Jollyguy

Never give a sucker an even break! Was that good ol’ P.T. Barnum, or W.C. Fields, I can’t remember. Anyway, the reason I like playing John and other good players is simply because you learn more and learn it faster. I’m posting these AAR’s regardless of whether I win, and trying to do it in a matter-of-fact fashion, and for the good of other SC 2 players. It should take months to figure out this game and dig deep into its nuances, then a patch will come along, and that will take time. So in the meantime I’ll post. I also read all AAR’s posted, where I pick up numerous tidbits along the way. And yes, I do believe John has a viable strategy. We have a new game platform here and he is just trying things out, something he’s good at. As to the carriers I lost. IMO they are almost useless in SC 2. In SC 1 they were potential monsters, but IMO in SC 2 they are basically eunuchs. England just cannot afford to upgrade them and pay for them to get experience like in SC 1. I would trade each of my carriers for a cruiser straight up, as cruisers with ASW in SC 2 are much better at fighting subs. In SC 2 you have two new kids on the block, tanks and subs. John is experimenting with putting both to good use. Bob

An update on this game. Shortly after France fell Rambo hit Spain, which held on for quite awhile, I think six turns. At the same time we had a naval battle around Brest that cost me two carriers, and in which I counted 5 advanced subs. After that battle I evacuated Brest for safer shores. Then he hit Norway, and they survived two armies landing. I goofed and didn’t transport a corp to a northern city, and then he op’ed units up there, including an army, which cost him something. I don’t think I’ve seen Norwegian partisans, so he must still have Norway garrisoned. Then he took Gibraltar, while slowing attriting Malta, which he eventually took…with the help of a rocket! In the meantime no big Egypt battle like last time, so I took Tobruk. However, because he took Spain early, only one of his minors, Bulgaria, joined, with Rumania and Hungary stuck. Turn after turn after turn passed and the other two minors didn’t join, so he finally used chits to get Rumania in. Since they were landlocked I hit Rumania instead of Finland, but I got caught in mud and now winter, demonstrating how weather can so greatly effect things. I didn’t isolate Rumania fully and he op’ed in his Bulgarian units, probably not wanting to commit a valuable German HQ, as I have a fairly large contingent in the area, and I now have Rumania blockaded, but who knows for how long. I then hit Syria and took it with the help of my English tank, pissing off the Iraqi’s and Iranians, but they’re always pissed off, even to this day, so what’s new? So that’s where we stand. US is in the mid 60s readiness and finally moving up, as it’s February , and I still hold England and Egypt. As far as I can see Rambo is shy on land units, as not having Rumania and Hungary all those turns cost him mpps, plus investing in subs. Bob

And I want to make clear that IMO SC 2 is a masterpiece. As a platform the sky is the limit. What we're doing here is not complaining by any stretch, just giving input on how to make the game even better. Two heads are better than one, and scores of beta testers are better than a handful. That's all that's happening, is the legion of informal beta testers are now reporting in, especially the premium players (which I am NOT one by any stretch), who take time to disect the game and strategies and for any number of reasons simply understand it better than other players, and are more talented at doing it. I listen to the premium players and incorporate their strategies into my games for one reason...they work. Bob

