Grisha

Incidently here is an article on "blocking detachments" by David Glantz. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Guys, the Germans shot, imprisoned, or assigned to penal battalions 3.3% of their total mobilized combat force. The Soviets did so for an estimated 1.25%. How come I don't see any German units being able to shoot their own fleeing troops? ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Human wave attack. What a bad term for frontal assaults. Incidently, make the entire enemy side a fortified position complete with trenches and pillboxes, and one will have no choice but to commit to a frontal assault. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

If you like Loza's two books, then make sure to read Valera's recent interview with Loza at his russian site ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

One thing CM2 should really strive for in representing the Russian front is trenches. This was a constant in defensive positions throughout the entire war in Russia. I hope it's in the works. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Perchpole, Big Boo Boo, dude. 'Rodina' is the nominative for 'Motherland'. 'Rodinu' is the accusative case for 'Rodina', and when used with the preposition 'za', or 'for', in this context, means 'For the Motherland'. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Well, in English letters what you have put down is: Timoshenko Molotov roainch! Suvorov STDPINETS Not sure what the third and last words are, but am suspicious that third word is an attempt at 'rodinu!', which is better said as 'za rodinu!' In Cryllic, it would look like this (In IE, click View/Encoding/More/Cyrillic(Windows) to see text below in cyrillic) çà ðîäèíó! ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero [This message has been edited by Grisha (edited 03-06-2001).]

Yup. Just bought an 'Il-2 Sturmovik' T-Shirt from them. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Nevermind, all's well with the link. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero [This message has been edited by Grisha (edited 02-21-2001).]

I'm looking forward to using T-34s throughout the timeframe, but also have a weakness for ISU-152s. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

How about 'Russian Front'? ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

I just want to thank you all for being such sports about these ongoing discussions about the Russian front. A lot of views and perceptions has popped up in these threads that have been good food for thought concerning that conflict. I know we've all had to rethink some of our perceptions regarding the Russian front, myself included, and I think that's a good thing. So, please take this moment to pat yourselves on the back, and go ahead and get another beer outta the fridge Besides, when all's said and done, BTS are going to make one helluva game on the Russian front ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Nothing much to it really. Grisha is the Russian nickname for Grigorii, or Gregory. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Freak, I see your point, and I'm not sure what to do about it either. The usage of varying experience levels seems like an elegant solution, but it may not be encompassing enough given the nature of the conflict being simulated. Maybe an elegant solution would be to also give the Soviets more commanders with Stealth ability than the Germans, on average. But first, I guess there needs to be a judgement on whether the Soviet did have better stealth ability as a whole. In hindsight, I think I jumped the gun on this issue, since the engine may be able to handle such an ability w/o modifications. jgdpzr, Regarding armor I was thinking that a possible solution would be to tweak the CM engine, so that Soviet tanks are grouped into tank platoons much like infantry platoons with a tank platoon HQ. This would definitely limit Soviet armor capabilities, since they would need to clumped together to be command effective. Maybe, from 1944 on this restriction could be lifted since radios were much more prevalent in Soviet tank units. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

As far as games go, Avalon Hill's card game version of Squad Leader, Up Front!, gives the Russians the best infiltration skills of the group. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

You're right, Terence, I don't really explain why the Soviets were any better. I could say that being forced to conduct night operations from early on, combined with their emerging skill at maskirovka resulted in an advantage, but that really is nothing but conjecture. I guess I'll just leave it for BTS to decide. I should say most of my knowledge of the Russian front is primarily from Soviet sources, though I have read a few German memoirs, like Guderian's. What I have read has generally alluded to a Soviet advantage at night, something that was swiftly rectified at dawn, I might add ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Here's a list of some reasons why the Soviets were better at night operations than Germans:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> Forced to conduct operations at night from the beginning due to overwhelming German airpower.<LI> Soviets commenced many attacks at night, launched forward detachments mostly at night, conducted troop reconnaissance usually at night.<LI> At Stalingrad, ground gained by the Germans in the day was retaken by the Soviets at night. I know this isn't much of a list. There's also a pdf file, TheSicilianCampaign, at this site that jasper posted, containing a translated Soviet article on night operations. Of course, all things being equal, the Soviets preferred to do most major operations during daylight. It's just that since things weren't very equal for about half of the war, the Soviets tended to use night as an equalizer for various things. Honest, this wasn't a troll. I sincerely thought this aspect of Soviet operations was well known. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero [This message has been edited by Grisha (edited 02-13-2001).]

