DevilDog

Looks good!

I like the unit upgrade dots....

Aloid- Corps are three xs and Armies are four.

Not good enough Hubert. We demand a solid SC2 release date!

Yes, but MadMatt was only saying that so that we really WILL all be suprised when CMBB and SC are released on June 22.......

When it's done!

Hawk, It's not just the unit strength that increases with tech advances, but the unit stats (like soft attack & defense, armor attack & defense, etc.) do too.

The Germans only had problems with supplies and reinforcements later (late '41-'42) in the African war after the Allies gained theater superiority in warships and airplanes and started using ULTRA to intercept convoys. In the early part of the African war the situation was reversed, as the Brits had horible wireless security, and Romel knew their every move before it began. After the Brits improved their security, their success correspondingly rose, while Romel's fortunes waned. So it looks like Hubert got it right. Again. It is a very interesting part of the war that is largely overlooked. In one of my first threads I suggested options dealing with operational and theater intel for SC - it's been my hope that someday a good strategic wargame would implement some of this. A good book to read is "Bodyguard of Lies". [ June 14, 2002, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

????? You can't disband fleets.

The building delay is represented by the time that it took you to save the MPPs.

Wow - that was a quick response, and from the head man himself! If you say the USA MPPs balance out well at 180 then I trust you. It is very hard to get a realistic feel for balance when you know you have an artificial one year limit on play. Actually, that makes sense - American units won't be engaged as much, until you are able to build up their forces, while the Russians will be constantly losing units once they engage the Germans. Really? That would be great! [ June 08, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

OK, a few more suggestions... Inspired by SuperTed I invaded (successfully) England. Of course the demo ended right when things got interesting. Both the USA and USSR declaired war on the axis when Britain fell. Almost all my German units were in England when Russia invaded. I had two corps, 2 HQs and one air fleet left on the continent (and no, I wouldn't try that against a human opponent). Luckily I was able to opperationally move those two corps to the east, raise 5 new corps and have the luck to get Hungary to declair war on Russia the next turn, so I didn't end up losing any cities. I had some heavy duty experienced units in England that I began to transport back to the continent: 6 air fleets, 1 bomber fleet, 5 corps, 6 armies, three tank groups and two HQs. And then the demo ran out. Also, as Italy I took Vichy France and was about to take Algiers. Gibralter fell to Germany when Britian gave up, and Spain was about to take Portugal. Germany ended up with 421 MPPs and Italy with 131. As I was pouring all my $ into units and reinforcements I never invested into research. ************************************************* Now for my observations: It seems like a lot of people's complaints about the AI are because it reacts to things somewhat historically. If you do something daring or off the wall it doesn't respond as well. But until an AI is designed that can remember and learn and then be saved in a file between games, I think the AI that now exists is as good as it is going to get. And I would only want that as an option anyway - after a couple games it could get really hard to compete against the AI. I'm sure it would take a tremendous amount of programing and would probably not end up being worth it. Plus, I think the existing AI does pretty well in normal circumstances. Suggestions: 1. The last game was the first time I fought against the USA. Only 180 MPPs? Yes I know it represents only half of the US industrial strength, and they probably start with improved industrial tech. Actually, that's probably pretty accurate for early '41. And the real trick is play balance - it's no fun if the set up is historical but unwinable for one side. Still, I would think the USA output should be at least half of the Russian's. My question (yes, I'm coming to the point finally) is what happens when the USA enters the war late, or in this case, when Germany has already conquered much of the map? I think the USA MPPs should be variable. As a MPP base you would have the points from the cities and ports, and then the remainder would be a percentage of what Germany has when the US enters the war. So if the US enters when Germany already has 450 MPPs, maybe the US will start with 260 MPPs. The difference between the base values from the cities and ports and total value could be divided among the open hexes in the USA, so if they get invaded they will lose a corresponding amount of production, although I wouldn't give that same amount of production to the invader. 2. When conquering a MAJOR country, I think there should be a certain chance of stealing their tech levels, if they are more advanced than yours. So when Germany conquers France, maybe they have a 40% chance at getting Heavy Tank Technology level 1. And the same for England, etc. Just a thought. 3. Good work, Hubert!

