Mark Gallear

Thought I would give this post a bump. I have been adding to my previous posts and now have a fairly complete listing for the British Army in North Africa. It appears that the stuart Kangroo is a Candian development and I thought I would ask Michael to comment on its start date and that he has yet to prove thsat there were no Churchills in Sicily.

Grey Hunter - visit my site!

I will be adding it to Mod Corner not that I would want anybody not to go to CMMODS for it!

As it’s Christmas and I want CMAK fixing, so I thought I would do some research on introductory dates and type rarity (Not sure how the system works to attempt to calculate rarity in CM terms.) On Sherman types at El Alamein - second battle Sherman A History of the Medium Tank R.P. Hunnicutt on the battle of El Alamein 318 Shermans arrived in September most were M4A1 (Sherman II) but some were M4A2s (Sherman III). They were modified by the addition of sand shields and stowage items necessary for desert use. 252 Shermans were ready on the eve of the battle on October 23 also had 170 Grants, 294 Crusaders, 119 Stuarts and 194 Valentines. On Churchill Tanks Six Churchill III October 1942 Then Feb 1943 with Churchill 1s as CS tanks. http://www.armourinfocus.co.uk/a22/index.htm This link has an article by Shilto, which gives graphs of tanks in use per month by type in Italian campaign for 8th Army Tank. Obviously, other units operated in the theatre but gives interesting insight. This site has orgainization and types for the North Irish Horse Regiment. http://www.geocities.com/vqpvqp/nih/Articles/1-7c.html Other articles are worth looking at as well. Churchill III and IV go all the way through with all units and are commonest type of Churchill. Churchill I used as CS tank right the way through by two units. Churchill V 95mm from Dec 1944 to May 1945 with 48 RTR and also NIH both part of 21 ATB. This would be used as a CS tank organized in twos. Churchill VII same unit and dates as above. Churchill NA75 goes right the way through with a number of units. Churchill VII Crocodile in 12 RTR in 21 ATB for April 1945. The Sherman used seem to be all Sherman I or II. Not as common as Churchill tank in this division. (Sherman 1s in British service are normally used for specialist versions such as Firefly rather than as a straight 75mm Tank.) The Infantry Battalion British Battalions, at the start of the War had no integral anti-tank platoons, they had a mobile "poaching" doctrine which the 2pdr did not fit into. Units were officially ordered to form them at the end of 1940 when the Brigade Anti-Tank companies were disbanded and absorbed into Divisional Anti-Tank Regiments. However it was not until 1941 British & Australian units formed integral Anti-Tank units with 1-2pdr Portéé Stand. From August 1942 (after the 1st Battle of El Alamein) some Commonwealth Battalions adopted unofficial TO&Es of 2-2pdr Portéé Stands per battalion (8-10 actual weapons) - This was done in North Africa by Some Australian and South African Battalions (about 1 in 2), and by all New Zealand Battalions. By Mid-1942 New Zealand, South African, and Indian units had also formed these, again with 1-2pdr Portéé Stand. The 2pdr Portéé was used exclusively at this time throughout the British & Commonwealth Armies in all theatres. Some South African Battalions from 2nd El Alamein also used obsolete 18pdr Field Guns (which had been discarded by the Divisional Anti-Tank Regiments) or very occassionally captured German 50mm PaK38 Anti-Tank Guns. From mid-1943 on all British & Commonwealth Infantry Battalions are re-equipped with 1-6pdr Anti-Tank Gun/Quad (the towing vehicle was officially a variant of the same Quad as towed the 25pdr). Other types of tractors and some may have still used 6pdr Portéés as had been used in North Africa by Divisional Anti-Tank Regiments. This remained the norm until the end of the war, except that from 1944 on Lloyd and Universal carriers increasingly replaced the Quad/Truck as the towing vehicle. Finally, in Italy from about February 1945 Integral Anti-Tank Platoons were disbanded, as they were of little use and there was a shortage of Riflemen - this was done in most British and Commonwealth units in that theatre. On AT rifles the evidence is contradictory - most show them in the Support Platoons which in Combat would be attacjhed to individual platoons, although found one theoritical TOW that has them with each Platoon and in the Battalion support Platoons. I would go for a maximum of 2 per Company HQ rather than have them at platoon level. An official “theoretical” Battalion Organization with 4 companies for June 1941 shows AT rifles : Signals platoon 1 AT rifle Anti-Aircraft Platoon 1 AT rifle Mortar platoon 3 AT rifles Carrier Platoon 4 AT rifles Admin Platoon 1 AT rifle If the Carrier Platoon keeps its AT Rifles, and the rest are dished out then 6 AT rifles for four Companies. 1 or 2 AT Rifle attached to each Company HQ. A Battalion Organization for March 1942 for an actual Desert Battalion after the 2pdr is in the AT Platoons, shows an AT rifle attached to each Company HQ. A theoretical organization for September 1942 shows AT rifles in the Company Support Platoons very much as above and 1 per Platoon! Introductory Dates For North Africa Do mot see why the North african theatre should not begin in June 1940 when 7th Armoured Division was sent to the Cyrenaican frontier and fighting with the Italian army began. trops at this stage 11th Hussars with Morris and modified Roll Royce ACs. 7th Hussars Crusier A-9 Cruiser tanks and Mark VI and VIB light tanks. In September - 2nd and 7th RTR arrive with A9 and A10 cruisers and inDecember A13s. December 1940 Armoured car troops comprised one Morris CS9/LAC AC which had a radio and was the official AC of the time and two Rolls Royce which had been modified in theatre. The only photo I have ever seen of this is on this site http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/equiparmourarmouredcars.htm Turret was removed and an open top armoured box round it - crew increased to 4 armament Boys and Bren. If not how about RAF Fordson version - with hole in turret on left side for Boys AT gun plus Lewis AA gun. (At least it would be historical!) Have pictures if needed. 