I am going to have to make it a third and agree on some of the points made by Hellraiser and Terif. In my game against Rambo I was constantly aware that once the English Home Islands fell, that the US/Canada were under a real and constant threat of Axis invasion. With the standard unit limits in place there is no safe way to protect the US coastline. Assuming the Brits are committed to Egypt, all the Axis player would have to do is count the US units in the field, tie those down, go on the defensive in Russia, and dispatch a level five tank force to North America. The combined German/Italian navy is strong enough that with level 3 or 4 subs, they could clear the way, and scout the coastline, and simply punish the Allies with amphib landings before they could react. The other problem for the Allies is if they lose the English Home Islands, is that if they also lose Gibralter, the turns that their supply gets effected they run the risk of permenantly losing units. In my game with Rambo, after I took Tunisia and then he hit me with his 3 tank, level 5 counter strike, Gibralter supply kicked in and knocked some of my cities below 5. I lost one of my 2, level 3 US tanks in the fray even though it was in or near a city, and boom, that tank was gone forever from my queue. This also could be a problem, as the Axis will have more opportunity to permenently attrit the western allies. And like water seeking its own level, I am currently in a game where I am in the middle of employing Rambo's strategy. It's 1943 and I penetrated to Moscow, but the Russians with the Siberians are hitting back. So what I'm going to do is pull a tactical retreat and start collecting minors, starting with Switzerland, then Spain, et al. I have an Axis bomber out west and my entire Italian navy at France, at level 2 gun laying radar, I'll do like John did, and once pushed back to my German border out east, use punitive offensives to wear down the Russians. It's a non-ladder game, so a good beta of the strategy. The difference is that John started collected minors early, but we'll see how it works. I suspect this could be a problem, as I have about 10 games under my belt now, and its clear that in most instances the Axis player simply does not bother hitting Russia hard to begin with, and many times does not even bother DOW'ing them. This is historically anomolous, as in SC 1, with a properly handicapped game, if Russia wasn't hit hard and fast, the game would likely result in an Allied victory if the Allied player was competent. I love the fluidity of SC 2, but like the Dutch boy with his fingers in the dike, I'm beginning to think that by fixing one problem, transports not having to linger offshore, that a leak popped up somewhere else, making it harder to protect agaisnt level 5 tank attacks. I beleive the intent was for this to work against the Axis by making them more susceptible to landings on their expansive coastline, but the Axis can capitalize too, as the Allies also have a fair amount of coastline to protect. And by creating build limits, it handicaps the Western Allied ability to protect their coastlines more, particularly the US, and more so when combined with the small US navy. If John's collect minors strategy becomes standard, then once most players get X number of games under their belts, the Axis will again be in a superior position similar to SC 1 that will need to be handicapped. The Axis will be able to establish an expansive economic base that will give them the resilency in most cases to counter Allied incursions. Bob

Okay, this one ended in an Axis (Rambo) victory. I resigned in June of 1945, could have fought on for two more years, but the balance of power shifted to the Axis, but I'm not much for playing games where victory is likely not attainable. Seeing as Hellraiser and the American Baron are embroiled in a game where the Brits also moved to Alexandria, I'll give you a general rundown of the action and my opinion. The apex of Allied (my) power was pushing west in Africa and taking Tunisia, while at the same time taking Sicily and the Italian boot city. But by then Rambo had reinforced his Italian and German navies, and got them both up to gun layng radar two, and contrary to the other poster who has minimized naval power, John put his combined Axis navy to superb use. He sealed off the Med at the occasional cost of getting hit by my air, and then steadily rolled me back. He establshed a three tank, level 5 raiding group, and cleared me out of Italy, then Tunisia, and then all the way back to Tobruk. He was slow, steady, and patient. He presaged his Med advances by first delivering a powerful offensive in Russia, then another, where I had reclaimed all but one city. So, while he was advancing out west, I was repairing in the east. The turning point was a climatic battle of Tobruk. I had pulled back and was in the process of setting up a defensive line around my final English capital, and fearful of his teched up tank raiders, when he came right at me, backed up by level four fighters in Greece and his beefed up navy. It was a short, sharp battle, but when the smoke cleared he had much more left standing in Africa than I. Then he moved in Russia, with lesser but still advantageous result. So, here's my take on the game: 1) When I had the upper hand in the Med, John did the correct thing IMO, and collected minors, as he was going to eventually need the economic base. 2) John is good at keeping one off balance. We also had a battle of the arrows at the bottom of the board, where he placed his Axis navy mid-game. This made me tech up my navy in order to get units to Africa, and cost me time. 3) John also did tactical retreats well. He had no problem retreating in the Med and living to fight another day, same in Turkey. 4) Tech is paramount in this game. I tried to have a low tech Allied force hold Turkey, and it didn't work, even in the mountains. I should have operated over high tech Russians, which I did eventually to reclaim the capital, but meanwhile it cost me time and units. IMO a smart player will play his tech advantage to the opponents tech weakness, and like in poker, draw to his advantage and make the other players pay to beat you. 5) IMO if the British capital moves to Alexandria, the Axis needs to take this seriously, and slowly build-up down there. If the Axis can take Alexandria he knocks them out of the war, while if the Allies get entrenched in the Med, the Axis has a big underbelly to protect. 6) Losing Gibralter hurts at times, as when Allied supply is effected some cities and ports are knocked below 5, which if this happens at an inopportune time, can trap Allied units, or impede they're ability to amphib, transport, or operate. 7) As the Axis I suspect John went hi-tech for both industiral/manufacturing techs. Eventually he kicking out units and repairing them at a fast clip. 8) I finally had to reclaim Turkey, as it occured to me that if he broke through he could come in behind Alexandria and take out the Brits. He almost poured into Iraq before I was able to stem his advance. 9) The Russians as non-cooperative Allies mean the Western Allies cannot operate into Russia, or vice-versa. I even moved my American bomber into Russia at one point, but without an HQ he had zero supply, as the Russian don't supply Western Allied units. 10) Long range air could be valuable. Had I had more advances I would have been able to spot things. So IMO a bomber is a valuable unit. 11) Tanks are the kings of this game, hand's down, and to counter you need good fighters, which hit tanks fairly well. It's like rock, paper, scissors, you need to counter your opponents advantages. 12) Interestingly, we were both locked in the struggle so long, that Sweden never go invaded. I intended to, but could never spare the expeditionary force, and I guess same for John. 13) Urals industry really helps the Russians, especially if they can rollback the Axis advance at some point. I think at one point I was up 475 Russian mpps per turn, which included Turkey and Finland for Russia. All-in-all it was a great game. I think a handful of better moves on my part as the Allies could have turned the tide, but live and learn, John is a great player, and there is no doubt that I learn more playing him in less time than against any number of less experienced players. Bob

