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Agua

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Posts posted by Agua

    Possible Arty Bug In Demo

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Hmmm... I just looked in the section concerning arty targetting in the CMBB manual and it was pretty ambiguous.

    There was this list of changes which was published initially prior to the release of CMBB, and it states:

    Artillery adjusting - If you have an artillery strike that’s coming in off-target (NOTE! If a spotting round is used, which is typical, the strike will come in ON target, so this is important only for strikes out of LOS and rockets, which don’t use spotting rounds) and you want to correct its aim, you should adjust fire onto the originally desired target. Further aiming error will often be reduced, but this is not guaranteed.
    CMBB changes

    I wanted to agree with you that inaccurate barrages to LOS targets was an intentional implementation in CMBB, but for the life of me, I'm not seeing that documented anywhere. I definitely remember (because I experienced it) there was bug which was pretty rare but definitely would not allow adjustments to innaccurate barrages.

    Now that I'm thinking on it a little more, it seems there was also a dispute concerning whether an in-LOS targeted barrage could come in wildly off target. If you're feeling ambititious, look for some posts by Bullethead back shortly after release of CMBB. He and I went back and forth IIRC, saying it was not possible.

    Thinking further, even, it seems that Treeburst looked into this as well previously. Am I getting confused here? Seems there was discussion concerning the language in the manual being ambiguous. Hell, here's the pertinent portions of the manual concerning targetting and adjustments (that I could find anyway):

    This is just by implication under "Delays" (p. 131)

    Another important factor for delays is if the target area is in LOS of the spotting team or not. If not, fire delays can be a lot longer for an artillery strike, and the chance for missing the target area altogether rises dramatically.
    (Emphasis added).

    Sort of ambiguous there. You'd have to imply a chance for a barrage to miss a target that was in LOS at the time targetting commenced if "the chance for missing ... rises dramatically".

    Then again, on the following page, still under "Delays" (p. 134):

    Usually about 30-60 seconds before the full strike, a few "spotting rounds" fall on or near the target. These are needed for the spotter team to adjust the fire properly (an automatic procedure - no input from the player is required). Accuracy for the main strike is considerably better if the spotter has a line of sight to the targetr - see below: "Accuracy".
    Okay, so that's sort of ambiguous as to whether the spotting round must be seen or not, but the relevant phrase here speaks in terms of absolutes: Accuracy for the main strike is considerably better if the spotter has a line of sight to the target ...". (Emphasis added). And not to get sidetracked here, but it's not clear *from the manual* whether the spotting round sighting is necessary - only that an in sight target is more accurate. (shrug). If you'll note in the text linked to Battlefront's list of changes made in CMBB, it does note that targets shift randomly under certain circumstances, one of them being "when there are no spotting rounds", then the text specifically identifies "rockets", as having no spotting round. But, that's another question.

    Okay, on to "Accuracy" (p.133):

    Artillery fire is not always on target. Depending on the experience of the spotting team, the type of artillery being fired, and whether the target area is in sight of the spotter (which is the most important factor), artillery can miss its mark widely, sometimes resulting in nasty "friendly fire" incidents.

    [Paragraph concerning pre-planned bombardments and TRP exceptions to the above omitted]

    The player receives no feedback if an artillery strike is accurate or not - it is important to watch the battlefield and see where the artillery actually falls. Look for that spotting round - if it's widely off target, chances are that the full barrage is going to be off the mark too.

    I couldn't find any documentation where it was stated that off-target barrages called on targets in LOS was a new feature, though, there may be some ambiguity in the language of the manual in some places where it might be implied. However, there's also language which seems to state in absolute terms that if you've got LOS, it's going to be accurate. Maybe it was stated somewhere here in the forum. I know there was an adjustment bug, but the more I think on it, I think the discussion Bullethead, I and a few others were involved in also concerned wildly off-target barrages when the target was in LOS. He was denying it even occurred, iirc, going so far as to create an arty test map and he said he couldn't reproduce it.

    [Edited to include the following:] Ahh... here's a couple of threads dealing with it:

    Something's wrong ...... possibly a bug?

    Artillery bug?

    So it appears that Treeburst was involved in the original question, and that there were two lines of thought, namely: (a) wildly off target barrages do not occur when the spotter has initial LOS to the target; or (B) it was a bug.

    [Edited a second time to include the following:] Damned. Now after reading that first thread I linked to, I'm more confused thatn I was initially. Apparently, I was under the impression back at the time that the language from the manual quoted above concerning "Accuracy" at p.133 indicated a purposeful design to implement off-target artillery even when the spotter had LOS to the target. Now, looking at all the various crap that I've posted, I can't tell. Hehehh... great job, huh?

    [Edited a third time to include the following:] Ahhh... Steve finally chimes in on page 5 of the first discussion thread I linked to.

    Apparently this is still an open topic. The problem appears to be that some people are sure they are doing nothing wrong, yet getting very inaccurate and unadjustable fire. But by and large there doesn't appear to be a problem. BH's test at least indicates that there shouldn't be.

    Perhaps it is user error or perhaps it is a bug. Unfortunately, without seeing this for ourselves we can't tell one way or the other. Perhaps if someone could send me a savegame file where the artillery is falling way off target Charles might be able to spot something in the code (1.01 only please!).

    From Steve's comments, it appears that he was under the impression that in-los targeting should not result in off target barrages.

    [Yes, arty grogs, it's not called a "barrage", but rather a "concentration" or "fire plot" or something or other].

    [ December 06, 2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Agua ]

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    SOTW: Attack on Nibeiwa Fort... Spoiler Alert

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Yes. It just so happened that I decided to approach the scenarios in chrono as well. I found out quite rudely what those little square things which appear to be comprised of sandbags were.

    I didn't like the idea of splitting the forces so I consolidated all forces on one of the "ends" so to speak. Infantry hid wihle armour moved past kicking up a cover of dust for their advance. I was able to completely avoid the rows of AT mines, by sheer luck of choosing to narrow my front.

    One Matty II became immobilzed right at a spot overlooking the apparent reinforcement location where the flood of M11/39s come on the map. That one Matty took out 9 of the little boogers alone and never lost morale. Guess the crew knew what they were up against and not especially worried.

    Yes, it was playing against the ai. Only an experience bonus (no force bonus). It was like one long mop up operation.

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    AH Tobruk to CMAK - the gaming circle complete.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Tobruk and Anzio are sitting up in my attic. Actually pulled Anzio out a year or so ago to play with the wife (at her request, believe it or not). After hunting for about 15 minutes for the fourth counter of "X" type, I was reminded why I prefer puter wargames and put the thing back where it sits to this day.

    You can't get the deep understanding of the mechanics that come from knowing how all the numbers and rules interrelate from playing CM, but those old boardgames were just crude attempts to simulate that which CM does so much more believably and effortlessly.

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    Possible Arty Bug In Demo

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by redwolf:

    The real bug was (is?) that under the conditions above a new adjustment would not adjust the fire, you would have to cancel for a turn and then start from scratch.

    That is the bug regarding adjustments that I remembered in CMBB, which is something different from what is being described here.
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    8:34pm in Chicago....how is the preview going?

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by YankeeDog:

    I surfed through the scenario editor briefly, and there are some interesting units and TOEs to play with, including from the 1944-1945 period that we are all familiar with, including some changes to what had been done in CMBO. While I didn't check to see if every unit in CMBO was in the game, the vast majority certainly are, and I don't think it will be difficult for anyone wanting to create/re-create NWE battles to do so in CMAK.

    Two games in one (or nearly) :D </font>
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