I think it's a little hard to judge tech upgrades in the one year demo. You really only have enough time and resources to research a few techs. In one game, as Germany, I researched tech level 5 in industrial technology. You can really kick out a buttload of level one units with that kind of industry let me tell you! However.....does anyone know how much a level 5 army or tank group cost with level one industrial tech? My guess is they would be impossible to buy. So you have to have the industrial tech in order to be able to build many of the upgraded units. I'm sure Hubert has tested and balanced the tech levels as much as possible. I'm willing to bet if you go for only industrial upgrades, although you will produce a lot of units, they won't do very well against the numerically fewer but stronger units produced by an opponent who researched unit upgrades. [ June 07, 2002, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

You can't disband fleets. There already is a delay built in. You get 100% value back if currently on a city in your homeland when you disband (I think - but I've only disbanded on a city once), something like 50% value back if on a city out of your home land, 60% value back if in your homeland and not on a city, and something really low if not on a city and not on your homeland. And if you think it's gamey - historically the French way outnumbered the Germans in armor, they were just spread out throughout the infantry units. It was organization (or lack thereof) that defeated the French. Congradulations to Hubert for being the first to allow the reorganization of the French armor into an actual fighting force.

OK, ignore my original post. I played a game against the AI where after I took France and the Low Countries I made preparations as if I would invade Russia for after the demo time would run out. I ended up with level 5 industrial technology and 360+ MPPs per turn (after Hungary, Rumania, etc joined the Axis cause). Needless to say, even at 480 or so MPPs, Russia will not be able to keep up with Germany under these circumstances. In any event the editor will allow everyone to tweek settings enough to get balanced play against the AI. [ June 03, 2002, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

That's what I'm saying. There are a lot of Russian units even on turn 2 of the demo. These units will increase over time. At the scale the game engine is built on, you can only squeeze so many units on a border, even if you line them up two deep. So even with a few more units, I don't see achieving very impressive results as the Germans against the Russians. Perhaps if you pour all your money into research to upgrade your units? Anyway, it's possible it'll look different when playing out the whole war.

Having grown bored with the limited options available for conquest in the short demo, I decided to play a hot seat game against myself (ensuring that I would achieve victory, yet, paradoxically guaranteeing that I would suffer defeat). I sold off France's military and let Germany overun them by turn two (ironically France had over 1300 MPPs in the coffers when she capitulated yet Germany only got 800). Germany invaded Russia in turn two with three tanks, four corps, three armies, three planes and two HQs. I sold off Vichy's miltary and conquered them with Italy, thus ensuring Italy would be some help during the war. I decided to retreat Russian forces into the interior instead of defend in place, to allow the Germans to conquer half of Russia. Not having the chance to play Russia before, I was suprised at how many units they had and the low manufacturing cost. I decided to fight it out on a line around Moscow. Even down to just over 300 MPPs per turn, the Russians held off the Germans and destroyed several tank groups. If I had fought back earlier the Germans would have been slaughtered. I wonder if the Russian forces, economy and industry start off too strong. Historically Allied industry, particularly American, saved Russia. Yes they had massive man power reserves, but after Barbarosa they lost most of their industry for six? months while relocating to the Urals. Russia certainly shouldn't get an industrial bonus. My German forces could have been built up slightly more prior to invasion, but I don't think it will ever be enough to be decisive under the current set up (and you'll never face an opponent who gives up half of Russia without a fight). By November I had five German and two Italian tank groups, three German and one Italian HQ, three German planes, about 9-10 German armies and 4 Italian and 4 minor axis armies and numerous corps (but not enough) in Russia. But it wasn't enough to produce decisive results against the remaining Russian units. Basically, each conquered city must be garisoned, but there is no way to even come close to this with the MPP levels at current settings. I don't think the axis even has a chance due to the terrific Russian game economy. Russian industrial might was brought to bear in later war years, but seems much too strong for '40 and '41. On a side note, I don't understand everyone who has been complaining about out of supply rules and surrounded cities. I surrounded Lenningrad and the garrison unit was unable to reinforce itself when it took damage. When I wiped out that unit, I had no one left to take the city, so I thought the Germans would be screwed as the Russians could just pop a replacement army into the city. But no new army was allowed to be placed in the now empty city. Also, surrounded units had their movement seriously slashed, and their fighting ability plumeted. Out of supply effects seem properly modeled to me. In some areas to the south I was not allowed to reinforce depleted units, at various times. Is this a bug, or is it modeled in to represent bad roads and difficult transit in Russia? Anyway, I think the game engine is sound, MPP values just need to be tweeked. Not a big issue though, as they will be alterable in the editor. Good job Hubert! -EDIT- The other option, which has been mentioned in other threads is to adjust the suprise effects. Out of supply units are weak enough to be easily eliminated by advancing german units, yet when they present a semi solid front where you can't envelop the units without running into and being "suprised" by them, the Germans just don't stand a chance against the "economic might" of the Soviets. Skew the negative suprise effects on the rear area defender and the Germans will have a fighting chance. (I know it's probably extremely difficult codewise to differentiate between front line and rear area units) [ June 03, 2002, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

