Iron Duke

Done. Good work rune...gotta keep 'em honest!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And those M-1s came right back to the shop for maintenence after a few days of fighting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Did they really? Wow! I guess someone forgot to tell us! Hell, we pulled guard duty on the Kuwait/Iraq border, driving up and down constantly patrolling our given sectors. Hmm, I guess we were stuck out there for another 5 months of constant roving patrols at all hours, in all weather, and the desert has severe weather changes: 40 to 60 degree temp. changes, downright deadly sandstorms, and of course the frick'n heat. So tell me wwb_99, what else did I do? ------------------ One shot...One Kill

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>They constantly burn themselves up or are succumbing to Foreign Object Damage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> RMC, I am not sure where you are getting this information but it is just not true. Granted, maybe out of the 5000 or so M1's around the world, a lot of packs would seemingly go out. But understand, when the turbine has a problem, the Army doesn't keep running it until it is beyond repair. In fact, the idea behind pulling the pack and popping in a new/rebuilt one allows us to reuse the turbines over and over again. And simplifies maintenance out in the field. Since you are so into bean counting you should appreciate this. As far as succumbing to "Foreign Object Damage" (does capitalizing it make it 'Official?' ), that is blatantly untrue. You seriously think the Army spent over 10 years in development, million (billions) of dollars, hundreds of thousands of manhours designing the M1 only to forget that it lives on the ground? In amongst debris, dirt, rocks, and anything else you can imagine? I have NEVER seen an M1 succumb to foreign object damage. Every evening during the Gulf, we cleaned out over 20 pounds! of fine silt sand out of each V-pack. (The air filters,3 of them) I bet if I looked in my old desert dress uniforms, I could STILL find sand in them, so if any foreign object was going to kill the turbine, it would have been sand...but it didn't. We carried on. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>HELLO! That's why I said "if there were no other limitations." Crewing and manhours are a completely different issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How is crewing and manhours a completely different issue? When you say: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>an M60 can drive 19.58 times as far per dollar as an M1A1. So when you head down to Budget to rent your tank to go see grandma, it'll cost you $8.06 per mile to go in an M60A3 clunker or $157.80 per mile in your Abrams caddy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> WHO is driving this thing? A tank without a crew is pointless. It is a useless piece of scrap iron. And I don't understand why, when you are concerned with the economics of operating and maintaining an M1, you conveniently leave out some of the more obvious drains on your overhead? Such as the crew and maintenance, etc... If you want to get down to some more beancounting, lets look at the only example you provided. First off let me reiterate your premise: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Actually, the 20 times figure was mistaken (my failing memory). It's really 9.27 times for the plain jane M1 and 19.58 times for the M1A1.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Then your only example: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Top reparable cost drivers for the M1A1: Engine module rear @ $180k Engine gas turbine @ $487k Engine module forward @ $207k Top reparable cost drivers for the M60A3: transmission @ $86k engine @ $117k gunner's display @$29k<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well I'm no math genius but the sum of the first three divided by the sum of the latter is 3.767... Where is the 9 -20 times difference? Once again, one can draw conclusions from skewed data and come up with any number of arguments. So we are back to...and this proves what? ------------------ One shot...One Kill

Triumvir, if you are talking to me, I would take 1 M1 over 5 M60's any day of the week. ------------------ One shot...One Kill

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If there were no other limitations would you prefer to field 20 M60s or one M1?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 1 M1 I seriously doubt that 1 M1 costs the same to maintain as 20 M60's. The thing that jumps right out is: 20 Crews vs 1 Crew, Pay, training, housing, feeding, equipment, etc...the list goes on and on. The next thing, are the same number of mechanics to work on 20 M60's opposed to 1 M1? LoL, listen, your "20 times" analogy is way out of context. Really, you can pull figures and make anything you want out of them. For instance I could say, "Well, 20 M60's need to change track...it costs 20 times as much to change track on these M60's as it does 1 M1! LoL. It just doesn't hold water. Anyway, I am not arguing the fact that M1's cost more to maintain than M60's, I just find it funny how one can pull figures out of God knows where, and attempt to prove that we should be building "cheap" M60's over M1's based soley on skewed data. ------------------ One shot...One Kill

TBlaster, you may want to send him an email, he may be waiting on you thinking you owe him a turn? I figure/would like to get the Second Round over by the end of the month, Quarter finals over by mid Jan., finals over-with by end of Jan, and the Championship over by mid February. So I guess the next Asskicker of the Month will be for the month of May or so. (Maybe April) The trophy I bought is sweet! It says: Combat Mission Asskicker of the Month December, 2000 Nice black marble base and a electroplated metal cup makes it a worthy prize. Up for grabs to whomever really wants it most. ------------------ One shot...One Kill