Terence, I didn't think someone would call me on this one. I thought this fact was so well known that it didn't need verification. Well, let me dig up my references, and I'll get back to you. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Just thought I'd plug this in, since the Soviets possessed this advantage over the Germans throughout the war. Not sure how it should be implemented, but here are some possibilities:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> superior command ranges for the Soviets.<LI> advantage in sneaking.<LI> advantage in hiding.

machineman, First, thanks for the discussion. Regarding carelessness or linearity in tactical maneuvering, that sort of thing did occur throughout the war, but was not so common from 1944, on. But you are right, it did not ever go away. I should point out that the Soviets were very adamant about keeping casualties down almost from the beginning of the war, it's just that it took a while for experience to settle in with all those inexperienced or unskilled officers. By 1944, such wanton usage could have severe consequences. Even the hero of Prokhorovka, General Rotmistrov, was relieved of command in 1944 for his excessive losses during campaigning(he wasn't shot,or anything, just reassigned to a noncombat post). Incidently, guess who was in command of the assault of Seelow Heights? Zhukov There is a story that Zhukov never let minefields stop his advance. He would just order his lower echelon commanders to continue the advance - threaten them into submission, really. His reasoning was that the time it would take them to halt the advance to clear them would result in the same number of casualties as just flat out running through them. He may have been right, but what a man! My god Herr Oberst I agree Werth's War in Russia is an excellent book for getting a feel for what it was like to be Russian during that time. It is one of my favorite books. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Thanks, kipanderson, that helps a lot

Which mistakes are you referring to that the Soviets were continuously repeating? One difficulty the Red Army had till the end of the war was in the initial phases of a breakthrough assault. Apparently, there were more than a few occasions where the breakthrough forces were unable to open a gap through which the mobile groups could advance into. Thus, assests from the mobile group were used to assist in forcing that gap. Also, some commanders, like Zhukov, were accustomed to sending in wave attacks when things got difficult. However, you would rarely have seen Rokossovsky, Cherniakhovsky, or Vatutin commit such a wasteful action, and besides linear frontal attacks were discouraged with great emphasis in the combat regulation. On the other hand, Soviet forces were masters of intelligence gathering from a tactical to an operational level, as well as the art of masking their force redeployments and deceiving the enemy. I seriously doubt anyone, including the USA could've matched them in those last two capabilities during WWII. And as the Germans grimly proved, excellence in pure combat ability or equipment alone does not make a winning army. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Interesting post, kipanderson. I have Dupuy's book, Numbers, Predictions, and War, as well, but never thought to plug in the more recent figures coming out on the Russian front. In know the Vistula-Oder operation doesn't fit into your equation as it occurred in 1945, but I believe it surpassed even the excellence of Bagration. Hm, maybe I should apply QJM to this operation... ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero

Jeff H, The way I look at the weather excuse is like this: if winter comes and your army makes no provisions for it, then is it the weather's fault, or the army's? I doubt the Germans suddenly forgot that winter follows fall follows summer. Unfortunately, they assumed that the Russian campaign would be over in three months, tops. If any one service can be made the scapegoat of this snafu, it would be German operational intelligence. ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero [This message has been edited by Grisha (edited 02-12-2001).]

Jeff, When German generals report Soviet numbers as 10:1 in superiority they aren't far off in many cases. But why is that? Well, let me ask you, in 1941, or 1942 were there occasions where German attacks were at 10:1 odds? I think you'll have to say that, yes, such German numerical superiority did happen at specific, focused points and times. How did they do that? Just because the Germans encountered such Soviet odds does not prove that the Soviets had 10:1 odds overall. In fact, Glantz & House's book, When Titans Clashed, contains overall combatant strengths between the Soviets, their allies, and the Germans with their allies. This information shows that the Soviets didn't possess 2:1 odds overall until late '43, and 3:1 odds overall until late '44(And, incidently, the Germans possessed 1.9:1 odds overall against the Soviets in Nov 1941, from an intial German numerical superiority of 1.4:1 in June 1941). I'll post passage from another of Glantz' books, Soviet Military Intelligence in War, but before I do let me explain its context. This passage has to do with the Vistula-Oder operation in January 1945, which commenced from three bridgeheads which had been gained in the summer offensives of 1944. In October, the Soviets began planning razvedka and maskirovka(intelligence/reconnaissance, and deception, respectively) operations for their big push from this area in January. The effects these extensive plans had on the actual offensive were amazing, to say the least, as German intelligence was totally unaware of any buildup in the area, So, yes, German generals are correct in saying that they encountered 10:1 odds against the Soviets, but it was usually the result of them being operationally 'faked out', because the Soviets had no where near enough men to have that kind of overall force ratio. So from 1944 to 1945, the Germans were getting 'faked out' a lot by the Soviets And, no, I'm not pissed you kicked my ass in that night scenario ------------------ Best regards, Greg Leon Guerrero [This message has been edited by Grisha (edited 02-12-2001).]