Jeff Duquette

Thanks for your continued efforts in updates and patches BTS!

Very interesting discussion. And here I’ve been all jazzed about finding a WWII Tac Sim that finally modeled the ability of tanks to go hull-down. Sounds like the “To Hit” function is at the hart of this.

Hey Greg: Nice bit of info. One of my above references "Soviet Armour Tactics in WWII" translated by Charles Sharp is actually a reprint of a Soviet Training manual for WWII armoured tactics. Originally issued in February of 1944. Copies were apparently captured by the Germans and translated into German for familierization in Soviet TAnk Doctrine. It's only recently been translated into English. (Its available from the Nafziger Collection: http://home.fuse.net/nafziger/books.html)

ooops....miss read Pauls email to me. I guess it will be posted soone. sorry <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hi Jeff , CMHQ has the mods , and i think they will be posted soon. Could you do me a favour and post this in my thread with the other pix. Its the Plain Armour version. Thanks for you time and i hope you get to play with the mod soon. paul<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul (aka Måkjager) asked me to post this shot of his Jagdpanzer IV MOD. Real nice work Paul. Paul told me that his MOD is available for DL at CMHQ now.

Not sure there is an equivelent series of volumes ala Jentz's work. A great web site focusing on soviet wwii armour: http://www.algonet.se/~toriert/index.html In addition Wolfgang Fleishers: "Russian Tanks and Armoured Vehicles 1917 - 1945" is a real nice reference. Steven Zaloga has also done numerous works for Osprey detailing Soviet WWII Armour and Soviet WWII armour doctrine. He also has cranked out a handy reference called; "Red Army Handbook, 1939-1945" Also take a gander at: "Soviet Armour Tactics in WWII" by Charles Sharp. Its available from the Nafziger Collection. http://home.fuse.net/nafziger/books.html US War Department also produced "The Russian Army Handbook" (1939 - 1945). It's similar in make-up to its sister volumes "The German Army Handbook" (1939 - 1945) & "Japanese Army Handbook" (don't have the Japanese study personally). The Soviet and Japanese handbooks have both been reprinted by Military/Info. [This message has been edited by Jeff Duquette (edited 12-14-2000).]

No problem. The least I can do considering I'm now using your most excellent Jagdpanzer mod

here yah go

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>theoretical treatment by pre-war army bureaucrats, whose only combat experience (if any) was in WW I.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Los has done research as described on page one of this thread, interviews with vets, trailing for info. He is also a vet with actual combat experience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So on the one hand combat experience is a determinant…on the other hand it is an asset?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Firing into smoke would remove all reason to have smoke in the first place, at least as the spotting model is right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is also in the German Infantry Squad Handbook to pump all available firepower into any smoke grenade's "cover" on the assumption that someone would be up to something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> so which is it

Just havin some fun

Ooophs…so you can't fire through smoke? Or have I misinterpret the above postings? I've never tried it before.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jeff - I don't have to<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Me thinks you "don't have to" because you can't. I vote that LOS is right, is that the gist? I thought BTS wasn't relying on the voting method for resolving conflict (do a search) Perhaps you have some additional historical information to contribute that will simply blow the lid off this…uhmm…controversy? Sounds like LOS is really the guy that has the goods. Let me ask you something Andreas…Have you read this study by LOS? Can we all take a gander at this thing (do I need to do a search )

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Doubler has shown at least one, probably two instances where the FM procedure went out of the window as soon as it was shown to be untenable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If A than B? Sorry the logic seems a bit watered down. The 1943 FM 17-12 details TC engagement commands…the same commands are employed by TC's in the present version of FM17-12. There's one simple example of doctrine being employed even after contact with the enemy. I suspect I can dig a few hundred more if I were so inclined. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>maybe even smoke grenades.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Show me the money! Speculation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your assumption that since it is in the FM that it was regullarly practiced is also "speculation"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thus the original stipulation <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>At least from a Doctrinal perspective -- US ARMY Infantry should employ smoke grenades for screening tactical movement<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However, Andreas is also correct<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> who is Andreas? So we are to assume that combat anecdotes, after action reports, and official training doctrine are all unreliable sources of information for researching a historical topic. Sim-sala-bim look into my crystal ball and I shall tell you tales of the past

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So picture a fresh squad in a platoon trying this once and getting wiped out. This would most likely cause other grunts/leaders to be a little bit more picky about when they used it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Speculation

A quick reveiw of FM 17-36 (the March 1944 version of War Department field manual "Employment of Tanks with Infantry") indicates that -- at least from a Doctrinal perspective -- US ARMY Infantry should employ smoke grenades for screening tactical movement. I suspect if I were to get hold of the 1943-44 version of FM 7-8 or FM 7-10 the use of smoke grenades will be elaborated upon even further. Cracked open my copy of the training Manual for "The German Squad in Combat" a reprint of the German Armies 1943 manual of German squad level tactics, and it indicates that the typical combat load of all Schutzen (Riflemen 4 through 9 of the squad) was to include smoke grenades. Why would typical combat loads include smoke grenades if they werent being employed for screening movement? In Alex Buchners German Infantry handbook, smoke is apart of the recommended tactic for close assault (presumably for attacking bunkers),the four man team would consist of: Troop Leader; MP-40[later 44] with Magnetic mine 2 handgrenades 2x twin smoke grenades Blinder ; pistol plus smoke bombs ,two hand grenades ,two twin smoke grenades. Destroyer; pistol smoke bombs 1 magnetic charge 1 x T-mine with anchor hooks [ 1 x 3kg concentric charge -teller?]with detonator and three detonators & 2 handgrenades. Securer. Rifle , 1 magnetic charge,1x T-mine with anchor hooks ,with detonator and three detonators & 2 handgrenades . pg 70-71.

How is it that a considerably smoother curve around the Marders drive sprocket is possible...relative to the more polygonal look of the drive wheels on a half-track or hanomag?

Another nice one TIGER! Thanks for sharing.

A quick sketch to show that a round mantle has a continuously changing slope. Apparent armour thickness will vary over the whole face of the mantle depending upon angle of attack.

mantlet is typically round on the Sherman. Round doesnt really equate to 90 degrees or 0 degrees (depending on your frame of reference). If you think in terms of equivelent thickness at a given angle of attack...round will typically present a thicker equivelent armour plate at almost all impact angles.

The Easy Eight looks like zero slope…64mm/0. Jumbo is apparently 152mm/12. Most other common models look like 76mm @ 30 degrees…M4a1, M4a2, and M4a3…all at 76mm/30 cast. Mantle is round in most common models. Interesting. I reckon the mantle makes up at least 50% of the frontal face of the M4's turret. http://www.wargamer.org/GvA/weapons/usa_turret4.html

Good stuff Tom. Slightly off topic…regarding WWII tank gunnery, I get the impression that AORS4(a) and AORS4( may contain a fair bit of information regarding both optics and accuracy in general. Any thoughts on where these studies might be obtained?

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