I think I mentioned this before, but most times the cursor highlights the pbem turn just played, and you just add the next number in the sequence. I.e. after saving the game it highlights BobvSoandSo21, you add a two, and you have BobvSoandSo22. But about 1 in 20 times the cursor highlights an entirely different game turn, I believe the last one in your folder, and if you're not paying attention you add the next number in the sequence, but you've actually saved it as another game. I.e., your not looking, and the cursor highlights BobvWhatshisname42, you add a three, and now you've saved it incorrectly. This has happened numerous times, and other players have reported the same confusion to me. Bob

This one is different in that Rambo is perfecting his minimum in Poland then hit the west early strategy. What he did was hit the Poles with just enough to take Warsaw, and then DOW’ed Benelux quickly and into France with mainly corps. The Poles took two more turns to surrender, at which time I had them retreating west and forming a wall of Allied zones-of-control so he couldn’t operate units west. Poland surrendered in December. The luck element is that he got extended fall and then short winter weather, so it’s worked well for him in France, Paris will fall at the end of April, while Denmark has not been DOW’ed yet. In the Med I’ve disabled Tobruk and its port, using the French navy and my bomber; What I did was induce an early Italian entry by amphib’ing two French corps. One corp took an unoccupied Tripoli, the other landed and hit an Italian cruiser in port at Tobruk. I then sent the French navy to the Italian boot and hit his 5 strength sub to little effect. That's where it stands for now. Bob

Yes, interesting game. I have the Turkish capital back, but lost two African cities, Tunisia and Tripoli. Also landed on the Italian boot and took Sicily and the south boot city, but pulled out of both. Those level five amphib tanks are hard to stand up against without solid entrenchment and then air support. A three or four tank amphip task force is quite potent. Malta still holds, I moved the corp out to try to capitalize on my Africa/Italy moves, but amphibed a corp just in case, which came in handy, as when JR saw Malta empty he jumped on it and disabled the port. But my bomber could see all his subs, so it was no problem for the captains of the transports to weave around danger and land the corp even without a port. One thing I think we're both learning is that holding trophy cities near the frontline isn't of much value if it leaves you open for punishing, multi-unit loss counter-moves. I had every Russian city back except the north one by Finland, then JR launched a punitive offensve, and me in return. He is moving back into Russia now, but mud and then winter hit, so it seems at the moment that its a see-saw in Russia, except that the Russians have good hitting power, so it's not like the early game where the Axis gets his way and all the Russians can do is fall back; the Axis gets a bloody nose regularly. But I can see his level 5 tanks, so what I suspect is that the give-and-take war of attrition in Russia will break one direction eventually. Meanwhile, out west, the Americans and Brits are assembling a potent teched-up strike force. I'm keeping my eye on his navy and tracking units. The Allies will have their pick of landing areas, the only question is which part of the expansive Axis coastline that they'll hit. Bob

