Berkut

More detail? Ok, try a recent battle. I had advanced with one rifle platoon, from cover down a steep hill which rose slightly up to a road that ran east-west across the map. They moved up the slope and into a small wood. They then sneaked forward to the edge. directly in front of them beyond the road, they saw some units interspersed in the scattered trees and woods that covered a hill rising up to a bare hill that dominated the area. They also uncovered an AT gun and indentified that some armour was on that hill. amazingly my guys are not spotted! I had three tanks[pzIV's] on overwatch duty behind a small patch of heavy woodland, just enough to hide them not enough to obscure the view. beyond them is the main assault force consisting of pioneers and STUh42's, which I intended to advance through these tanks. The rest of the infantry was to follow through the pioneers when they had breach his lines. I ordered an 81mm mortar FO with the rifle platoon to target the area were the AT gun has been spotted, another FO near the tanks targets the area were I suspect he has infantry watching this part of the road. Things seem to be going well, the AT is not long in being taken out, my rifle platoon and see infantry running to the rear. My only concern is the armour he has on that hill and the possibilty that he had more than one AT gun. In short I needed to know what he had. I decided that a recce in force was needed. The main assault element is moved around to another location, still hidden from view. A recce force of his own is driven off after coming to close to my left flank. My right flank is of no concern, it is close to the map edge, a bit gamey but it cannot be helped. The best approach was from the extreme right. I decide to probe a little further with another platoon and a couple of light tanks, to the left of the original recce party. There is plenty of cover with trees of varying density leading up to the road. Disaster strikes, that tank on the hill comes forward, it has spotted one of my tanks, a duel begins with his single tank and my three panzers, One turn later his tank is still alive and I have lost three tanks. My opponent takes matters into his own hands and advances two tanks towards the trouble spot. I have only two pzIV jagdpanzers left, I give them hunt orders. Disaster strikes as one of these tanks is revealed as a jumbo, I watch as the shots from my tankkillers simply bounce off, then watch dumbly as it and it's friend a 105 make short work of whats left of my tanks. Now i am in a quandry, his tanks have taken up positions to cover this approach. He moves infantry into the area, but they are getting chopped up by the infantry that i have moved forward and the arty that is now falling, yet I have three tanks that i know of and no method of removing them, I could risk the stuh42's but I know they have little chance of winning against a jumbo, I am wishing that I had stated we should play by the 75 rule. what we now had was a stalemate position, I could no longer use this approach. In earlier games I had tried to rush tanks with infantry and paid dearly for it, so that was out. They were too far away for shreks, the chance of hitting was so low. And now my infantry is being engaged by troops he is moving into the area. He does not seem to be too bothered by the arty. He emails me telling me that apart of the AT guns i am not doing much damage. The heavier arty 120 mm mortars do seem to ease the pressure, He has pulled back from the road but I am still stuck on the best way forward. I have paraphrased slightly, but this is pretty much what has happened to date. I know what would happen if I were to push my infantry forward and what would happen to my poor assault howitzers.

I trawled around my book collection to find the account and found it in "Fighting in Hell" edited by Peter Tsouras. The attack made by 20 of these "monsters" brushed aside a force of 100 panzers, they then fell on several disabled tanks and knocked them out. A 150mm battery to the rear was destroyed even though they fired directly at them and scored several hits, they could not knock any out. It was a nearby force of 88mm Flak that knocked a "few" KV1's the rest retreated into nearby woods. One obviously never got the retreat order and continued on. Reading on I discovered that the crew were given food and water during the evening by civilains to allow them to carry on. It does make you wonder what was going on inside the russians head. They must have known what the level of damage this single tank was doing, I guess it comes down to training and doctrine.

I have taken the advice of fionn and challenged a few people to practice my attacks. I have employed most of the tactics that people have spoken of here, the problem was when it came to the crunch of using infantry to take the objective. It was then that the whole thing fell apart as my troops melted under enemy fire and did not seem able to hold their own. It was not always due to arty or even flanking fire, but mostly when it came down to CQB with my opponents troops. I am hoping to pick up a few new tactics that may overcome this. Once again many thanks for all those that posted.

I have seen this phenomenon with moving tanks. I even tested it and was suprised that even with ranges as close as 100 mtrs, a fast moving tank crossing a gap between the cover of trees was not spotted by the stationary tank. I still have the test scenario if anyone wants to see for themselves.