10 RAF Rolly-Royce AC fought with the 11th Hussar from Oct 1941 (1940?)for "a few weeks" as troop D. 37mm Bofors AT gun available at start in North Africa - as "Bofors 2pdr", most common AT gun until at least February. They can be carried Portee fashion - any chance of such a new vehicle. I suspect with British doctine that it only had AP rounds. Bofors AA guns in short supply make very rare - big problem as Italian airforce was large and powerful in early war period. The game uses the Daimler Scout car to represent almost al the scout cars in the desert. The fist scouts cars were just light trucks with carrying capacity similiar to the latter jeeps, some evidence that some trucks were armoured with the Marmon-Harrington 1 AC kit. These in turn were replaced by Humber LRC and Morris LRC scout cars. First date in use in the desert I can find for Daimler scout is February 1943, even though they were used in France and is the official scout car in the Armys lists. March 1941 Marmon-Harrington more common than rarity of 65% Rolls Royce AC disappear immediately RAF Fordson version last maybe 1 or 2 months more then replaced by Morris LRC (Missing from lists.) Noticed that the Marmon-Harrington with captured Italian guns can be organized into 3 car troops, this would never have happened. One squadron managed to have a squadron with each troop's command vehicle in one of these altered vehicles. Make them much rarer than standard vehicle. April 1941 300 new tanks and 50 Hurricane fighters arrive in the theatre as Churchill's Tiger cubs (135 Matildas, 82 cruisers (including 50 Crusier VI Crusader) and 21 light tanks). June 1941 Crusader I and CS used for first time in Battle Axe game has them appear in July. July 1941 Stuart I appear at this time and replace Vickers light tanks. (Although the missing Vickers AA tanks soldier on.) Valentines not available until November. November 1941 Game has Stuart I and II appearing but should be earlier than this. May be that some Stuart III appeared at this time? Valentine tanks first action with the 8th Royal Tank Regiment of the 1st Army Tank Brigade at Capuzzo on Nov 22, 1941. Have Valentine I and II appear at this time. Suspect they are all Valentines I and IIs. Valentine II with AEC diesel most common type. (I would have liked to seen more diffrences between the types as normally lumped together in most Wargame rules. Valentines I petrol engine has got be a more of a firehazard when knocked out than the later diesel versions but this is not modelled.) Valentine IV with slightly more powerful diesel engine probably appears sometime later. (Valentine I, Mk III: AEC gasoline 6 cylinder 135 hp. 2 pdr and coaxial Besa MG. Valentine II, Mk III (Slight differences with I and AEC diesel) Valentine III: turret modified to add loader Valentine IV, MKIII, Valentine IV: As Mk II but with GMC diesel 138 hp Valentine V: As Mk III but with GMC diesel 138 hp.) Bofors 2pdr now long gone from service in RA – although seen a photo of one on the back of LRDG truck from this period. Crusader II and IICS appear. This is correct. Feb 1942 Valentine V and III appears Do not know about the Valentine III – not found a conclusive start date but is about right. The V version has the diesel engine – older Valentines already have diesel engines so could appear together? V version will be the most common type. Does IV appear here as well? 6pdr should appear here. 1 RHA was equipped with them. Should become increasingly common as time goes by. 6pdr was also carried portee, which is missing. According to Featherstone, the first 300 6pdr guns were delivered in December 1941. So, you could go even earlier. March 1942 The Grant appears and 8th Army has 167 and took part in some recces at end of month. A good place for Morris C9/B AA to appear call it the “SP Bofors”. Most British Battalions now have to AT Plattons with Platoon HQ, 4 2pdrs and 4 Brens each. Two MMG Platoons from support Battalions are commonly attached - Platoon HQ and 4 Vickers. The Boys AT Rifle should be reduced to one per Company HQ or dropped completely. May 42 6pdr, Grant and Deacon appear. First two should have already appeared. Not sure exactly when the specialist Deacon went into service but more likely later around August 1942. White Scout Car and Jeep also appears here. First date I have for both in use is Feb 1943. Jeep MG remove from British Army list and Standard Commonwealth and is very doubtful for paratroopers? June 42 No Lee in British Service in the Med. Bishop appears here to early. July 1942 M7 Priest appears, to early - In September 1942, 90 M7s were sent to 8th Army and was available for Battle of Alamein. Valentine VIII with 6pdr appears here? Daimler AC appears? First date I can find is Feb 1943. Bishop - 80 delivered to 8th Army in July 1942. However first combat in October at El Alamein (Featherstone). August 1942 Valentine IX with 6pdr appears I think early – should be October. Oct 1942 M5 Halftrack Seems very unlikely not used in formations until much later? Humber III AC Yes agree with that Crusader III No CS. Yes agree with that, no tanks converted to CS as short of numbers, so Crusader IICS used in these squadrons. Sherman II early Most commonest type Sherman III early Much more rare. Stuart III I would have thought earlier than this but could be right. Stuart IV ? probably a bit early. Churchill IV No. Only 6 Churchill IIIS at battle of El Alamein. Very rare. Churchill V No. Humber Scout Car should appear here! Good position to end Uni Carrier ATR and end or reduce Boys ATR in the Battalion to one per company. 18pdr disappear from RA – Some South African Battalions use this rather than 2pdr. (Stuarts in British Service Stuart I: M3 with Continental engine. Stuart II: M3 with Guiberson diesel. Stuart III: M3A1 with Continental engine. Stuart IV: M3A1 with Guiberson diesel.) Nov 1942 Humber III LRC ? Just Daimler Scout model again. AEC I AC Probably appeared in small numbers in July. No more Churchills until later. Jan 1943 17pdr Apparently first guns mounted on 25pdr carriage delivered in August 1942 but first used by 8th Army at Medenine on March 6 1943. These two are far too early should appear after July 1944 in NW Europe! Stuart Kangaroo. Removed turret and added seats. "The Kangaroo Infantry Carrier was deployed by the British late in the war, having served in Northern Europe with the Canadians, since shortly after the Normandy landings." Stuart Recce came later as influenced by Kangaroo has various MGs on pintle mounts http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/equipinfantry.htm#Kangaroo http://www.mapleleafup.org/vehicles/cac/ Feb 1943 Churchill III and Churchill I CS appear (this apparently is diffrent forom the Churchill I and has a 3" gun in the turret and hull. http://www.geocities.com/vqpvqp/nih/Articles/1-3.html (There is a Churchill II CS with 2pdr in hull and 3" in turret!) 