Jollyguy

But if you're going to make it easier for the Axis to get Spain, which will happen if they 10 chits to England's 5, then you better balance it and give something to the Allies, probably something substantial...much more than just the US Pacific Fleet. This is because IMO if the Axis player gets Spain and is competant it's game over for the Allies. SC has always had an Axis bias, and if Spain can be gotten for cheap, then it will become a cookie cutter, as most Axis players will buy 10 chits ASAP. Bob

Now that I didn't know, that the eastmost Caucusses resource hexes can only go to 3 for the Axis w/out Turkey. Other than the Baku area the Caucusses are fairly defensible. Perhaps the Allied player has to make do with an Axis incursion there, and devolop a work around. In hindsight then I could have operated less to the Caucusses, but that's why you play Terif, to learn. Next time around I'll be Axis, and learn some more. Bob

Terif won his game as Axis. Terif played his usual flawless game. What he did was induce Iraq by taking Syria, then placed two airfleets, a level 4 tank, and his paratroop among other units on the Iranian border. Then around Russia entering he took Iran with a motorized corp, and Baku and their oilfield with his tank, the airfleets, and his paratroop. I had a 2 AT and IW corp there, but it didn't stand a chance against that level 4 tank. In Russia proper he just bulled forward. And when I tried to counter his Caucusses incursion he just retreated to the Iranian mountains. It was basically a raid, but threw me off balance. Then he hit Vichy France, and it was clear that with the start of minor collecting that he would win. Learned as usual, you always do playing the better players, you learn more and faster, which is why I don't mind losing to the premium players, because in the long run it improves your game. Bob

Wow, I finally beat Rambo, first time in I'm not sure how many attempts between SC 1 and SC 2. I think it shows that like them or not, SC 2 has many more moving parts than SC 1. Jon went the tech route while I went diplo, and it worked. One thing about playing Jon is he's not afraid to try new strategies, which he did here with those rockets. I'm thinking rocket tech would be great in a longer game, but they probably diverted mpps in his early game. And he let himself get hung up on Malta when he probably should have gone straight for Egypt. (In my game with Terif he didn't even bother with Malta). And then that hit on Spain I got knocking Franco to 39% from 52% readiness, I think that was really the turning point, as it prevented Rumania and Hungary from joining until Barby. I diverted many mpps after that for Spanish chits, and then got a couple hits on Russia, after which I bought more Spanish chits. When Russian came in they bought 5 Spanish chits, and the U.S. bought several when they joined. The interesting thing is once Spain rolled over to favoring the Allied side, the chits only cost me 50 mpps each, so they were a bargain. I think at my peak I had 13 Spanish chits going, but most were only 50 mpps each. On balance I got good luck, starting with the French diplo on Iraq, then hits on Spain and Russia, and even partisans. I got a partisan the first turn or so of Barby and several more thereafter, a couple which I was able to operate back for garrison duty. Luck balances out though, this time it just favored me. With Jon starved for mpps I was able to fall back slowly in Russia, and the capper was I paratrooped into Iran and invaded a basically empty Iraq with ten motorized units. Add that to Spain, and the Allies were outproducing the Axis by a huge margin. Anyway, learned as usual playing Jon. Everybody was saying rockets are useless, but he proved otherwise. Maybe he could have concentrated on them later, but once experienced and with tech, they're like cash in the bank as they don't take losses. All I could do at first was take it on the chin in London, and fall back at first in Russia. Bob

