panzermartin

Here one could object maybe. For instance in Dresden it was known that civilians fleeing the red army from the East had found shelter in the city significantly increasing population density. Incediary bombs were used, there were reports mustangs were strafing refugees columns the next morning. It was a blood for blood collective punishment, as they knew war was soon going to be over, and such chances for a carnivorous ritual , would be zero. And it's wasn't only guilty German civilians that suffered from this type of blind bombings. My father experienced the bombing of Piraeus that had many casualties among the local Greek population for little military value. https://www.newgreektv.com/news-in-english-for-greeks/greece/item/31481-history-the-destruction-of-piraeus-by-allied-bombers-11-jan-1944 If we fail to grasp our side is also capable for producing wrong and evil, we will never be able to have an objective view even on contemporary events.

Oh yes, flattening of Dresden did so much to shorten the war. Not. The Germans had only themselves to blame for but it's so sad to walk today in those cities, see the old parts that survived and wonder how the rest would be otherwise. Berlin, Leipzig, Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne and others... At this certain moment walking through their streets I could only think "what a justified crime the Anglo-Americans committed".

This alone is a very bad outcome that contradicts the assumptions that russians are losing trust in the establishment. And from the comments I'm reading in more "civilized" war RU. forums they seem cold blooded, realist and determined about this war. And they seem to take a pride in that they are facing a NATO coalition in disguise, while still moving forward. We'll see if the coming Leopard counterattack shakes this determination. If we could convince them their lives would be better under western sphere before going to WW3 with them, it would be nice...

And to add, as I'm reading after the overnight shelling of shebekino in the Belgorod area , the russian governor says for them to be safe they must annexed Kharkov region entirely. Yes, russian nationalists will be happy to see the indifferent population to feel more threatened.

I will be able to certainly answer this in the coming months! But yours could be a good reading of different Russians mindset. Although I think a good portion of their population is already aware of the NATO involvement in the UA operations. Not sure what they are thinking of these raids. But maybe we underestimate that like all countries Russia has a large base of primitive nationalism that could trigger things and the rest of population to the wrong direction. They are still hardwired to contest any western threat like the numerous times it has happened in the past. I'm thinking this war isn't much different than 19th century and 20th century wars, it's the same imperialistic bras de fer, and Crimea in particular is a precious jewel that has seen Ukrainian troops fighting along German, French, British forces against the different versions of the russian empire.

But If there is a psychosis in their hearts and minds of average russians about the threat from their western borders, these attacks hitting home will only reinforce it. Not that Ukraine doesn't have the absolute right to do so. An eye for an eye...But do we want to fuel that psychosis more? The last thing Ukraine wants is to mobilize the more developed russian oblasts. So far Russia has been exchanging their worst (convicts, etc) for the best Ukraine has to offer (students, educated proffesionals etc) Anyway, chances are this isnt a wider bomber Harris plan but an effort to distract Russia ahead of the real offensive.

Thanks

With the unlimited ammount of material Ukraine is getting from all over the globe they can easily do this everyday if they like.

Just a reminder that not everything we certainly, firmly believe in this forum turns out right. Erdogan won the turkish elections once again.

Not very good news from Turkey, Erdogan will probably win the elections. I had the impression the dynamics were not in his favor. Do you think Russians could have played a role here... Another few years of agony in the aegean.

If the planes were on their way home the friendly fire scenario would be more plausible. But apparently they were not.

Could be a first hint, UA is trying a Stalingrad maneuver to push around the flanks of the Wagnerites in the city , knowing their are manned propably by lower quality Roma... Er russian conscripts. But I don't think it's possible for them to advance more against the artillery and aviation russian forces amassed currently in the area. They are not spread between hundreds of kms like in Kharkov in the summer. Or maybe the main south offensive starts with a bold distraction move in Bakhmut?

No tanks and no BMPs either. Even the T-14s are in the front?

Victory day parade in Moscow is on, spot something unusual? I think a bit shorter this time and didn't that many tanks/vehicles, or I missed them

And now I just realized that WW2 Sturmoviks were probably more succesful than the modern russian Jets in hunting APCs and MBTs. Anyway, we dont have much info on this yet, it would be interesting after the war to collect data on what the russian air force actually managed to hit in the frontlines.