11th Hussaars in January were reequipped with Daimler Amoured Cars, Daimler Scouts, White scout Cars and Jeeps. Suspect these are first use dates for all this equipment. Jeeps used earlier but by SAS. Marmon-Harrington II and II start to disappear as units replace them with this new kit. South African Army gets Marmon-Harrington IV rather than Daimler - could use this 3D model - look similiar. March 1943 17pdr first used in combat Churchill IV appears? Churchill V? Far too early first appears Nov 1944 in this theatre. April 1943 75mm SP Autocar is too early. Appears in Tows for Italian campaign May 1943 Note 22nd armoured handed in old Crusader tanks and re-equipped with Sherman IIIs. Sicily July and August 1943 Morris C9/B AA? Did not at first know what this was! This is a 40mm Bofors mounted on a Morris truck referred to as “SP Bofors” Issued in February 1942. (Big hint - you have the 3d model of the truck and Bofors gun!) The model is a Humber AA Mk 1, which should have quad MGs not twin MGs. Unless it was the Staghound AA, which has, twin MG! Humber IV - icon shows a Canadian Crewman Stuart Recce Late too early Stuart Kangaroo late too early Only brand new Sherman IIIs were used by the British Army in Sicily Sherman I (early) ? If present were rare Sherman I ? If present were rare Sherman II early ? Sherman II ? Sherman III early ? Sherman III Sherman V (early) ? I think too early for Sicily Sherman V ? I think too early for Sicily Not present Valentine X Churchill IV NA Full compliment in July 1944 AEC I disappeared? AEC II AEC III Stuart VI Sexton SP 25pdr was issued to Queens Brigade after fighting ended in Tunis. (Cannot for the life of me find a document showing Canadian tank types in Sicily!) Italy Sept 1943 Infantry Battalion 1943 best yet however – MMG Carrier Platoon only exist in some Infantry Recce regiments – replace with MMG on foot. This organization should appear for sicily. Queens Infantry battalion requipped after the capture of Tunis with the PIAT. So change here occurs for Sicily. Valentine X - just got a date of late 1943 Valentine XI – just got a date of late 1943 production. The introductory date of january 1944 may be correct. Churchill IV arrives Churchill IV NA Units equipped with it only get full compliment in July 1944 Churchill 75 NA - “Upon arrival in Italy the 21st and 25th Tank Brigades were re-structured to include two troops (ie. 18) of Shermans in each Squadron. When the NA75s became available, they essentially replaced the Shermans (only 3 or so retained). Within 25th Tank Brigade the North Irish Horse appear to have been the first to receive NA75s - receiving a full complement of 18 in July 1944. The other two regiments in the brigade received theirs a few weeks later.” (Note: Churchill NA has .30 Browning MGs not Besa!) 75mm SP Autocar. It was issued to Cherry Pickers (11th Hussars) after the end of the fighting in Tunis - unit was not available for Sicily. 75mm SP was used by US forces during the Tunisian campaign and when replaced by fully tracked tank destroyers, they were handed over to the British army and used in Italy by HQ troops of armoured car and tank squadrons to provide fire support. M3 Halftrack – Do not know for sure but good place Staghound AC - Do not know for sure but good place Oct 1943 Humber Scout Car? Seems late arrival - Oct 1942 Jan 1944 Staghound AA? Valentine XI? Used as command tank /artillery observation so no platoon formation Make rare. Built in 1943 date of Oct 1943? M10 Wolverine? got a date of July 1943? May 1944 Churchill VI None in Italy remove! June 1944 M5 Halftrack ? M5A1 Halftrack ? Staghound II? Staghound III? Churchill VII Too early Churchill VIII Not used in Italy Remove. July 1944 Stuart Recce appears here August 1944 Churchill IX (up armoured Mk II & IV) Churchill IX (light Turret) Churchill X (up armoured Mk VI) Churchill X (light turret) Churchill XI (up armoured Mk V) Churchill XI (light turret) Not sure if up armoured? MKVI not used in Italy any way and MK V not in service in Italy yet – seems unlikely any used in this theatre - REMOVE! Sept 1944 Sexton arrives July 1943! Oct 1944 Daimler AC with little John? Seems about right Sherman 1B I am Ok with this date? Sherman IIA 76mm Sherman IIC Firefly ? Sherman VC Firefly ? Suspect Sherman V arrival is about here? If used in this theatre! Troop organization wants altering - No troops of just Firefly or 76mm 3 Sherman V plus 1 Sherman VC Firefly 3 Sherman II 75 plus 1 Sherman IIC Firefly or Sherman IIA 76mm (7th Hussars equipped with Sherman DD, Buffalos called "Fantail" in this theatre and DUKWS.) Found this peculiar Italian Frint Squadron formation for in April 1945 with a troop consisting off a 17pdr and two 76mm Shermans. CS section was two Sherman 105mm. Not found any evidence that the troop was increased to 4 tanks as happened in NW Europe. Nov 1944 Churchill V arrives CS tank organized in 2’S (NIH had only one per squadron to replace a Chuchill I CS!) Priest Kangaroo? Where is the Sherman Kangaroo About right date. In late 1944 , a specially organised armoured personnel carrier regiment of the 8h Army converted Priests into armoured personnel carrier. Carried 20 infantrymen plus crew of two. At same time, 8th Army’s Sherman IIIs 75 were converted into Sherman Kangaroo, removing the turret and allowed room for ten infantrymen plus crew of two. Dec 1944 Churchill VII appears here The infantry battalion 1944 has gone weird again, why all the Sharpshooters in HQ? No Wasps as part of Battalion structure – also at this date does not appear in vehicles listing. Really not sure why an Infantry section suddenly has two Stens? Lorried Infantry Battalion has too may sharpshooters and seems to have too much artillery? Jan 1945 Achilles? Archer? Not sure, either of these were used in this theatre. Feb 1945 Wasp Flamethrower appears in Infantry structures before this date. This date may be correct but first date in use I could find was April 1945. Infantry Battalion should drop the 6pdr AT guns at this point, as they were no longer seen as necessary and men were needed to replace losses in other parts of the Battalion. April 1945 Churchill VII Crocodile correct in 12 RTR in 21 ATB for April 1945. Churchill AVRE (7th armoured Brigade are equipped with Sherman Bulldozers, Kangaroos, Churchill AVREs with Fascines and bridges, Wasps.) I will give the artillery a cursory check. Ok here it is:- 3 Inch Mortars should me much rarer in early Desert war period up to 1942. 18 pdrs should be gone in Oct 1942 as the remaining guns were issued to South African Infantry or otherwise retired. How about some Naval artillery support for Sicily. Suspect there are mistakes in Air support dates but am not expert on this. Mr. Tittles I do not have any problem with the BAR being able to assault although I think advance is a more useful command. You are trying to bring out the differences between these Squad support weapons, which Battlefront has made a bit too samey. I do not think this change will make much difference in game balance terms. Not played CMAK enough to tell if they are going in that direction :confused: Anyway some thoughts on the US list if not said already - how about a separate rifle icon picture for the Springfield and sharpshooter options with Springfield or Garand. Found some new things out so I am going to update my SPWAW British Army OOB now. So the work was not wasted! Mod Corner had the highest number of hits ever in December! (Apparently, a third of them wanted a SPWAW Map editor, I know nothing about. Ah well, I thought CMAK was a runaway best seller and they all wanted my Nazi flag, a certain bmp from the US version and Schoerner’s program!) [ January 17, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Merry Christmas everyone!

