Treeburst155

Yeah, what about trenches? I forgot about them. I would assume they are part of the bug because they are not manned automatically like bunkers and pillboxes, and aircraft. A trench is similar to a roadblock. So, we have mines, wire, roadblocks, TRPs, and trenches. Treeburst155 out.

I can understand slow ROF vehicles (IS-2) backing away from an armor fight, even when the gun (122mm) has the potential to penetrate the big cats. What I don't understand though, is why the 85mm IS-1 is also timid when it comes to the big cats? A Panther will cause the heavily armored IS-1 to back away. Sometimes this 'retreat' will occur before the IS-1 even fires a single round. Is there a good explanation for this behaviour? Treeburst155 out.

Well, with this little mystery solved, I'll be devoting more time to my PBEM battles now. That is, until the next mysterious game behaviour issue pops up. Thankfully, these are few and far between. Have fun guys, and watch that smoke and dust carefully. Treeburst155 out.

Martyr, Yes, I should be on the beta test team to do the mind-numbing, repetitive testing of various in-game events, and unit behaviour that appears undesireable at first glance. To open a new can of worms, are you sure direct fire doesn't stop when interrupted by smoke or dust? I think it probably does, but will resume again when LOS is restored. There are two kinds of direct fire to consider here, area fire and targetting units. Oh, let's not dig into this one. It doesn't get my platoons wiped out unexpectedly. Treeburst155 out.

Big News! I decided to test this in CMBB. This behaviour is true in CMBB too. We just didn't notice because smoke clouds are much less common than dust clouds. With CMAK we have obstructions constantly. If spotter LOS is blocked at the beginning of the turn in which the first round is to be fired, you get a haywire strike. This behaviour has been with us for years! LOL!! The dust just makes the situation occur MUCH more frequently. I've a feeling BFC will not modify this behaviour. So, watch those dust clouds if your arty is due to fall next turn. Are you fighting a dry, dusty battle? Don't expect to get much out of your arty. Treeburst155 out.

Smaller caliber FOs still exhibit the bug. They are just less susceptible due to the shorter delay period. In fact, an 81mm can be delivering rounds within the first minute. When this happens, there is no possibility of smoke/dust messing up the strike because the beginning of the turn in which the rounds were to drop had clear LOS. The targetting turn is also the first turn of impact. Is this behaviour a bug? I guess that depends on whether or not it is intended behaviour. If I had designed the game, it would be a bug. BFC may see things differently. Let's look at a typical situation. A 155mm spotter has LOS to a target point. He calls in the strike and waits. At some point his LOS is obstructed for, say 30 seconds. This 30 second LOS block just so happens to begin 25 seconds before the end of a turn. It will end 45 seconds before the spotting rounds are due to hit. So, LOS will be clear when the spotting rounds are due. However, because the blockage spanned a turn, there will be no spotting rounds, and the strike will likely be off target. Had the 30 second blockage begun just a few seconds earlier, so as not to span turns, the strike would be good. To me this is undesireable behaviour; but it's not as bad as I first thought. Spoiled strikes can be discovered and cancelled in the orders phase. If LOS is blocked in the orders phase, and the timer shows that rounds will be dropping this turn, you cancel the strike. Blind strikes due to dust or smoke can be avoided EVERY time if the player pays attention. It is nice to know these bad strikes are easily caught; but the characteristic still makes arty VERY difficult to use in dry scenarios. Still, it may not be a bug in BFC's eyes. I really don't care if they fix it or not because I understand the behaviour now. Never again will an "observed" strike land on one of my own platoons. I know how to prevent it now. Bug or not, it's no longer going to hurt me or my cyber-troopers. Treeburst155 out.