Quick update on these games: Rambo: His four rockets are now deployed in Russia and he is moving forward slowly. I still hold the forward city by the Black Sea and Leningrad, he has the three other central forward cities. As a counter to his rockets Uncle Joe developed advanced fighters and long range air, which takes potshots at his V-2’s when possible. Out West the Brits are dug in, and the US is in. He is moving on the capital of Vichy Algeria with two level 0 tanks but my British Marines are going to stand and fight and die, even though they could have evacuated earlier. He DOW’ed Yugo and goofed on his unit placement, and one of Tito’s damaged corps was able to dash to Budapest, forcing the surrender of Hungary. Tito held out several more turns, as I figured it was worth reinforcing, as he mainly had minor troops in the vicinity. The Danes held out several turns after surviving a 1 on DOW, and, he took Switzerland. I have Finland, he has all of the Med except Vichy Algeria. Iron Ranger: We got a good tcp session in last night, following two weeks of PBEM. This is the game of big naval battles, we’ve had three near Southern Spain, all which he got the better of. The latest one involved the American navy, which was escorting a convoy toward French Algeria. He sank and army, two US level 1 GWR and AS cruisers, and a BB and a British cruiser. I sank an Italian BB and a German cruiser. The US has air in the Med now, which accounted for the Italian BB. Missed getting one of his subs by one hit. I still hold Malta, and after transferring my US bomber there had the British Marines take the leftmost Italian African city, after the US bomber spotted the area. In Russia he took Moscow and the city above it, as I was thin, seeing as I had assembled a large Caucusses force. Once my paratroop was ready he took Iran, and the rest of my force moved into Iraq, which fell in about two turns. He thought about defending around Syria, but pulled out an army, HQ, and corp, after I took his leading corp. Turkey looks wide open, and my paratroop is preparing for his next possible next jump. Meanwhile my Russian scientists have been productive, and figured out motorization 1 which helped move over the Iraq mountains, and in the last handful of turns before we logged-off I got up to level 4 tanks. So, with the Middle East cleared, I pushed forward with those tanks in center Russia even though it was the dead of winter. He only has AT 1, so the snow saved him, but my tanks exacted moderate damage. In England he tried to bait me earlier. He sank a corp destined for Ireland and his combined German/Italian navy swarmed the western side of the Home Islands, while an Italian amphib hoped to find an empty Scapa Flow, which I had garrisoned. The RN weighed anchor for safer ports and the RAF repositioned, but I didn’t challenge him. England is now almost wall-to-wall units, so Sea Lion is defensed. So instead he invaded Spain, where he only has level 1 tanks. Winter hit, which is where we left it. Terif: What can you say, flawless execution by Terif. He waited until September 1941to invade Russia, along with taking Tunisia, Syria, Benelux, and Denmark all in the same turn But now that his Barbarossa is well progressed I can report that in this game I got the worst Russian research luck in about two dozen SC 2 games played. Not the type of luck you want when playing the Master. I went over a year of being fully funded with only one Russian advance. Such is the luck of the die throw. Then I got four in one turn, then mostly quite again. Then he showed level 4 tanks and level three AT and IW for his Brest garrison, so I felt I had no option but to overfund my AT and IW and hope I got some advances, as he was just going to steamroll me with high tech against my low tech units. I evacuated two of my front cities after he kicked off Barbarossa, otherwise they would have been wasted cannon fodder. He’s hitting me from Iraq with two air, and just took Iran with a corp. Out west I’m not quite ready to move, and the US is up to about 75% readiness. Bob

I think I'm in the Sea Lion is okay camp. I've got no Sea Lion going in two games, me Allies, but did not exploit it, and I lost Egypt in both. I played as if Sea Lion could happen, even though I realized I could have evacuated England. I did take Vichy Algeria in both, but did not advance on Tunisia, because IMO that opens the Allied player up to Sea Lion. Blashy said Sea Lion and Turkey are both fixed for 1.03, so I'm willing to wait and see. I think Sea Lion should be a viable Axis option, just a little harder. Bob

Hit the wrong button. Anyway, so I slap an eight and think I'm done, then I go to e-mail the turn and notice my mistake. So now my Rambo turn is saved under the wrong name. And then, if I go into play the IronvBob turn, it's actually Rambo's turn...not my saved turn. Hard to believe, but it's happened many times. What I do now is play and mail one turn at a time, but I wasn't paying attention and it happened again today, first time in quite awhile because I try to be careful, and I think it was Iron Ranger's turn, but I couldn't be sure, so I mailed what I had and figured the recipient will let me know if they can't open the turn. But then I'll have to replay the turn, which sucks. Bob

I reported this awhile ago, but here's exactly how it happens: About every 5 or 10 turns I go to save, and instead of the recent loaded turn it jumps to the last game in the queue. I.e., I was playing a turn BobvRambo63, so you would think that turn would prompted, I add a "4", and have BobvRambo64. But what happens is the last saved turn in the queue is let's say IronvBob27. If I'm not paying attention, or I got up to do something and came back, I slap an "8"