A lot of this is ture don't see why you cannot assault with all three - although I have never actually used the command. Not sure grenade throwing is done all that well some times my team thows them like mad with seemingly infinite grenades, other times I park a squad in range of an open halftrack and they just sit there, smiling at it . Didn't want to start a fight but I'm not sure the BAR is John Browning's greatest creation. The Bren is still used by the British Army and I suspect its just as light as a BAR and the assistant is really there just to carry the ammo and spare parts. The British Army was much more interested in its accuracy at longe ranges than its ability to assault, although it was used in WW2 in that way. Revised versions of the MG42 are still in service and the M60 and GPMG are heavily influenced by it. The MG42 firepower is much more downplayed in the two man team than the BARs ability to assault. With a drum magazine its almost as mobile and fireable by one man.

I confess to being English and also having a big interest in the Vietnam war. (9th Cav - Aero Rifles and air mobile tactics! I'm published - well in the British wargame magazine anyway!) I think the fascination is how a little poor and divided country beat the rich and all powerfull Americans. Now that I have said that it won't happen - Battlefront will never get the money - you cann't have a game/film about that! Only very recently would Hollywood do a Vietnam movie and most of those are not really about the Vietnam War ! Oh Battlefront self publish! [ December 22, 2003, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Michael Dorosh - I sort of sure you are right - the ?official document? I downloaded from the link on the above post says they requipped with RAMs from Churchills before Sicily, got to be a typo and the other way round? My Feathersone "A wargamers guide to the Mediterranean Campaigns 1943-1945" says they had Churchills. He was there and I thought he was wrong about a number of things such as Churchill 1s in his tank list but has been proved right. How do we find out for sure? :confused: Yes, it would be just a two month period? [ December 22, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Is this true - 1st Canadian Army Tank Brigade was equipped with Churchills in Sicily - they were mainly in reserve but some squadrons saw action. :confused: Cannot find a link directly proving this - but one of the pdf documents on this page lists the units actions. Not sure what they were equipped with and if Churchills what type? http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/history_archives/engraph/cmhq_e.asp?cat=1 I have already made clear that I am very unhappy with many of the things in the British and Commonwealth organization not sure it is worth while pointing them all out in detail again, on such a serious thread as this but here goes ... A Short List of the Main points! REVISED (Most of these early points refer to North Africa as I am not even sure what battles and units are involved in the East Africa theatre.) The weapon icons showing right weapon - not just Besa for everything so A9 has Vickers and A10 has Besa mgs, 2 guns on Churchill 1 etc. Infantry Battalion - very poor with loads of mistakes. Like option with scout platoon in carriers and without - this should go all the way through. For Battalions in defence, etc. No guns in Battalion until Alamein. (For commonwealth - South Africans option of 2pdrs or 18pdrs.) This would be a good date for the Boys AT rifle to disappear, including carrier version. No AA guns in battalion period. PIATS should appear before they do. (Revised - There should be no platoon of Uni Carriers with Boys AT rifle as these merely represent ad hoc vehicles with the gun being fired from under armour.) (Revised- just found the motorized company - this would be refred to as Lorried Infantry Company. It has Bren guns get rid of them because the Platoon used trucks. [There are not enough to mount the whole company anyway.] I will look up the composition, some Companies by 1944 would be using US halftracks, and very big trucks were used in 1944 that could hold a full platoon and had two drivers so they could move all day and night if necessary.) (The addition of a MG company, would also be accurate and benificial for QB battles). Will discuss this subject further and in full detail if asked! Please import 37mm Bofors AT gun from Finish CMBO list used as "Bofors 2pdr AT gun" for about first 6 months of Desert war. (Revised -. This gun is actually present as Bofors 37mm but appears in January - you fooled me ! According to Churchill's Desert Rats 2 by P Delaforce, the gun was present before the war started so should appear in December. (Not sure why, presumably some were bought before 2pdr went into service in 1938 for this unit.) According to written source only AT gun mentioned but found a photo of 2pdr allegedly before war began. Of course it could me much later but if true then "Bofors 2pdr" most common AT gun and make 2pdr very rare for first three months then the other way round.) Missing Morris CS9/LAC AC - could use Marmon-Harrington 3D model! (Yes, I'm that desperate!) Rolls Royce is the original unaltered version. If possible change to type used by 11th Hussars - take turret off put an open top armoured box round it - crew 4 armament Boys and Bren. If not how about RAF Fordson version - with hole in turret on left side for Boys AT gun plus Lewis AA gun. (At least it would be historical!) Have pictures if needed. They disappear as soon as the M-H appears! Marmon-Harrington gun in the 3d model is far to big it is just a Boys AT Rifle please correct. Any chance of doing a correct 3d representation of types with Italian guns? Please correct the icons to show correct weapons! CS-Troop "Platoon" has 2 tanks not 3 or 4! This mistake goes right the way through. NO LEE - get rid. Right versions of Shermans at Alamein - mostly type II - will look up figures and types if asked. Its first appearance - check arrival times and numbers for rest of time line - looked wrong to me in a number of places - I give a link to a document showing British tank types and numbers through out the Italian campaign for this in an earlier post. .30 AA MGs on Sherman, option on Shermans at Alamein - not all units used them - probably just troop commander in the few units that did. Practised died out after about 3-4 months. NO MORE AA MGS on British and Commonwealth Shermans after that. No 2pdr HE, 6pdr HE January 1944 for AT guns only. Please do the Vickers and Crusader AA tanks. Have introduction and end dates if needed. (I would organize Platoon in section of 2) Where is the Churchill III? First appearance at Alamein. Could do with checking the arrival dates of the other types. Loads, loads more points :eek: ! Sergi - NO YOU cannot fire 2pdrs and 6pdrs from moving trucks unless you have computer controlled stabilization if you do more chance of hitting yourself ! Revised Noticed that Matilda III CS appears in April and there is no Vickers VIC with 15mm Besa. This may be accurate, will check. Matilda III start date is correct - cannot find an account saying if the VIC was present in the Desert. There was only one troop per Squadron so we are talking about 3-4 tanks! Vickers VIB is organized in Troops of 4 while all others are in 3. Pre-war paper organization called for a troop of 4. After France number of troops in a squadron were cut. Unofficially number of tanks in troop also reduced to 3. This may be more consistent and accurate. [ January 07, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Normal military Jeeps were used for liasion rather than scouting and were not armed. I have not spotted this one in the list. Only special forces used them - such as SAS armed jeeps which are not represented in the game and Airborne with the Vickers and I'm not sure if they were used in this theatre.