Wow! I hope this works out for "the Rats". I would like to checkout a demo with online play. Sounds fun. As long as I get to command a tank company, count me in! ------------------ One shot...One Kill

TBlaster... Yep...good ole Web map ------------------ One shot...One Kill

RMC wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>M1 Abrams series tanks cost about 20 times as much to maintain as M60 series tanks. This data comes from OSMIS (Operating and Support Management Information System) which tracks the fuel and parts costs for these vehicles by mile. The last data i saw was from 94, though it wouldn't seem to change much. That turbine engine has some great advantages but cheap it ain't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ...and this proves what? If you are trying to compare a 60's/70's era tank with the M1, ok. OTOH, a 30's/40's era tank is a whole different animal. The diesel engine out of an M60 was literally light years ahead of ANY 40's engine in terms of power/cubic inch, fuel consumption, and reliability. So I am not sure what your comparison has to do with what Chupacabra is saying? Could you please explain further? ------------------ One shot...One Kill [This message has been edited by Iron Duke (edited 12-13-2000).]

Chupacabra wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But in any case, another question for those in the know - how well would the Abrams stand up to the logistical nightmare in which German tankers were laboring in 1944-45?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> To begin with let me be the first to admit that tanks need fuel. (Period) Furthermore, if your support elements are being destroyed before they can reach you, you are in a world of hurt. OTOH, I do not know the fuel consumption rate of a Tiger or King Tiger but, I can almost guarantee that given the same terrain, fighting style (offence or defense), the M1A1 will run longer and use less overall fuel than the King Tiger, and maybe even the Tiger. How you ask? Even though the M1 uses a turbine, which typically consumes fuel at a high rate, the metering system is completely computer controlled. As you know, a mechanical carburetor cannot hope to compete with a computer controlled electronic fuel delivery system. Since the Germans, at this time in the war, where mostly on the defensive, their tanks did not have to travel near as much as Allied tanks did. So neither would our hypothetical M1. Also, the M1's turbine will burn any type of fuel you care to feed it, whether it be gas, diesel, kerosine, aviation fuel, methane, human piss...well maybe not human piss, but you get the drift. So overall, with the resourcefulness that units show when put in such situations, I think our M1 would have done quite well. ------------------ One shot...One Kill

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>More on the Abrams and why more complicated and more capable is not always less reliable: "During the Gulf War only 18 Abrams tanks were taken out of service due to battle damage: nine were permanent losses, and another nine suffered repairable damage, mostly from mines. Not a single Abrams crewman was lost in the conflict. There were few reports of mechanical failure. US armor commanders maintained an unprecedented 90% operational readiness for their Abrams Main Battle Tanks."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nice post Marlow. Right on the money, as a matter of fact, my unit, the 3rd Armored Division was the only Division in any Army, EVER to have all 300 of its tanks fight throughout the whole ground war without ANY mechanical failures. You must understand, the US has learned a whole lot since WWII. The M1 Abrams series tanks are excellent machines that put emphasis on crew survivability, ease of maintenance, and combat survivability. It is true that the M1 uses a lot of fuel BUT when you take into account that the typical combat weight for the M1 is 68 to 70 tons, and can travel over 35mph in sand, that is saying a lot! 505 gallons of fuel fit into the four auto-sealing fuel pods and with the Lycoming turbine engine, you get the most "bang for the buck" out of your fuel. Turbines are a whole lot more efficient than internal combustion engines. While the internal combustion engine strives to shed itself from excess heat (most of the energy produced is in the form of heat), the turbine uses heat to make power, so you squeeze every drop of fuel for what it is worth. Cupacabra posted: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Perhaps someone who's more up on modern arms can tell us this: how much time does an Abrams spend in maintenance compared to time in the field?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Its a funny thing, when the tanks are parked in the motor pool, THAT is when they break down! When you are out on maneuvers, hard charging, running them non-stop for days on end, they run as smooth as a baby's bottom. Like the Kalashnikov, they where engineered to run better with hard use. And even in the motor pool, as long as the crew does its PMCS on the major systems (turret, gun, track, engine, etc...) the M1 will be ready when you are. I would pit the M1 against ANY tank in the world and come out on top. (And don't even go "the Israelis...", the M1 would chew it up and spit it out.) ------------------ One shot...One Kill [This message has been edited by Iron Duke (edited 12-13-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>DEF vrs Jeff UPDATE. Turn 6.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL, sounds like you two are having some fun out there! Good. I wanted this to be more than just, "Ok, move my men foward as fast as I can until I make contact. Call in Arty, Rinse, Repeat." Anyone else out there? Hey, you with the face! I need some freak'n news ova here...see what I'm say'n...capise? ------------------ One shot...One Kill

