Treeburst155

Ozzieboy! Your pinned spotter was your problem. In effect, once that happened you no longer had LOS to the target point. Spotters must not be disturbed while actually observing a fire mission. Treeburst155 out.

Yup, I have no problem importing troops from finished QBs. Unfinished saved QBs will definitely not allow troops to export to another QB. Just checking things out to make sure I'm not doing something wrong. Treeburst155 out.

What I was trying to do was import troops to a QB from a saved QB that was saved in midgame. I don't think that works. Thanks for the reply. Treeburst155 out.

Is it possible to import UNITS from a saved QB in progress? The manual seems to suggest it is, but I've had no luck. After importing the map from a saved QB, the option to import units does not present itself. I suspect that an unfinished saved QB will not work when it comes to importing TROOPS from it to a new QB. Treeburst155 out. [ November 05, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

The screenshots are enough for me. I'll not be counting on burning vehicles to block LOS. Thanks for the tip, Tom. Treeburst155 out.

Demoss, I noticed this too. It's just not well written. I think the writer was just mentioning, in a paranthetical way, all the cases where spotting rounds would not be used. Treeburst155 out.

In the case of CDIC's spotter, the disturbing thing is that, had the building been fired on, the spotter team would likely have perished. They would have done so as a direct result of the withdraw order. For this reason I think the withdraw order should only be used when a unit is likely to die (or at least break) anyway in the coming turn. Treeburst155 out.

Great contribution, Ace Pilot! This backs up the theory that only out of LOS (no spotting rounds) targets can miss the mark. Actually, we should quit talking about LOS completely. It is the absence of spotting rounds for whatever reason that makes a bad strike possible (with the exception of TRPs and prep bombardment), and maybe not even adjustable. All this confusion is a result of inaccuracies in the manual. Perhaps the manual needs some manual adjusting? Treeburst155 out. [ November 05, 2002, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Seanachai, I have had most of the past week off work so I've finally had the time to dig into just how CMBB works. I WAS a fan of the "withdraw" order, so changes in that area interest me. Rather than actually play the AI to learn how things work, I cut to the chase and just test things out quickly. The learning process is quicker and more efficient that way. As people post things they notice through play, I test these things to see what the deal is. I have no opinion on the "goodness" of the changes to the withdraw order. I just want to know what I can expect when I issue that order. On the "AI Cheats" thread I was not trying to prove the AI does, or does not cheat. I was simply interested in the truth of the matter. Treeburst155 out. [ November 05, 2002, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

What we've learned: 1) If you target blind, your barrage may be way off. If it is, you cannot adjust it. 2) If your spotter has LOS, your barrage will be accurate regardless of spotting round locations. No adjusting necessary. 3) Spotting rounds are only of any value to your enemy. They tip him off that he's about to get hit. 4) The manual is wrong because of #1 and #2 5) Agua knows how to plot observed target points with spotters 6) CapDog likes to target blind 7) BFC needs to fix or do somefink to either the game or the manual 8) With CMBB 1.0 arty should be handled just like in CMBO, but NEVER fire blind. 9) Bullethead refers to Soviet turn 1 prep bombardment as "barrage". This could be confused with the barrage associated with a standard fire mission. 10) Bullethead's test scenario is quite useful IMO. I will be playing with it for awhile. Treeburst155 out. [ November 05, 2002, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Looks real interesting, Rob; but quite involved. First you need the disk image (1:1 copy), which requires another piece of software. IOW, I would probably have to spend several hours before I was actually running CM without the CD. Thanks anyway. It's an interesting site. Treeburst155 out.

I'm going to treat spotters just like I do in CMBO until the knowledge base in this area grows. IOW, no adjusting for accuracy. If I see a spotting round more than 300 meters off target, I will still not adjust. Only when the barrage is similarly off will I CANCEL the target. Still no adjusting. When I've seen enough of these FUBAR barrages I will be able to determine what a FUBAR spotting round is and CANCEL sooner. Based on my observations so far, a 240 meter off target spotting round means nothing when it comes to barrage accuracy. Treeburst155 out.

Regular German 81mm Mortar Spotter- Spotting round - 240 meters from ground zero Fire Mission - on target without adjusting. Treeburst155 out.

"Widely off target", according to my tests with a German regular 105 spotter is NOT a spotting round that hits 150 meters away. I had good accuracy without adjusting after seeing such a spotting round. Here's what I suspect. I think, occasionally, a fire mission will be totally FUBAR. Perhaps the chances of this are more likely with certain spotter types. When this happens I suspect it will be quite obvious. The spotting rounds and/or FFE will hit WAY off target, several hundred meters at least. When it does you should re-affirm the target point (adjust real close). This is all speculation of course. I just did four fire missions with my German regular 105 spotter and didn't adjust no matter where the spotting rounds landed. The furthest was 150 meters from the target building. In all four cases the light multi-story building was destroyed completely. Treeburst155 out.