Yes, in my game with Rambo the Finns were subjugated easily, a rare event I believe in SC 2. It was interesting to note that once Russia entered the game Hungary and Rumania readiness increased despite Spain being below 40% readiness (Franco is at 27% now, I got another hit). And then one of them got concerned when I DOW’ed Finland, and both eventually joined. I can’t remember when I purchased my last Spanish chit, but from a cost/benefit perspective probably not worth buying another one too close to Barbarossa if these two minors are likely to come in anyway once Uncle Joe does. And speaking of Uncle Joe, higher Russian readiness due to diplomacy hits meant the Motherland could go on a spending spree, but where the money was spread around has to remain a State secret. Yea, those V-2 rockets of Rambo’s, having been transferred from the Malta campaign, are raining down on London, his form of the London Blitz. The Russians are reading about it all in Pravda, and anxious whether those experienced rocketeers will get transferred to the Eastern Front. Three turns into Barbarossa, and Rambo took his first Russian city, the northern one near Germany. In Egypt I didn’t reinforce once, I let a lone English corp and the Commonwealth troops fend for themselves as best they could. In my other games Iron Ranger has kicked off Barbarossa, and just intercepted a portion of the RN near Spain, sending three of my ships to the bottom at the cost of one of his Italian BBs. But England itself is massively garrisoned and US readiness keeps edging up, so the threat of Sea Lion is past. In that game I still hold Egypt and Malta, and Spain and the Scandanavians are neutral. He took Tunisia a couple turns ago, and the Finns joined, with Leningrad still holding but probably not for much longer. In my game with Terif if you remember he avoided DOW’ing Denmark AND Benelux, but I got one Russian diplomacy hit to makeup for it. He took Egypt and I think Iraq went his way, and my British Marines just took that Vichy territory with two cities, the one to the left of Tunisia. My bomber still holds Malta, and Scandanavia is neutral. Actually, as of April 1941, Terif has not attacked one Minor.

bump.

bump.

I'll bump up the two leagues. There is also an opponent finder forum, but I've found opponents more readily in the leagues, as people who sign up are more likely to want to play. Bob

Yea, luck is a factor, but I'm okay with that, as it adds variability. In another pbem game I have going my Russian research is so bad that I've been max'ed out at 1000 for almost a year, with only one hit that entire time. If the Russian scientists don't get started in that one I could be in trouble. Bob

The game with Rambo has taken an interesting turn, as games with him often do. He is now up to four rockets, at least tech two, as they’re hitting from four hexes away, making things uncomfortable for the denizens of London. In hindsight he was bound and determined to try this strategy, as he attacked France with low tech infantry, so my guess is he was marshaling mpps for rockets and research chits. He also hit Syria with units that had to have had at least level two or three amphib tech, both Germany and Italy. However, the Allies have been busy on other fronts, like diplomacy. Rambo got one hit around the French campaign to knock Spain to 52% readiness. Being reactive I had not bought any diplomatic chits yet, willing to take the less than 1 in 100 chance of a 40% plus/minus chance of a huge Spanish readiness jump. So, I bought two chits for Franco, as that’s all I could buy, as I had three on Russia already, and eventually I got a 13% move…to 39% Spanish readiness. I wasn’t sure if Rambo knew that that Romania and Hungary will not join if Spain is less than 40% readiness (as mentioned in Terif’s SC 2 players guide), so I replaced that chit, but couldn’t buy more Until Russia hit. Then one of the Russian chits hit, so I bought another Spanish one; then, so many turns later, another Russian chit hit, followed by the final one also. So Russia was up to the mid 60% in readiness, and I ended up with five chits on Spain to try to preserve that 39%. At that point Rambo commented about Spanish readiness. I could afford all this, as the French had induced Iraq to start the convoys, and with Rambo hung up around Malta, I was still getting the Egyptian convoys. So, as we sit, April 1941, Romania and Hungary have not joined, Russian readiness is in the 80%s, and I still hold Egypt, but that will fall soon, as Rambo has a fair German/Italian contingent down there. Iraq has joined the Axis. On the naval front I’ve sunk I believe three subs, as when you play Rambo you don’t want him to get too many of those. I have lost my bomber when it got trapped on Malta by those damned rockets. Bob

I don't agree with Blashy's statement either. I'm not saying the game is precisely balanced 50/50, but IMO it's much closer than SC 1 was after two patches, and for all players other than Terif I believe a competent Axis opponent can be beaten by a competent Allied player X% of the time. There are a lot more moving parts in SC 2 than SC 1, and with the two house rules in effect, particularly Turkey, IMO a good Allied player has a fair chance of beating a good Axis player. As Terif says, there are more ways for for an Axis player to mess up than the Allies. If the Axis player takes his eye off the ball at a crucial time, it can cost him, and perhaps the game. And tactics are still emerging. Iron Ranger DOW'ed Denmark to get at Rambo's subs. If you ever played Rambo you'd know that taking out his subs is important, but DOW'ing Denmark to get into the Baltic, who'd have thunk? And Rambo using two rockets on Malta...it worked. My bomber got trapped, and he took Malta faster than I've seen it done so far, and with only one German and one Italian airfleet to soften it up. So, I think Blashy's assertion is both premature and incorrect. Bob