The only other variables that I can recall are 1) There were Gibralter supply effects, as I've lost England 2) Rambo as Axis DOW'ed Turkey, then took the capital 3) Rambo as Axis DOW'ed Tunisia early in the game, but I can't recall if I as Allies had taken Tunisia yet 4) I held Tobruk and the second city to the west, it was the middle Italian city that held the Turkish corp. Bob

Am playing Allied side, and Rambo DOW’ed Turkey, which eventually rolled. In the meantime, I had a Turkish corp garrisoning one of my central African cities, which the British had captured earlier. The English also controlled the African city to west and east of the Turkish garrisoned city. When Turkey surrendered the garrisoned city went Axis. IMO Turkish cities within Turkey proper should of course go Axis if unoccupied, but not African cities that the English had previously taken. If by chance I had this Turkish corp on a capital city, lets say Baghdad or Tehran or even my third British capital of Alexandria, would the same anomalous result have occurred? Would England possibly have surrendered simply because Turkey, hundreds of miles away, surrendered? Bob

Am playing Allied side, and Rambo DOW’ed Turkey, which eventually rolled. In the meantime, I had a Turkish corp garrisoning one of my central African cities, which the British had captured earlier. The English also controlled the African city to west and east of the Turkish garrisoned city. When Turkey surrendered the garrisoned city went Axis. IMO Turkish cities within Turkey proper should of course go Axis if unoccupied, but not African cities that the English had previously taken. If by chance I had this Turkish corp on a capital city, lets say Baghdad or Tehran or even my third British capital of Alexandria, would the same anomalous result have occurred? Would England possibly have surrendered simply because Turkey, hundreds of miles away, surrendered? Bob

Tito is Yugo's Stongman. Say Re Yay Oh, is Sarejvo. I'm not sure if Tito could ever be bought as an HQ, but that would be a nice opton.

Yes, Patton is spitting mad that the US Navy let his convoy get dinged up, but they made it to the arrows nevertheless. Awaiting him are two US Armored units, which attacked Tripoli this turn. Meahwhile, some British commandoes liberated an unoccupied Sicily, and report the pasta, red wine, and Italian women to be to their liking. Tito is reinforced to 8.

Conceded my Allied game vs. Liam as Axis. IMO Liam played a great game, as mentioned, the first SC 2 game for both of us. He adapted better than myself to the nuances of SC 2, and did what you have to do as an Axis player, which is hit Russia hard and don’t let up, while playing a delaying game out west for as long as possible. What happened is that he was so weak after Egypt that he didn’t DOW Russia, and actually took a couple turns to start a limited invasion. But once he got going he just kept coming, slowly but surely. He would take turns to repair and upgrade, then push forward again. What I should have done is first, shifted away from research and have more units in the queue earlier than I did. And second, waited just a bit more to launch my counter-offensive in Russia. What he did was bait me with a couple understrength corps and an army, which I took out, but then he landed hard on me with his level 5 tanks, the real monsters of SC 2. When our massive battle in the steppes was over he was left standing with a battered but still offensively capaable force, while I was left with a handful of units that had to go on the defensive. I was going to take Norway and then Sweden, and then retreat to redoubts in Russia, but with Russia broken he would have been able to catch his breath and start shifting forces west, while still pushing forward like a bulldog in the east. The other very interesting thing of note is that Liam did not attack Spain or Vichy or Sweden or even Yugoslavia, until after they went Allied. My guess is he had level 4 or 5 industrial and that other tech, manufacturing? I can’t remember its name. He probably also had some infrastructure So he went with that and focused primarily on Russia. I want a rematch, me as Allies again, a ladder game, but haven’t heard back yet. Bob

Yes, sharp brief action in Greece. Debated whether to reinforce more, but opted for a token force and wait to see if it would hold. The Greek corp held up to four land units landings and two or three air attacks, and Rambo's land units were out of supply, so IMO had a fair chance. But he got some good dice rolls from his air the next turn, and it fell. Rambo DOW'ed Turkey! I was going to do this in X number of turns, so I believe the only minor not embroiled in this full map war is Sweden. In Turkey he'll get a city and port to 8, me a capital and two cities to 20, 10, 10 respectively. IMO I could handle a Black Sea incursion no problem. In Russia, the Siberians arrived and Urals industry transferred, and as far as I can tell, the Urals mpps will equal or exceed Spain and Rumania's combined. As to fighting on the Russian front I've liberated an empty Smolensk, and one mine. My level 5 tanks took out one of his highly experienced level 4 or 5 tanks, three of my tanks taking heavy damage. I expect to lose one and possibly two of my tanks the next turn, at which point we'll see if he's going to stand and fight, or pull back and form a defensive line. Bob

Bump.