Unfortunately for the russians, this seems to be mostly true. The lack of real CAS ability in coordination with the troops below. Otherwise counterattacks like those in the summer wouldnt be a walk in the park if RU could effectively employ its numerous aircrafts effectively in ground role. Maybe we'll see something different now or maybe not. There is one exception perhaps, I have seen some videos from attack helicopters using their Vikhr missiles from a distance on moving UKR vehicles. if I were the russian commander I would invest a lot in this to counter defense lines penetrations, with the hope that advance elements of the attacker are usually ahead of any AA coverage.

Regarding the recent trench videos, not sure if this was posted. I found the analysis interesting.

Intense and disturbing footage. You can see mutilated and beheaded soldiers, the drones were very accurate (or artillery before them). I wonder, are these trenches dug in by Ukrainian army? Or did Russians really had the time to dug in so extensively in a fluid and exposed environment on the western Bakhmut outskirts. I'm again not surprised by how little support russian forward troops receive some times. They seem to get hammered for quite some time, and then left to die without arty/aviation /drone /armor relief in an area that's supposed to be of reach for the numerous russian assets in the area. Must be that Wagner dug in and die "technique" or completely cut off troops.

Yes it could be a combination of all thes above . I made the assumption because it seems lately they release these away from UA AA fire , even from inside their own borders? https://wavellroom.com/2023/04/17/russian-glide-bombs/

I understand fuse malfunctions are common with those and other bombs bombs but it's strange they fall like that in friendly ground.

Could these be a failure of the newly introduced gliding kit for older bombs? Otherwise it's strange it's the second one falling in friendly territory.

19 still better than 1. We are forgetting Turkey, a precious NATO member that 50yrs ago invaded and occupied northern Cyprus in a Donbas scenario type intervention "to protect the Turkish population" . Who Recognised Northern Cyprus? In 1983, a Turkish-controlled area located on the northern section of the island declared its independence, calling itself the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC). Turkey has been the only country in the world to recognize the TRNC, however. Who talks about northern Cyprus anymore? It's like nothing ever happened, It's gone for the Greek cypriots.

Yes thats a very good reason also. Takes away a lot of weight. I understand this. For the remote poster outside of this conflict I might feel he deserves less excuse. Ukrainians though have all the reasons to feel like that, I admit, after all the war was imposed on them. Its not only them, there are also pro russian sites where the comments are very disturbing under videos and makes you wonder how many rats are out there. This board has been very restrained in contrast, depsite also having ukrainian posters. I still think I need to skip reading comments in twitter and elsewhere because I think its mental health deteriorating.

Good points and I have asked myself some of these questions. We had bloody merciless war since ancient times, with soldiers ripping the guts of people with pointy things, have we really changed at all? I try to resist the idea that war is implemented in human nature, but sometimes I can't find a good counter argument. Still, I admit I dont feel very comfortable with the edited morbid videos, the music even if I understand its for raising morale or propaganda. Apart from the smiling Nazis posing after executions, I don't think there was a lot of intention from each side to ridicule their victims or glorify the kill back then. Or perhaps it deliberately went less documented.

I've watched quite a few of those close action videos posted from both sides and I'm coming to the conclusion that modern soldiers have become even less densesitized firing at the enemy than what was described in the book "on killing". Some of you might have read about it. There was a theory that in WW2 most soldiers didn't fire their guns at all or didn't shoot to kill but mostly injure the enemy. That changed the coming decades, particularly from wiki : "As a result of Marshall's work, modern military training was modified to attempt to override this instinct, by: using man-shaped targets instead of bullseye targets in marksmanship practice practicing and drilling how soldiers would actually fight dispersing responsibility for the killing throughout the group displacing responsibility for the killing onto an authority figure, i.e., the commanding officer and the military hierarchy (see the Milgram experiment) By the time of the United States involvement in the Vietnam War, says Grossman, 90 % of U.S. soldiers would fire their weapons at other people. He also says the act of killing is psychologically traumatic for the killer, even more so than constant danger or witnessing the death of others. Grossman further argues that violence in television, movies and video games contributes to real-life violence by a similar process of training and desensitization." I know the brutality and hate of this conflict may have surpassed any training needed to reach those levels and not sure if those videos represent the general rule but there is something in this war that I haven't seen before. From that video with the russian drone dropping a grenade to an injured Ukranian pleading for his life to the close Call of duty action trench clearing videos I find it disturbing to see perfect killing machines, or find that people from both sides enjoy the video clips with techno and dance music. I mean, how normal is that?