Okay, this one ended in an Axis victory. Blashy gave me a run for my money, but once Spain threw their hat in the ring with Adolf, I changed strategy and started collecting minors in Rambo-like fashion, one after the other. By the end of the game the only minors not in were Greece, Turkey, Iran, and Ireland. Because of minor collecting my Barbarossa was anemic, only capturing the four front cities. I then concentrated on Leningrad, then the mines and that area. Then, after taking Rostov following incredible bloodletting, and crossing the Don River and moving east to try to cut Russia in half, Blashy hit me with something like 14 corps at IW and AT 3, in basically human wave attacks. He pushed me back to Rostov, where I stabalized the front. We parried back-and-forth some more, but I eventually wore him down. Out West he was able to put Paris under siege, but never took it. I got up to advanced aircraft 3, which was enough to attrit his lesser tech airfleets trying to soften Paris, where I had anti-air 2. Without Egypt Britain was mpp starved and probably funding Russia as best she could, and each US army/corp destroyed meant he had to replace them from the US, which is time consuming. Eventually I was able to put my Germans on the offense in Russia and the Italians out West the same turn. IMO the Western Allies need help when Spain comes in. As Terif said months ago, if Spain comes in, it's virtually game over against a competent Axis opponent. All the Axis has to do is collect minors. By the end of the game I was uas up to 545 mpps for Germany during the summer, and 100 for the Italians. That seems out of balance, that the Italians out produce the Brits, and the Germans produce twice the US, and with all those units as a head start too. Meanwhile I was planning on hitting Greece, then Turkey, to up my Africa holdings. But even then, I think changes should be gradual, but there should help out West for the Allies when Spain comes in, and Turkey needs to be fixed, and Sea Lion should be just a bit harder. Without Spain the Axis has a harder time. With luck in my game with Terif the Axis won't get Spain, and I'll get to see how an Axis game proceeds accordingly. Bob

Well, never may be too close to certainity, we'll see what happens. But keep in mind we do have two house rules intended to level the playing field, recommended by the Master himself. And basically these Terif created house rules are like patches in themselves, until the official patches arrive. Against Terif I have little expectation of winning, just learning, and seeing how he did France was worth the price of admission. Of the other two games I believe I have the best chance against Iron Ranger, perhaps because he has fewer SC 2 games under his belt. But he did beat Liam as Allies, who beat me as Allies, so if I beat IR it's a W in my book. Against Rambo you never know as he's so adaptable, but again, I'll learn. But in my mind I'm staying in practice for 1.03, which should address some of the balance issues. Sure, I like winning, but I also like challenging games. Bob

No, they're not all ganging up on me at once, playing in separate games. Here's a synopsis of interesting aspects of each game, I'm Allies in all three games, with no Southern Turkish invasion in all three, and no pussy scouting with corps/armies of neutrals. In Rambo and Terif's game it's no Sea Lion until Barbarossa, with Iron Ranger Sea Lion is okay : Iron Ranger: France fell late, August, 1940. Iron Ranger (IR) then got bogged down with Malta, where I planted an entrenched bomber. Turns kept moving along, Malta held out, and then all of sudden Gibralter got attacked from both sides. I had my Canadian cruiser in port and it held two turns, but against determined sub attacks it visited the deep. Then the largest naval engagement I believe either of us has ever taken part in ensued. IR had manuevered his entire German fleet toward Gibralter, to meet up with the Italians. My entire navy was intact, and we slugged it out...like two old men as IR said. We were both so low on supply that the damage meted out was low on both sides. With only a spotting range of one there were many surprise engagements. I think we each lost a similar number of ships, maybe 5 each, then, arm weary, both backed off. It appeared IR had purchased a couple extra German subs, so we'll see how that effects his Barbarossa, which just kicked off. 2) Rambo: The interesting thing here is that he has two, count em', two, rockets arrayed against Malta. He told me I should leave, but I said I've always wanted to own my own island. I foolishly planted a BB in port, which hit an Italian BB, level 1, but then promptly got sank the next turn. Several turns have passed and the bomber holds, against the rocket and Luftwaffe attacks. I also lost a carrier near France in a sloppy move, and earlier found Rambo's starting sub all the way at the west part of the board, at which point we both got trapped in ice, his sub, and about 8 of my ships. It was the battle of the frozen pond, as we were both able to attack, albeit less effectively. I sank him, but my ships ended up at 0 supply, and it took many extra turns to get back to England. Terif: Game's early. Terif was able to destroy a slightly weakened French army, and then moved through the Maginot, never having had to DOW Benelux. But the French got lucky and held even with Paris surrendered, until Late April or early May. Bob [ August 03, 2006, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Jollyguy ]