Dave; I'm going to bump up the post about the ladder. Bob

But at the same time that's not to say amphib landings couldn't be tweaked. But from a game balance perspective if your making things easier, mainly on the Brits and Sea Lion, then you would have to take something away from them also, or give the Germans something else. As it is now Sea Lion is a real threat, and forces the Brits to make hard choices with their limited resources. I don't know what the answer is, but there have been some very good suggestions on this thread. Bob

I agree w/Rambo. If you want to prevent landings, build corps. People bitched about transports in SC 1, so it got fixed, and now their bitching about that. The fact is that England can't have the best of all worlds, it didn't have enough resources in the real war to be everywhere at once, and it certainly shouldn't in this game. So the Allies need to pick: 1) Fight in the Middle East with the risk of a Sea Lion 2) Protect against a Sea Lion with the risk of losing the Middle East 3) Put chits against Spain with the risk of not having enough to around in other areas. And at least the Brits get a respectable Middle East force in SC 2, compared to SC 1 Bob

I forgot to check, but do the Swiss start 6 entrenched? If so, they could be somewhat time consuming nut for JR to crack, as having a city this time compared to SC 1, to reinforce from, could make the Swiss a bit more stubborn. Two turns of attacks later, including from several air units, and both armies are still a 8. In Russia, Stalin is feeling pretty good and just issued extra rations of vodka. June 42, and still only two cities under the Nazi yoke, all quiet elsewhere. The English have disrupted supply a couple times, same for the French, and those Irish once I believe. Bob

Ah, thanks Hubert. I have seen players do this several times, but with pbem and several games going at once its easy to lose track of readiness sometimes.

An interesting thing I've noticed is why bother DOW'ing Russia? All Allied players will pull their heavy units back, so doesn't seem to be any value in it from the Axis side, as it only bumps up the US and who knows how else.

IMO, something should be done regarding repair of naval units. The games I’ve played so far have been great compared to SC 1 in the size and breadth of naval engagements, some battles have involved up to a dozen naval units on each side and ranged over hundreds of miles of ocean, many times with bombers and fighters joining the fray and often deciding the victor. But after the naval units are spent there’s a good chance that they become a non-factor, as capital ships are just too expensive to repair. On the flip side, IMO subs and advanced subs are a relative bargain, which biases game play to the Germans in this regard. Has there been consideration to a naval infrastructure tech? Perhaps such a tech would make upgraded ports more efficient in repairing naval units. I’m not sure how much play such a tech would get in the European Theatre, but when someone creates a global campaign that includes Japan and the US such a tech could be very important, as navies will assume paramount importance. And another pet peeve. I would either make cruisers even less expensive, to balance somewhat the disparity to cheap U boats, or add destroyer squadron units with soft build limits. There were scads of destroyers in WW II, some squadrons easily large enough to show up in a strategic level game. And it just isn’t aesthetically pleasing to scout with a 100 mpp corp. A 150 or 200 mpp destroyer squadron could do the same thing, without having to Kamikaze the equivalent of 50k men.

I just scanned the entire manual and can’t find it. I know it’s Moscow to Stalingrad, but what’s the third one?

Yes, the Rock fell, and there was a prompt about British supply. But I took Iran and shoved a Russian corp through, so we have land link to Moscow, but Iran surrendered anyway, and at the end of the turn my mpps were higher than last turn, so will I be penalized supply wise anyway? I'll get a look see next turn. Also took Syria. So it's been a wild game of grab ass, each of us collecting minors as quickly as possible. And in Russia, Rambo did invade late, so winter set in within a couple turns, then came the mud, so he's only taken two cities, so summer and the real war looms. Bob