Historically, at Dunkirk the Brits save most of their remaining men and a few frogs as well. However they lost ALL their heavy equipment. So disbandment of the BEF in the game would closely simulate what happened historically - you get some MPPs back, but unless you've already got some MPPs saved up you can't field a new army right away.

No, NO!!! I want to abuse it!

I think the old system worked fine - you got a mess of MPPs, but couldn't use them until the next turn.

Oh the computer came through the gap in the southern line, but was only able to get one army and tank group through before I closed the gap with three level 2 tanks. In spite of the complaints on other threads I think the AI is really good compared to other strategic and operational level wargames I've played. But yes, I probably wouldn't try this tactic against a strong human oponent. It's interesting that in another thread some trolls are complaining that France should start with a buch of tank groups. I think Hubert balanced this PERFECTLY with regard to the french docrtine and organization of tanks, but took into account that french tanks had heavier armor and guns than the germans. Of course the french tanks also had some negatives too, but the one tech level higher than germany is probably justified. Once again, GREAT JOB Hubert. [ May 29, 2002, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

Yeah, the AI could be tweeked slightly for offense, but seriously I think it's pretty good as it is. It doesn'y always do the same thing faced with the same situation. And it's pretty good at exploiting gaps in the line. My only question mark is how does the AI do strategically on offense. The demo is really too short to tell. For a game that was designed to be mainly PBEM I think the AI is great! And the first time I played I wasn't sure I liked the scale, but now I think its just about perfect for quick e-mail battles. Great job, Hubert! [ May 27, 2002, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

But it requires a serious reorganization of the French Army's TO&E and a little bit of luck. On the first Allied turn sell all the French corps, the air fleet (the air unit never seemed to do much good anyway) and the northern and southernmost armies. As England sell everything you can except the BEF, HQ and the Canadian army (and Canadian corps - for some reason you can't sell it). Embark all British land forces left for the continent. Do the usual to wipe out the U-boats. Reinforce everyone left on the continent. Turn two. Buy three french tanks and one British tank. Embark the Brit HQ to the continent. Reinforce all units left on the continent. Turn three +. Cross your fingers and attack through the vacated southern magenot line. Since the French possess upgraded tanks they tend to slaughter the German tanks and earn good experience too. Don't know if it's a factor of upgraded units or not, but the french tanks don't seem to lose experience too much when reinforcing. [ May 28, 2002, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: DevilDog ]

Good points. One note on point 4 - the battleship, cruiser and aircraft carrier counters represent fleets, so destroyers are already present in the game, they just aren't significant enough to have their own counters.

I have 500 GHz Athlon, 256 Meg RAM, S540 Stealth III graphics card, Sound Blaster Live! Value sound card. I have played the demo about 12 times (not all the way through each time, but I have completed several times). three times now it has crashed. A black box pops up with a buch of messages, but only for a moment. It says something about a failed subroutine. Each time the demo has crashed it looks like the same messages. Other than losing the game program it doesn't affect my computer.