This is pretty educated guess on this point of British Army doctrine - ok you do see photos of some Alamein period Shermans with the .30 cal MG fitted but not very many after that and German airpower rapidly diminishes as well. You will not see any AA MGs fitted to British made tanks in the early period when German airpower is very strong. In contrast armoured cars and scouts car are well kitted out with them. Even the Uni Carrier could carry a Bren on an AA mount. I am almost 100% certain you will not see a Firefly fitted out with a .50 cal because they did not come with one so an experienced unit could not fit it! See the old Osprey book on "The Sherman in British Service" - for a discussion of this point and the battle account of a tank commander dumping his .30 cal. (Also got Squadron organization and mentions use of the Sherman 105mm as a CS tank in Italy.) The point I made about the half-tracks bristling with US MGs is from a regimental history, which describes this process, I found it after somebody queried why photos showed them with more MGs than was supplied. (exactly how many units did this I don't know.) (The scenario I played was right at the end of the war.) [ December 21, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Just played Tally-Ho and noticed another little point - British Shermans are fitted out with .50 cal AA MGs. (Some were supplied with .30 cals). Although they were supplied with them – the British Army believed that a tank commander should command and not fire a MG from an exposed position. They were not usually fitted but were given to attached infantry formations in halftracks and it is common to see photos of halftracks with .50 cal Mgs as well as the supplied .30 cal. Never seen an AA Mg on a Firefly, as the turret is British made and supplied. Ok, on some occasions they were fitted for AA defence and have read a Battle report of a tank commander getting so mad at his .30 cal(early Sherman period) cooking off above his head he dumped it overboard as soon as it was safe to do so. (This was in a book to make the point that British tank crews didn't like them.) I can only recall seeing photos of Specialist Sherman used for mine clearing fitted with the .50 cal. (Presumably to shoot at the mines). This point goes for commonwealth tank crews as well. British doctrine was to use AA Tanks, which are missing from the game – big hint you have the 3D model of hull and turret already. I recall Battlefront telling us in CMBO that tank commanders did not fire AA MGs so they were not represented. Why the change of heart? Please fix or something! Looking forward to the grav sleds in CM3 rebuild - does this mean Battlefront are going fantasy or SCi-Fi next outing ?

Found two interesting links that give some insight into the use of British HE by tanks with the 6pdr and AT guns. From them I can gleam that HE was used by RA 6 pdrs around the time of Alamein, (presumably Battle test use) but was the practise was stopped until early 1944. (This is my early statement that 6pdr HE was available at Alamein and one of the links gives a side reference to it.) The link says the reason given was belief that HE rounds wore the 6pdr gun barrel rapidly. After the first use of 6 Churchill IIIs at Alamein, the next batch of Churchills seem to have seen combat in late Feb 1943 - they were Churchill III and Is as CS tanks - to the tankers disgust 6pdr HE was not issued and they were forced to use the Churchill I with a 2pdr in the turret and 3" gun in the hull. I found another reference to Churchill I been used in Italy, see my early posts as the link lists all types of British tanks used in numbers by month! (This tank apart from being the wrong 3d model has only one gun barrel in the icons please correct!) Featherstone who was in the RTR in Tunisia and Italy states there was no 6pdr HE round and gives an account of battle in which an 88mm is knocked out with AP rounds. From this it seems tanks with the 6pdr never got the HE round. By 1944 they were been replaced with marks with the 75mm anyway. Donald Featherstone - Tank Battles In Miniture Books 1 and 4. http://www.geocities.com/vqpvqp/nih/Articles/1-2.html http://members.tripod.com/~nigelef/otherfp.htm#Anti-aircraft So, Mike was right it was doctrinal after all ! (You may like to grab my grog icon bar for CMAK from Mod corner. The Desert Rats badge is the unhistoric late period one used because as it looked more pleasing and so fits in well with the current version of CMAK :eek: .) [ December 21, 2003, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Am I winning – gone all quiet on the Middle East/Italian Front? Thought I would give this one a bump as without some vocal support from other British CM players we won’t get anywhere in the patch . Just done a “Grogs” Scenario icon bar with a different badge for each nationality unit type in the game. (Where is the Indian Army?) Also the US 1240 graphic for those with the CDV version and the WG and who don’t like my efforts. Don't all rush at once - one reason I hid my announcement here!