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However our bottom line problem with the Hull Down situation remains that many tanks are far more likely to be destroyed when Hull Down than when sat out in the open. This clearly should never be the case, and as discussed seems due more to the way CM calculates hit locations rather than the actual chance to hit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with you all that if a tank is hull down, this can never be detrimental to it. Perhaps the added chance to get killed stems from this: I'm sure you guys have noticed how the LOS line will "wrap" over a small hill crest, even though whatever is behind the hill seems to be lower than the straight LOS? That might (I have no idea, just guessing) be adding too much in terms of the upper hull/lower turret. Or perhaps the gunner that is firing on the hull down tank needs a bigger "chance to overshoot" modifier? I mean, if any of you have ever shot on a military Rifle range you know that the easiest target to miss is the short, 85m 1/4 silhouette target, because the human eye "sees" more of the target than is actually showing, thus putting the Center of Mass aim a bit too high. (Where true Center of Mass is just above the ground) Therefore, if anything, the gunner firing on the hull down tank should by and large overshoot it. ------------------ One shot...One Kill

Heidman, you like those setup zones do you? Good, I knew they would add to the merriment and good health of your and DEF BUNION's men! mmmmmuuuhahahaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------ One shot...One Kill [This message has been edited by Iron Duke (edited 12-12-2000).]

Joeski, that, my son, is between me and your mortician. j/k I don't want to give away any FOW but I can say that you and Hughes have the second largest map, though the most "crowded". ------------------ One shot...One Kill

Guys, don't forget to include me in on how your battles are going, I really enjoy hearing about them. Hell, its one of the rewards I get for putting time into this thing. Keep me informed! Another cool thing I get out of this is during the purchases phase...sometimes I am amazed at some of your guys' purchases...whether I think they be good or bad, I learn. Once I have the purchases bought on all the maps, I like to look over them in the map editor and try and guess, based solely on the units, who will win. Sometimes it is obvious, most times it is too close to call. Anyhoo, have fun killing each other off! Out. ------------------ One shot...One Kill

One more thing: I hope now that you are all Veterans of this style of play, everyone has no problems to report? Didn't get a turn, no units on map , etc...etc... Let me know if you need help. ------------------ One shot...One Kill

It is my pleasure to announce that the Second Round is fully underway. All PBEM have now gone out the door. Good luck all. BTW: Now that you have all seen the maps, where they nasty enough for you all? Or should I make them nastier? ------------------ One shot...One Kill

Another PBEM went out this morning before I left for work, Joeski vs Hughes I believe. I still need purchases from: Kunzler Kain Please send those to me tonight and we can get this thing moving. ------------------ One shot...One Kill

Three full PBEM's are gone! And a couple are 50% done. I still need purchases from: TBlaster Kunzler Jack Hughes Kain ------------------ One shot...One Kill

Commissar, I would be happy to play a match, but as you may know, I am running the Ass Kicker of the Month tourney and that eats up a whole lot of my time. With work, several PBEM's going...etc, etc...give me a week or so and my duties for the tournament will die down somewhat. Then lets go for it. BTW: It doesn't have to be a pure Armor battle if you don't want. I like playing "regular" battles also. And according to Murphys Law, you will win!! ------------------ One shot...One Kill

As per the Vote, both sides get 3000 points. Keep your purchases coming peeps! ------------------ One shot...One Kill

UPDATE: 2 PBEM's have made it out the door! Good luck all. Second Round Bracket: Tyrannic 12 TBlaster vs.-----------------Winner Kunzler 1) Def Bungis vs.-----------------Winner Jeff Heidman ============================== SuperSlug vs.-----------------Winner Stoffel 2) Jack Hughes vs.-----------------Winner Joeski ============================== Texastoast vs.-----------------Winner Kain 3) Speedy vs.-----------------Winner Chairman7w ============================= Please keep sending in your purchases. ------------------ One shot...One Kill [This message has been edited by Iron Duke (edited 12-10-2000).]

One more thing: Just to remind everyone: The points for the Second Round are 3000. Time: 20 turns for maps 1600 x 1600 and under 25 turns for over 1600 ------------------ One shot...One Kill

ATTENTION: The Second Round Maps have gone out! NOTE: BEFORE sending me your purchases, please make sure you know EXACTLY who is on what side!!!!! Lets not have the cluster *uck of last time! If you cannot decide on who is who and need a Rock, Paper, Scissors PBEM match, just let me know! I will post the updated bracket when I have everyone's purchases. ------------------ One shot...One Kill