Thanks, Henk! Now I have to test all this myself. I'm too curious about the whole arty accuracy thing now. Agua, Good question. Spotting to FFE is probably different for different types of arty, but I don't know. I DO know I love it when it all happens in one turn so my enemy doesn't get tipped off to the coming barrage. Treeburst155 out.

Why not just make minute adjustments throughout ALL fire missions from the first orders phase after the first spotting round to the end? You will cause brief delays each minute of course, but I'd pay that price for more accuracy. Treeburst155 out.

Just for Agua, so he doesn't get bored at work. Accuracy Artillery fire is not always on target. Depending on the expeerience of the spotting team, the type of artillery being fired, and whether the target area is in sight of the spotter (which is the most important factor), artillery can miss its mark widely, sometimes resulting in nasty "friendly fire" incidents. There are two exceptions to this - pre-planned bambardments are always on target (since it is assumed that the necessary calculations have been made ahead of time and the guns have been registered on target), as well as fire (even if out of LOS) on Target-Reference Points (TRPs), which have been likewise pre-registered in a fireplan. The player receives no feedback if an artillery strike is accurate or not - it is important to watch the battlefield and see where the artillery actually falls. Look for that spotting round - if it's widely off target, chances are that the full barrage is going to be off the mark too. Adjusting Fire When you find your artillery strike to be off the mark, or if you simply want to adjust or "walk" the aiming point a short distance (even after the strike has begun), you will need to adjust your fire. Simply select the spotting team whose fire you want to adjust, and plot a new target point not too far away from the original mark. If the targeting line is light green you are within the acceptable adjustment radius of the original aiming point. ...a couple irrelevant paragraphs talking about blue and green lines, etc....then: Adjusted fire can STILL be inaccurate, though it is a lot more probably that it will fall on target than the first strike. So you still need to watch the landing of the actual barrage so you can re-adjust again if needed. Page 133-134

Veregeltungswaffe, LOL! Great idea! Hehe...gamey, but GREAT! Treeburst155 out.

Reading the manual, the general idea one gets over the course of four paragraphs is that you need to adjust fire a short distance from the original target point if the rounds are inaccurate. There is an emphasis on observing spotting rounds, but FFE can be adjusted too. It further states that you may have to make this small adjustment more than once. In general, the whole adjust fire thing is just a bit too vague. It's not a precise explanation. Taking it at face value, I would assume that I simply need to move the target point a very small amount if I observe what I think is an off target spotting round. The gamey temptation would be to plot fire, and routinely adjust a very small amount as soon as the first spotting round falls, and each turn of the fire mission too. Treeburst155 out. [ November 04, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Alan and WineCape, Yes, I might just add another CD Drive. Kanonier, I think you may be right about that. Let me see if I can edit the title. Never done that before. Treeburst155 out.

The question in my mind now is when exactly the Withdraw order would be useful. If a unit is almost certain to break if he stays put, I guess that would be the time for the withdraw order. Treeburst155 out.

Bullethead is right about it being easy to THINK you have LOS, but you actually don't at the instant you click the mouse. Plotting a target point as deep into woods as you can see is one example. Assuming there really is LOS to the target point, and the rounds are way off, perhaps it is necessary to CANCEL the fire mission and start from scratch. Treeburst155 out.

A typical Regular German squad, in command (no leadership bonuses), will behave as follows if given a 50 meter withdraw order toward the rear, through cover, with no enemy in sight, and not taking fire. It WILL immediately hit the dirt. It WILL immediately become at least Shaken, but will be in a Panic state the VAST majority of the time. Nevertheless, in no more than six seconds, it will respond to the withdraw order by turning and running for the rear. At the beginning of the next orders phase there is about a 40% chance it will be Pinned, and a 40% chance it will be OK. The other 20% of the time it will be Shaken, Cautious, or Alerted. Imagine what would happen if this squad were taking fire. It might go into suicide sneak mode. Treeburst155 out. [ November 04, 2002, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Thanks, Bullethead, but I knew all that. What I want to know is how to adjust spotting rounds or FFE when I see it is way off target. I target the arty on my desired point (in LOS). When it begins falling I see that it is falling far off target. NOW what do I do? I'm already targetting the point I want. Do I shift the target point a very small amount (re-affirming the present coordinates), or do I move the target point an amount equal to how far off target the shells are falling? If the latter, would I have to have LOS to the new target point? Do you see what I'm getting at here? Thanks!! Treeburst155 out.

So, what's the scoop on adjusting fire? Nobody knows?! Treeburst155 out.