Yes, I looked already - also not consistent says this - Shows pictures of theze protypes which I have never seen before. Also shows picture of Type IV - looking to be very much in service. (The late Bruce Rea Taylor's Firefly wargames rules had this South African used AC with the 2pdr as the only listing to use the HE shell.) Best of all it shows a picture of a type II in desert camo with the AA Bren, Boys rifle and Vickers. Battlefront please copy!

You have sort of managed to get me to go off topic from the main sweeping point I was making. Rune The site on the Marmon-Harrington factory, which I listed on my first post (It used to be an official Marmon-Harrington site but seems to have moved to geocities now?), says a total of 936 Mark IV were built commencing in 1943. You are talking about the Mark V onwards, which were made only in prototype. I have a number of books and wargame rules listing into use and have stats. There are a number of pictures on the site of it – one in Modern African use – hard to believe for a prototype. He even lists which regiments get Marmon-Harrington ACs - Australia appears to have a major use. So no I don't believe your South African guy. Michael Dorosh This is Canadian usage in late 1944. I said it was used by the British Army in this period during Normandy. I was casting doubt on been used as early as March 1943 by the British Army. I could be wrong - prove it! JonS I have sort of detected that and metioned it in my first post – but that is not what is happening in the list. Should be no AT guns in a British Infantry Battalion structure before Alamein. Looking forward to your comments, when you get the game.

Yes, it is a good system - basically. But if we don't moan and point out the faults it won't get any better. Thats the point of the forum or did Battlefront think we would sugar coat it all the time and just sing their praises .

MikeyD does every country have the .30 cal MG graphic? I have pointed out a few places where this is shown when the correct graphic does exist and is used on other vehicles. How hard would it have been to do a Besa graphic for all the British and common wealth vehicles? It would be correct for the US Army, does it have it for the DAK or Italians, I have honestly not looked? (It would not be right for Canadian Churchills! ) I made the point that when I looked at a vehicle and the icons shown were wrong it gave the impression that the modelling of its real factors could be in someway wrong. Please fix. I did make some deeper points than this. Please read all of my post. A fairly sensible reply from rune - saying my sources are incorrect and lists a lot of info on the South African army to counteract my points on the British Army ! I can agree with more or less the whole thing apart from the part on the Model 4. The established wisdom is that the Model 4 was used by the South African Army. Britain did not need it as it was now able to make its own ACs in numbers. Are we taling about a version 5? A picture of the IV it is shown on this site - it does look to be in service ! AS for the comments on M-H 2, I gather it was well liked, (well compared to a modified 1920 Roller anyway.) It gave the British Army an idea of how useful the AC was. My points on the Marmon were mainly on the icons for its weapons, its 3d modelling and been in service far to long in the CM oob. This is mostly about the South African Army I mentioned that they were used by "some" South African Battalion’s after they were dropped from British Army use. Ok, a mention of a British unit still with them 4 examples, if true should we think about its rarity factor. Got to wonder why and where the ammo was coming from - 25 pdr was been made in plentiful numbers by this date. You may have proved me wrong though. Well done Rune. Cannot comment on Nafiger book - not seen the book is it for the British Army or South Africa? Seen the authors site - its a thin, cheaply made paperback thing. The only info on the site is very general as to units and he is not seen as an established expert like Forty or Hogg - who get it wrong from time to time, (well loads really but not as much as CMAK seems to be doing at the moment) as I will admit so do I – I’m not expert either. This is not what is happening in the game, though! The quote may be partly true for one period of time. The British Army went through a number of official changes - partly because equipment shortages forced them or tactics and doctrine changed. In addition, unofficial organizations appeared in certain theatres. One of the sites I put a link to goes into this. I don't think CMAK is modeling any of these changes! Those 20mm AA guns are a bit strange never come across a source on them before. I think this is also a big deal as it effects how the game is played, and the chances of player using the British been able to win. We need a sensible discussion on this. Use but the list pertains to the British Army ! (I am certainly not expert on the South African Army!) This South African squadron organization is weird - no normal Shermans at all. NO CS tanks in HQ or standard Shermans. Very hard to believe for even a WW2 South African unit. The Guards in NW Europe had an All Firefly Squadron formation by the end of the war, but the Firefly had a decent HE round. The standard June 1944 Squadron is HQ 1 Sherman 75 2 Sherman 75 (These would normally be modified into CS tanks but the Sherman fires HE anyway!) 4 Troops x 2 Sherman 75 1 Sherman Firefly. The Sherman Squadron is not a good example because there were a lot of regimental diffrences creeping in from late 1944. But the above Squadron just about describes a Squadron organization through out the war. The number of troops varied over time and officially there were supposed to be AA tanks in the early to late period but in practice these were concentrated in specialist troop formations higher up the tree. (Just as well really as they seem to have gone AWOL from CMAK!) by late 1944-1945 it could be HQ 2 Sherman 75 2 Sherman 75 (or 105mm in Italy) 3 troops 3 Sherman 75, 1 Firefly (or 76 in Italy) or HQ 4 Sherman 3 Troops Sherman, 1 troop of 4 Sherman Firefly. which is the same thing - in practise I suspect the Fireflys would normally be doled out rather than concentrated. Still very different from a unit just with 76mm and Fireflys - where does the HE fire come from? It is Italy after all. Are we getting any where - no :eek: :eek: :mad: [ December 16, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