I've been accurately predicting which strikes will be on-target (with 81mm, 105mm, 155mm), and which ones will not, simply by the LOS situation during the orders phase just prior to the firing of the first round. I've been unable to disprove my latest definition of the bug. I think we've pinned it down rather well now. Everyone's results in this thread have been explained. There is an interesting thing related to spotting rounds that I hesitate to bring up because it does not refute the new bug definition, or have anything really to do with the bug. It's just interesting spotting round behaviour. With the 155mm, I noticed that even bad strikes will frequently have a spotting round fired some 55 seconds before the first full salvo. The strike will nevertheless be off-target as determined by the obstructed LOS at the beginning of the turn in which these spotting round(s) were fired. Perhaps these strikes are adjustable in the next orders phase? Unless someone reports results that contradict the latest definition of this bug, I'm done testing. Here it is one more time: If a spotter's LOS is blocked by dust or smoke at the very beginning of the turn in which the spotting rounds are due to fall, the strike will be treated as a blind strike. As long as any smoke or dust clears before this point in time, or appears after this point in time, the strike will be on-target. EDIT: Remember, it is possible for blind strikes to be on target. Except maybe in the case of the 155mm, you will not get spotting rounds with these on-target blind strikes. I guesstimate about 1 in 6 blind strikes will hit the target. Treeburst155 out. [ March 27, 2004, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Smoke messes with arty too. I don't think CMBB behaves this way. I would have griped about it long ago if it did. I still play a lot of CMBB, and I haven't noticed this arty behaviour. When they added dust, they affected smoke too, I think. I suppose I should test CMBB to make sure; but I think I would have run into this behaviour long ago if it were in CMBB too. Treeburst155 out.

I just got a strike with NO spotting rounds that landed on target!! LOS was blocked througout the delay period. So, blind strikes will occasionally be on-target; BUT, the first salvo will be a full salvo, without spotting rounds. No spotting rounds, no refutation of the new bug definition. This is what has happened in some of our test runs, I think.

OK, I'm convinced that the state of LOS at the beginning of the turn in which the arty is going to begin falling is the deciding factor. Here's the new bug definition. See if you can get contrary results. If a spotter's LOS is blocked by dust or smoke at the very beginning of the turn in which the spotting rounds are due to fall, the strike will be treated as a blind strike. As long as any smoke or dust clears before this point in time, or appears after this point in time, the strike will be on-target. Only this single instant in time, at the very beginning of the turn, is important. You either have LOS at this moment, or you don't. If not, you get a bad strike. Ok fellas, try to find exceptions to this new definition. I will try too. Treeburst155 out. [ March 27, 2004, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

I wonder what the chances of a blind strike coming down on-target is? It could be MikeyD got lucky. I'm going to spend some more time on this tonight. Treeburst155 out.

Ah yes, the TRPs. I forgot about those. Thanks. This whole issue isn't too major, especially if the Allies have the forts. If the Germans have lots of wire, mines, TRPs and road blocks we get distorted levels of victory; but I think increasing VL value could help with this. Such scenarios just require a bit more thought when it comes to the VL values. Treeburst155 out.

MikeyD, Your on-target strike after intervening dust has dissipated is interesting. Here's what I think is happening, and what should be specifically tested for. Perhaps the turn in which the first rounds are fired is the critical turn. If smoke or dust that has broken LOS is gone by the beginning of this turn, all is well. If smoke or dust appears AFTER the beginning of this turn, all is well. This would explain your results, and Martyrs (and mine)earlier success with the 81mm. IOW, the condition of spotter LOS at the BEGINNING of the turn in which the first rounds are due to fall determines whether the strike is on-target or not. This is what needs to be tested. In my previous tests, there has always been obstructed LOS at the BEGINNING of the turn in which the rounds were due to fall. Redwolf, I'm aware that spotting rounds were supposed to perform some actual function in CMBB; but I have never been convinced that they do. I've never seen a strike within LOS need to be adjusted, even when the spotting rounds fall off-target. The CMBB manual says different, but... Treeburst155 out.

