SeaMonkey

Damn Bill, I guess there is no chance of manipulating a little dissention from the NDA, you are much to steadfast. Now if we could just find you and give that left arm a little twist...what wonders might be bestowed upon us?

It seems with engineers, that will be possible, but not on the scale as the Maginot line....check the FAQs.

No doubt you are probably right, it seems simple enough, using a U235 bullet to create critical mass or in the case of plutonium a conventional shaped explosive to compress it into critical mass. The US could produce the proximity fuse, why not an initiated explosion above ground with the shaped charge/plutonium model. Obviously its not as simple as it sounds....where's those nuclear scientists when you need them.

Come to think of it, your right JJ, Sputnik, was around 1958, correct? But that's intercontinental range, what about intracontinental?

You know reading through this thread again, I'm impressed with the effects suggested by With Clusters, psychological and the possibility of the government officials being take out. It would really prompt a nice little interceptor umbrella be maintained around ones capital eh! Besides that the moral question and command and control consequences could be far reaching as he enumerated...food for thought. Besides I'm not so convinced that Chris G's delivery idea should be fully discounted. I mean if we are going to incorporate a larger time spectrum for a scenario, wasn't rockets level 5 a possible delivery platform? Convince me otherwise JJ. What are our time limitations for development, given a world war motivational aspect?

I might add that the investment approximation level for the acquisition of the a-bomb in WW2 US dollars was 2 billion.

Sounds like you guys have got a handle on the various requirements for a-bomb allocation and obviously the effects are up to HC to design, with some real good ones already suggested. I believe there were some real models available from USA test records if they can be accessed. Now as far as nuclear capabilty technology, I believe Liam mentioned attaining level 4 or 5 or something to that effect. I'm thinking that it should be a two tier advancement from an intial allocation of some quantity of MPPs. One such value as JJ suggested, 600 MPPs gets the first advancement based on some percentage of chance. At that point you will be prompted for an additional investment to actually be given a weapon for use, again based on some degree of randomization. After accumulating one weapon, perhaps there should be a time period before the availability of an additional one, depending on national characteristics or maybe more MPP investment. I'm not particularly in love with these ideas but I know we could hash this out. The idea is an accurate historical model for the acquisition and use of nuclear weapons. Now shall we consider a third tier for nuclear technology depending on the time frame of the scenario...thermonuclear devices, or is this going the way of the missile delivery system?

I guess if this will be a consideration of SC2, we'll just have to be more definitive about how many a-bombs the US potential was in 1945 and beyond. I know of two facilities in the US adding(early 45) to the pile of fissional grade material, Oak Ridge(U235) and Hanford(plutonium), the question is how much?

Well it seems this hypothesis will have to wait for SC2. Thanks to all for participation. At least we smoked out a new feature of SC2, "uncooperative" status for allied countries, thanks Bill. I have to say that is a great suggestion and thanks to HC for making it a feature. I have to sit in silent wonderment in the potential of the SC2 editor, what a great second edition this will be.

Exactly Wachtmeister, that is in essence the problem with SC custom campaign editor. As the USA gears up its manufacturing war material capacity, the increase in MPPs should rise proportionally. Now once the Japanese have capitulated, which could have been earlier in 45, if the definition of the Emperor's status would have been agreed upon, the MPPs allotment for the USA should escalate considerably. I believe this scenario is not within the realm of the SC editor to simulate, but it will be interesting if JJ's suggestion produces the desired effect.

Anyone doubting the possibility of a WA return to the continent, needs to digest these figures. These are the percentages of total raw material productions for each nation in 1937. Granted these would be amplified in wartime, but they are relative ratios for the potential output basis. Now the one variable in this equation is the USSR, and how much of its possible production facing extinction would be relevant if its population was used as slave labor to extract and manufacture Axis resources. For simplification I will include iron, copper, lead, tin, zinc, and nickel under "Ores" category. For "Food", wheat, rice and meat. The Axis category will include France & its empire, LC & its empire, Italy, Norway, Greece, Sweden, Yugoslavia, the axis minors, and Japan. The WA=USA and UK and commonwealth. __________Coal___Oil____Ores____Rubber___Food WA________57.8___62.4___59.2____52.3_____41.9 USSR______9.3____10.6____4.5______i______14.6 Axis______25.3____5.4___17.2____39.7_____34.4 One note: of the Axis 39.7% rubber production, 33% of that came from Dutch East Indies/Guiana. The "i" means less that 0.1%

Well maybe! Remember SC has 50 mile hexes, so if you could simulate a full strategic/military resource destruction in one attack for one tile, would that be accurate enough?

The whole world? Doubt it Chris, but perhaps the relevant theatres with an abstracted connection. Use your imagination...the sky is the limit.

You guys are definitely on to something here. Logically, if we want to have a continuance of hostilities past 1945 then there needs to be some provision for nuclear weapons. Historical accuracy requires it, as we all know the first a-bombs were slated for use against Germany originally.

I don't know JJ, maybe. I've been fine tuning Sphinx in a couple of PBEMs with SC veterans, but if anyone can do it, its you. Main problem is the ratcheting up of the production(MPPs) figures for the US without giving them a lot initially. I have tried to post the statistics twice now and both got erased, but it is absolutely eye-opening the amount of raw materials the US and UK+ commonwealth had at their disposal. Even considering full USSR production for the Axis the imbalance is significant. In short, I do believe it is no pipe-dream the Allies could have come back and perhaps have kicked butt. In any event it would have made for a good contest and that's what this is all about.