Just got CMAK (The US version) – well the other day – not recovered yet. I am suffering from this thing here – 25026.BMP It should be limited to the odd Stuart but it gets everywhere. It is badly affecting my suspension of disbelief that CMAK is the most realistic wargame experience ever. (Ok that was CMBB). It appears for the British Besa tank MG, and 15mm Besa and even the .303 Vickers MG (Despite there being a nice picture of one, which appears occasionally.) If I didn’t know better I would think this was some American insult to British “grogs” like that WG thing. :mad: OK it’s a superficial thing and I making a fussy about nothing and I’m just making myself look silly. Therefore, I will delve a little deeper and find out how realistic it really is then, after all, they filled the CD and worked very, very hard. Lets start near the beginning with December 1940, with the British as a test case. (Well I’m just a standard player from Britain, nothing special, not a grog or anything.) LINKS: http://www.oneofmany.btinternet.co.uk/html/army_structure.html http://www.militarytablesoforganisation.com/ http://www.oneofmany.btinternet.co.uk/html/army_structure.html George Forty British ARMY HANDBOOK - helps occasionally! Infantry Divided realistically into Infantry and Mechanised (even though they don’t get trucks, maybe they should as it is the Desert and you can hardly walk that far.) The standard 1940 Infantry Battalion has Bofors AA guns – what!!! These are at Divisional and Brigade level and should be like this right through the war – the infantry did not even want the 2pdr at this stage. (OK, we got some doctrine to come out at last). Realistically it has got the Carrier Scout Platoon. (Left over from the mechanised experiments of the 1930s.) The infantry would use the Brens from the Vehicles and take them with them when they dismounted. To accommodate this the system has had some fixing Universal Carriers coming in different versions with “Bren Carrier”, Boys AT rifle version, that carry less infantry and an empty version for carrying infantry (They seem to be holding the Bren and have not put it on the AA mount.) I applaud this work around but the problem is CM is basically a QB points game – I have to buy British and want to defend. I would want to dismount the scout platoon and hide the carriers in the rear – no, I have to buy them or buy more single companies, which is more expensive. I think the Axis player has a bit of an advantage on me! (I think the ATR carrier is a bit iffy – Carriers were used with the Boys AT in the 1930s organization and the idea was given up on, but many vehicles had one of these fitted – it is hard to believe the poor foot soldiers had any left.) Recon Assault Platoon – not a bad way of showing the British Army method of putting a patrol together. Why eight men? (Somebody mod the original Thompson with the drum mag!) Where are the Vickers MGs? It was British practise to put them in a separate heavy weapons Battalion. What about a Vickers Company, buying them singly is going to be expensive and gives the axis player an advantage. Prior to 1941 there was a shortage of Mortars in the commonwealth forces – what’s the rarity like just 10% for the 3inch Mortar singly and indirect compared with 80% and 50% for the 25pdr. Units had only 1-2 compared to the official TOW of 6. 2pdrs were in short supply after France and they used something called the Bofors 37mm Anti-Tank Guns, apparently Portéé on trucks even this early. I always thought it was the 40mm AA gun. The 2pdr is present with a rarity value of just an extra 20% . This would have been used by Royal Artillery formations not the infantry. (The 25pdrs, which were sent to France, were put on the 18pdr mount, so they must have been removed from service, but some were still in service in this part of the world. Battlefront gets a tick at last. Apparently some South Africans Battalions got there hands on obsolete 18pdrs and used them as AT guns and replaced them later with captured German 50mm AT guns! You get the 2pdr – but can buy the 18pdr. I suppose that’s a tick, even though it’s copied from a wrong British formation!) Armour Wide choice, not going to bother checking the slope for a 5% error. I’m sure Battlefront got this right . Lets look at the “Platoon” organization - why are the CS tanks in troops of three? Squadron practise was to convert two tanks to CS by removing the 2pdr and replacing it with the 3inch gun. They were part of the Squadron HQ with the Squadrons commanders tank. (A standard vehicle) This Squadron organization goes right through the war, as does this slight howler. (When are we going to get Squadron HQ or Company HQ tanks or wherever the Yanks call them in CM? I want to field a full Squadron now that we are in the Desert.) Why are the CS tanks considered rare, they are present in every Squadron? Vehicle – the recon boys in their ACs and scout cars. The standard British Armoured Car in 1940 was the Morris CS9/LAC. Where is it? The problem with the Morris was that the British Army had only ordered one Squadron in the Army reorganization of 1938 and almost all were lost in France. The 1924 and 1920 pattern Rolls Royce Armoured Car was brought out of mothballs. A troop of one Morris with two Rollers making up the numbers in an AC troop. The 11th Hussars took the turret off and built up a square box and armed it with a Bren and Boys firing forward. The RAF took the armour body off fitted to a Fordson 4x2 chasis, altred the turret to take the Boys AT rifle and put on a WW1 Lewis gun on an AA mount. Later the swapped the Vickers for a Bren – I suppose they must have been a bit worn. We are still in 1924 with a US .30 calibre icon for the Vickers!!!!!! (Source: Janes World War II Tanks and Fighting Vehicles. The Complete Guide.) The Daimler Scout – certainly existed at this time in the British Army and had been used in France, so you can guess it was rather in short supply to send to the Desert. Rarity factor in CMAK – no change! Where are the Morris and Humber Light Recon Cars that were to arrive in a few months to do the work of the Daimler scout? Moving on to March 1942 with Rommel making an appearance, we get the Marmon Harrington II AC. This South African made armoured car takes over from the Morris and Rollers. (I have a source which says the MK 1s which were single drive were issued because of shortages of MK IIs.) It came with two Vickers one in the turret and one in the side but was soon modified with the Vickers moving on top of the turret, a Bren on an AA mount was added and a Boys ATR, placed in the turret. The commander could only fire one at time. Is it me or has that Boys been on viagra, it looks huge. Where is the Vickers, I know you can do pintle mounted MGs on halftracks. Icons show .30 on AA mount – a long stick thing for the Boys and that .30 for the Vickers again! This replaced those Rollers but they still there! Links http://www.geocities.com/marmonherrington/ http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/southafrica/ArmoredCars.htm Moving onto November 1941 and Operation Crusader – you get 2pdrs in the Infantry Battalion – you got to be kidding me! You now some period mods – M-Hs with captured Italian 20mm and 47mm guns. They took the turret off and put the gun at the front. However, the Battlefront model just looks the same. Some Squadrons managed to have one of these for each troop HQ – seen photo of this. (Half a tick Battlefront, although they may originate a bit later than this like around May 1942?) The long obsolete Vickers VIB has yet to go from the Armour list. Where is the AA version? The 18pdrs have yet to go from the artillery. It’s May 1942 and the Gazalla Battles. The Grants appear – big tick. What is the evidence for the British use of the White Scout Car at this time? Recon Tows only show it in any numbers for the 1944 battles? Although it is in my D. White Blitzkreig AFVS? It is now October 1942 – El Alamein. Still the 1941 Infantry Battalion - but at last gets the infantry gets the 2pdr, so tick. Enough 6pdrs for Royal Artillery. Deacon, yes but where is the 6pdr Portéé? Some ticks here Priest, Humber III have arrived. THE LEE!!!!!! OK, there are records of the Lee been bought by Britain in large numbers and it was used in 1945 in the Far East but show me pictures of it in the Desert. My Vanguard The Lee/Grant Tanks in British service states categorically no Lees in the Middle East. They all were sent off to the Colonies – where they did not see active service. The six Churchills present are MK IIIs not IV or V! They are not even very rare! They should disappear again after the battle for a long while. (No I'm not sure when they return either. ) Sherman III and II? Will look that one up – of the top of my head think almost all Sherman II with a handful of Sherman I i.e. one or two. Weirdly, no change on rarity on Sherman III and 40% on Sherman II! That 20mm AA gun is still about and I’m not sure it was there in the first place. Its now March 1943 and Tunisia. It was common to have Vickers in the Battalion structure now - er no! Daimler and Humbers are available but the only Marmon-Harrington are still in the list – should be long gone by now. Stuart Recce and Kangaroo APC (sounds a bit Australian to me!) – what’s the evidence for this. Taking turret of Stuarts happened in 1944 for D-Day certainly but now when the gun is still effective? Sherman III – yes big tick. Crusader MK I in service still. British tank losses were not that bad then! Loads of Churchill types (apart from the III) – not sure any were in use with British units at this time? Still no Vickers Lt AA MK II, which was still in service. June 1944 – fall of Rome. British Infantry Battalion got 6pdrs and Vickers – looks about right! What about a few PIATS? Got choice of ACs and recon vehicles but the Universal Carrier with Boys ATR! Tanks – hard to believe a Sherman troop with 4 tanks (well sometimes are the Guards in Italy) – an Infantry Churchill formation with 4 tanks, yes I will believe that! If Churchill I was used in Italy rather than converted to III or III CS, it would have been a CS vehicle in pairs. I suspect all the Churchills with 95mm guns were in Normandy but I could be wrong. Valentine XI with 75mm gun in a troop formation, no as HQ or AO for some scout and artillery formations. It is rare but only at 30% level in game. Now moving on until May 1945 as far as game will take us. Standard Infantry battalion has PIATS – ok believe that but WASP Flamethowers! Sherman 1B with 105mm – big tick. You have to buy a troop of 4 not a CS section of 2! Firefly has appeared but not in a proper troop formation of two standard Shermans with one Firefly or Sherman with 76mm gun. No AA Crusaders seem to have appeared yet, and should have disappeared as well. We have only Staghound AA used in some Recon Squadrons of ACs. Presumably we only have that because its American! Thanks Battlefront. In conclusion - Yes, CMBB really was the most realistic wargame ever made ! Joking aside please, please, pretty please, fix or do something :mad: ! Many of the errors are organisational or icon based which should be easily fixable. Not even checked to see if the hidden unit icons are the right way round yet :eek: !