Let's discuss spotting rounds here for a second. It is my opinion that spotting rounds serve no real purpose in the game. They are a visual nod to realism. If a strike is going to be on target, you will see spotting rounds. These spotting rounds can fall off target. It does not matter if they do. The strike will still be good. If you don't see any spotting rounds, you have a blind strike in action (or rockets). No spotting rounds means "off target". Treeburst155 out.

I've done some more testing. I can get Martyr's results IF I use quick responding arty. Apparently, very short delay periods are not subject to the bug. If the waiting period goes over to the next turn, the strike goes haywire. The latest bug definition: Brief smoke and/or dust will cause an observed arty strike to be treated as a blind strike if the smoke/dust blocks spotter LOS at any time prior to the turn in which the first rounds are due to fall. Treeburst155 out. [ March 26, 2004, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ]

Martyr, I wish my arty worked like yours. Try testing a spotter with a longer waiting period. If the obstruction occurs near enough to the time the spotting rounds are fired, the strike will be good. This "safe" period could be as long as a minute. Use a 105mm spotter and a Sherman. Give the spotter a target. In the same turn, order the Sherman to area fire at a point that will block spotter LOS. The strike should go completely haywire. Treeburst155 out.

The manual is unreliable, Grog Dorosh.

I get the impression sandbag positions are about as useful as being behind walls. I've never really set out to discover the truth about this however. Treeburst155 out.

I get the impression sandbag positions are about as useful as being behind walls. I've never really set out to discover the truth about this however. Treeburst155 out.

I get the impression sandbag positions are about as useful as being behind walls. I've never really set out to discover the truth about this however. Treeburst155 out.

So, which items in the "fortifications" category are NOT part of the bug? Is the problem limited to only wire, mines and road blocks? This would make sense. Treeburst155 out.

Combined Arms, A blind spotter for the rest of the battle!? I REALLY hope you're wrong about this. I'll have to test it when I get time. Treeburst155 out.

Thanks, Cthulhu Dreams, for verifying yet again the molotov situation. Another way to look at this molotov thing is by ranking squads by AT capability: 1) German squads with AT weapons 2) German squads without AT weapons and Russian squads without AT weapons 3) Russian squads with molotovs 4) School children with rocks It makes no sense. Just because the Russians don't have AT weapons doesn't mean they should be held back from close assaulting longer than the Germans. In game, the German player need not fear Russian infantry in close proximity (except for open top stuff, and even then...). German AFVs buzz around enemy infested treelines with impunity. Heck, why not? They'll get the warning to back off as soon as a few molotovs are thrown. I don't for a minute believe this was BFC's intention. Treeburst155 out.

Rokossovski, That was a perfect explanation of the real issue I started this thread about. Thank you for trying to keep this thing focussed. Redwolf, Thanks to you too for the same thing. To All, Read Rokossovski's and Redwolf's contributions to this thread. When you're done, read them again. Then tell me why I'm thrilled to death when my Russian squads FINALLY run out of molotovs. It does not matter if molotovs are under-modelled or overmodelled. It does not matter if close assault (grenades) is undermodelled or over-modelled. What matters is that the WEAKER attack model is ALWAYS used first. This results in a NEGATIVE anti-armor capability of Russian troops. Molotovs are worse than nothing. It's simple really. Treeburst155 out.

Yes, blocked LOS results in a blind strike in every respect, as near as I can tell. Your smoke/dust corrupted strike is simply treated like you targetted blind. There are no spotting rounds. I don't know how well arty strikes can be adjusted because I NEVER target blind unless it's a prep-bombardment or a TRP. Targetting blind is not worth it because I BELIEVE my own troops have a higher probability of being hit than if I had targetted them on purpose. In fact, I think you're guaranteed NOT to hit your own troops when targetting blind if you DO target them. This has not been tested; but I'll bet there is a punishment factor built in for targetting blind. IOW, your own troops are high on the list of "arbitrary" areas to get hit. Treeburst155 out.