IMO in patch 1.02 it is reckless for the Allied player to get too adventurous too early and not expect to get Sea Lion'ed. The Brits need to fully protect one or the other, England or Egypt. If you spread yourself too thin you can lose both, and possibly the war. I am fully in Terif's court on a house rule of no Sea Lion until Russia is in, and no Southern Turkish invasion period. Rambo and I just started a 1.02 PBEM game, and both those rules are in effect. But at the same time IMO even in 1.03 if the Brits get too adventurous a Sea Lion should be a valid response by the Axis, because the game can become unbalanced in favor the Allies otherwise. Bob Bob Bob

I agree with Sombra, IMO air is NOT too powerful in SC 2. Yes, at times they’re a great help especially when the opponent can’t field interceptors, but on balance they do their part of combined about right in this game. Tanks are the monsters, but I’m okay with that as they add an important element of ground offense. And infantry at level 3 AT can exact a toll on tanks, especially on the attack, as Blashy is demonstrating against my level 4 German armor in the game we have going. Bob

And here's the US league. Bob

This is Panzerliga, the European league. Click the link to the manual and it will take you there. Bob

There are two leagues going, I'll bump them both. Bob

I agree with DT and Sombra about operating. This has been a gripe of mine since SC 1, and it primarily favors the Axis. IMO we have production pools that force planning on what to purchase, so maybe we should have something similar for operating. There is no way entire army and tank groups could move thousands of miles in one or two weeks and be fully equipped and ready to fight. Maybe there should be an operating pool, where the unit is placed for operating movement which occurs one or two or three turns later. Of course the simplest approach in a beer and pretzels game would be to just make operating more expensive, like amphib is, perhaps calibrated to the distances involved. Believe me, with the reduced mpps in SC 2, I think twice about amphib’ing something, especially a tank or army. So if operating was equally expensive it would abstractly accomplish a lot within the parameters of the game system. DT has other good points, but on balance I’m going to come down squarely on Blashy’s side. If you don’t like something in the game, use the editor or check out a mod. I just checked, and Honch’s global war mod has 185 posts, which might be a record for a single topic, perhaps as much or more than the amphib post a few months ago. And there are also house rules. In SC 1 the handicap system evolved within the community, and no landings on a major DOW nor RRI also became standard. Some players limited the number of airfleets that could be built. In SC 2 no Southern Turkey invasion looks like a must until Turkey is patched, and IMO no Sea Lion until Russia enters is also probably a good house rule (both of course recommended by Terif). If an opponent in a game requested me to not have diplomacy by either side, or no diplomacy against majors, I would be okay with that as long as we played mirror games. So like Timskorn said, the game is what it is. You either like or you don’t, and if you don’t like the standard 39 scenario, mod it or house rule it, and if you don’t want to do any of these, then SC 2 isn’t the game for you. But in closing, SC 2 is already a great game, and IMO has even more potential. SC 1 was well supported with 7 patches, with many, many, many of the changes arising from bugs and flaws pointed out (oftentimes heatedly) on these discussion forums. So I have no doubt that SC 2 version 1.03 will have many upgrades compared to 1.02, and so on. Bob

I agree with Liam, it's the opponents that make a game, and in this case that means head-to-head. I for one am still having a blast with SC 2 and think I will for some time. I've had opponents pull all kinds of stuff on me and vice versa, and that's the spice of a game, what keeps it from growing stale. Some have complained about diplomacy, but its those "Texas Leaguers" or "Seeing Eye Singles" that you remember, (those are American baseball terms btw). In the game with Blashy where I got a 40% Spanish boost in one turn, man, that has turned into a great game. And then the same thing happened but benefited Timskorn. I've had games where Russian readiness has moved up and down; had my convoys turned off; been Sea Lion'ed and vice-versa; Had my Axis opponent activate Sweden; had Murmansk captured under my nose by Blashy; had a great game with Rambo that ebbed and flowed all across the board including the US and until 1945 and probably could have gone the distance; had Sombra show me (unwittingly) how to conduct offensives. Sorry that this poster is already bored, but IMO SC 2 will hold my interest for quite awhile. I think players need to play a multitude of other players, as each of us has different propensities that come through in how we implement our play, and this game has enough depth to allow many, many strategies. Bob