Before I post the production figures for the participating major nations I would like to reiterate the relevancy of this "what if" scenario. Just like JJ's Brest-Litvosk Aftermath and my Sphinx these possibilities truly had a chance of becoming fact. Now think back, check your references, the time is June 21, 1942. Why 6-21-42, because that was my conception of the Axis high water mark for WW2. Think about it...the day Tobruk fell, the Nazis are rampaging across southern Russia on their second East Front Blitzkrieg, seemingly unstoppable. The Japanese are poised, threating India with invasion and besides all that the Axis powers were about to take control of the Med., Suez Canal, and the Persian oilfields or so it seems. Imagine the shock to Joseph Stalin, could you blame him for soliciting peace negotiations with the Germans. Historically it was not to be, but how close was it? The clock stands at late 1942 and the Allies, Britain and the USA, stand alone facing a long road back in the Pacific and Far East, not to mention the monumental task of mounting a return to the European continent.

Last night as I was contemplating the progression of this thread the thought DD has proposed of the similarities to the USA/USSR cold war conflict also became apparent to me. But in keeping with the originally proposed hypothesis I tried to keep the atom out of the loop. Keeping the development of atomic weaponry aside, I have to conclude that the economic might of the capitalistic/free market economic model would have eventually brought about the demise of the Fascist Empire just as it did the Soviet Union. But in the "mechanics" of our gaming thoughts there is no, well not as much, fun in that scenario as battling it out...in a game , of course. IRL we all would prefer the economic culmination. That said, if we are to draw upon the natural progression to nuclear weaponry, my leaning is the WA would have been triumphant. Reasoning being, the evolution of the A-bomb to a thermonuclear device would have brought about the destruction of the Axis reign. Surely with the added extra incentive, the Oppenheimer/Teller team would have delivered a working device sooner than the Axis scientists. Agree? Disagree?

I might add that once I get my internet connection back on line at home I intend to post the production figures from John Ellis' "Encyclopedia of WW2" for each belligerent, as Kuni suggested earlier. We may get some supplemental information to support some of our conclusions.

Looks like its just about all been said about this potential scenario although I would like to add one interesting observation. One of the first alpha AARs from GG's WAW had the Germans take the UK and push the USSR back to the Urals, Japan went out early. Granted the Russians had not surrendered, but the UK had been occupied, and the WA, in the words of the testers, cleaned the Axis clock in 1944. Whether this is a feasible "what if" is up to you to decide, but I believe that this game is heavy into the logistical aspects of WW2 and let's be perfectly candid here, we all know logistics is the premier factor governing wartime strategic operations.

Couldn't have said it better....excellent research and conclusions Wachtmeister, although I must play the devil's advocate here and say.. OK.. USA infrastructure creation is probably best in the world, but from Vladivostok(sp?) to the Urals? That's a damn long way.

John the 2nd brings a good point to the table to refute my idea of the UK fortress hypothesis in that the logistical lifeline could have been disrupted. My take is that there may have been an interruption, but only temporarely, due to evolving WA ASW techniques and of course intel intercepts of Enigma. What say yee group? Retributar contributes Hitler's meddling....definitely an historically accurate axiom. I'm going to put forth the premise that perhaps Hitler's meddling would not have been a consideration had the German armed forces exhibited more success, especially with the demise of the USSR as an accomplishment.

Oh yeah...good points all around, but let's be definitive here. We know the Nazi's history, let's not enter to many variables into a variable we are already trying to clarify. It is presumptuous of us to conclude that the Axis conquered populations would have shown anything but disdain in supporting them against the WA. Remember whatever the case is now, the western democracies did convey the bastion of freedom for the Earth's subjected peoples back in the era of WW2. As far as the eastern USSR theater of return to Europe, given the logistical considerations and the vastness of terrain to be travelled it doesn't seem to be a viable alternative. On the other hand the Middle Eastern area could supply a defensible base for at least a diversion and a strategic bombing campaign.

Excellent points as usual JJ. Let's discuss this western European air war a little further. Assuming the eventual capitulation of the USSR....say 42 or 43, did, could the WA (western allies) establish air superiority in the West? If so, as I remember, stationing intercepting squadrons around the jet air fields were most effective at keeping them "at bay". We still have not addressed the effectiveness of the night bombing campaign carried out by the British. If the Americans had been driven to the night by effective German jet intercepts, would it have proven to be any less effective than the daylight operations? The reason I'm addressing the strategic bombing campaign intricately is that I believe this could be the coin that tips the logistical statistics in favor of the WA. Yes? No?

Alright Watchmeister and Bill.....a shimmer of hope beckons....a light at the end of the tunnel. Of course this scenario would have to unfold over a period outside the historical time spectrum of WW2. I like the "peck away" strategy Watchmeister alluded to. Are there others?

Interesting....It seems the consensus opinion is the Allies would not be able to return. I'm still a bit undecided, not having access to my library to research this hypothesis. I have this vision of the UK as a giant fortress armed to the teeth with American war material while UK, Commonwealth, Free Nationals, and USA scientists spend late nights, "All alone with test tubes" Oh Oh Oh Ohhhhh :eek: The assembly lines of all free nations percolating away, around the clock, with a monumental amount of war materials being produced...ever driven by the obsession to free the rest of the world from the dark abyss of Fascism. I guess you can call me a dreamer..."But I'm not the only one".