Siege is right some of them were painted Pink, I have seen one so coloured in a museum. (I think the Army Transport Museum near Hull) Cannot remember when the Pink Panther Rovers came out exactly, although I remember seeing one in the 1970s. (I was a kid then and it was green!) As said earlier, the SAS was finished in 1945 and restarted for the Malayan War around 1950. Not a Film Grog so cannot comment on the film or cartoons. I think the name and colouring was a publicity stunt, either by Rover or the MOD! The Jeeps used in the first Gulf War were painted sand colour.

Schoerner asked me to look at this post. I remember doing a multiplayer game with CMBO each side, used one password for players on one side and saved rather than pressed go, which you only do when it is time to hand over to the enemy. I am involved in a large campaign using CMBB in which such features would make life easier for the umpires and players. (Tigers and Bears) From the design point of view, I don't see any need to change how LOS and spotting works. Just extra password options that allow a player to move only the troops allocated to him. Umpires could be given extra editing tools (to allow continuation of games, with damaged tanks etc, not seeing each others troops at end of a game (I keep messing that one up!) that are limited to these games and password protected. This would not reduce the trust element in normal two player games. THERE IS DEMAND FOR THESE FEATURES! :cool: I put my vote for it here - for what that's worth. [ December 13, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

There are a number of occasions in which 6pdrs at close rang KO out Tiger 1s. (AT guns from Ambush positions). I think the first Tiger 1 captured by the British in the Desert now in the Tank Musuem had a round bounce off the bottom of the gun brrel on to the top hull thin armour. It did no damage but the crew panicked and bailed out. Its accepted there was no way the British gun could have normally pentrated the Tigers armour. Blaine did you spot my posting on the 2pdr HE round in the long 2pdr realism thread?

So do I (I think the disaster for the SAS was a training exercise [their first jump] - they were badly trained as parachutists and they dropped in high winds - I think half of them were killed. The concept was for parachute drops on ammo dumps etc, and then they would walk back to a point where the LRDG would pick them up. David Sterling got permission to start the SAS after they did an unauthorised practice raid on a British airfield, avoided the guards and placed stickers saying blown up all over British aircraft parked on it! The top Brass after they calmed down realised the same thing would happen to Rommel. The name Special Air Service started as a misinformation exercise with men wearing SAS badges going round the bars of Cairo in the hope of persuading Rommel, that the British had a large force of Paras in the region! In fact, Britain had no Paratroopers at all. The idea of them fighting as ground troops after parachuting onto their objective was abandoned after this.) [ December 12, 2003, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

I'm still holding out for Women Soviet soldiers in CMBB. But nobody listens to me ...

I want to encourage getting these little details right . I have noticed that the lighter airborne 6pdr version has slightly lower muzzle velocity and the US 57mm has a longer gun and higher muzzle velocity are these factors factured into CMAK. Although not sure airborne version would have been used in this theatre.