I remember reading an account of the efforts required to destroy just one KV1. Part of an attack of 20 KV1's, this single tank reached a vital supply road. Attempts were made to take it out with 50mm AT guns, new to the front. They were knocked out despite scoring 14 hits on the beast. An 88mm was brought up, but due to the time to deploy, the KV1 was able to knock it out at a distance of 700 yards. Attempts were made by engineers to sneak on it at night, but this proved abortive. The charges were not capable of doing any real damage to the oversized tracks. Finally it fell to a ruse, were by the tank was attacked from all sides by 50 panzers, to keep it's attention diverted from a second attempt to set up an 88 flak to take the KV1 out from the rear. Of 12 direct hits three pierced the tank and destroyed it. What amazed the germans, was that the russians had not taken advantage of the chaos this single tank was causing. They seemed to watch passively as this single monster tank dominated this supply route for a number of days. A number of KV1's from the original attack had survived, one wonders what would have happened had they made an appearance. I don't think it fair to say that the KV1 did not cause the germans any real problems and that they adapted quickly to the situation. It was a matter of days before thay employed a ruse requiring a large number of tanks to keep it occupied, so that a 88mm Flak could be set up close enough to take it out. One must remember that this succeeded due to the inactivity of the russian forces in the area who seemed to be content to watch this drama played out to it's conclusion.

Mr. Johnson said "Sounds like one part of your combined arms assault is failing you." Yes, the infantry part. I thank all who have replied but I have used the tactics you have spoken of. But when it comes to the crunch of sending in the troops, I have to sit and watch as it all falls apart. I have watched platoons and companies simply melt under enemy fire, quick battles are the worst as the terrain the computer picks is just shocking at times. It's really an annoying feeling, as I feel that I should be getting better at this, but I'm not. I'm not sure what it is that I am looking for here, but thanks for taking the time to reply.

This is a post from a very jaded CM player. I have a had a number of very disappointing games over the last couple of months, and it has involved the question being posed. I do well in defensive scenarios, but that is hardly a proud boast to be making. I should be making progress but nothing I seem to do works. Oh, I can make use of cover to get into position, I can use arty to suppress the enemy and do him some damage, but when it comes to going over the top...the whole effort melts under enemy fire or I suffer such heavy losses, I can't hold what I have taken. Some posters might be tempted to claim it is bad luck, but if that is the case then I am a really unlucky CM player...I can count on the fingers of one hand, the number of games I have won. So whats to be done, can I be helped or should I scrap CM and switch to monopoly? ps I should point out that this occurs when playing human opponents.

Checking on the PzIII and it's variants It does look like Ausf A. 5 road wheels dampened by coil springs. Armed with a 37mm KwK L/46.5 it was designated a medium tank, although it only had 15mm thick armour. The suspension was also found to be unsatisfactory and they were all withdrawn from combat units in feburary 1940.

Dora could chuck 80cm shells around but required a lot of effort to use it. It had, I believe(I may be slightly off but not by much)a gun and rail carriage crew of around 500. It also had a battlion of infantry assigned to it as well as it's own AA defence units. It was fired around 48 times during the siege of sevastapol, with one shot penetrating an underground ammunition dump. It did however take an hour or more between reloads, so it would not be suitable for CM. The siegemortars like Thor would be more common and did not require as much time to load, so could be used as off-board arty, but it would be rare, like the heavy duty stuff for the allies. As a side note, Guderian also relates a tale in his memiors, when the gun was being tested. The designer anxious to please Hitler told him that it[|Dora]could be used as an anti-tank weapon, Guderian had an argument with the designer and got him to admit that he was wrong. As for it being fired at infantry as a last ditch defence, it would be pointless as it's lowest depression would still take the shell over the heads of the russkies to devastate some distant hill

My first contribution to CM was to buy it, then I made a scenario, then..............hmmm I'll get back to you

**BUMP**

I would like to see an undertaking to ensure all all KV I's are made of the best russian cardboard.

Worthy of attention so: **BUMP**

Scipio, this has just occured to me after giving it some thought. The battle was never played to it's conclusion, it was ended by a ceasefire. It maybe be possible that this would result in no change of a game score regardless if the VL was being contested during that last turn. any thoughts on this?

Well it is now 22:30 GMT and have not heard anything from my opponent or the allied HQ regarding a standin for iron duke. Reluctantly I am now going to play this battle against the AI, apologies to all concerned

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Scipio: Maybe someone can explain this. Scenario with 1 large VL Situation at the end of a battle: Axis has 1 PSW234/1(Vet) 85m away from the VL and 1 Crew(Vet) 79m away the Allies 1 M4A3(Vet) 46m away from the VL In the end game result, the VL is declared as Axis, the result is a 51 Axis : 49 Allies draw. How can it be? I could understand if the VL is in dispute - but Axis???<hr></blockquote> I am assuming that you also go by the name of Tasker at warfareHQ? If so then I can shine some light on the problem. Before the last turn we played I suspected that you might try a rush for the flag. I reversed a PantherA(VET) back from it's ambush position to one closer to the flag. There was also A PzIV (Veteran) across the road from the PSW234/1 and therefore quite close to the VL Simply put there was more german armour in the vicinity of the VL than american. Still I do feel that it should have been based on kills acheived rather than points in the event of a draw. But that was the rule they decided on sorry Berkut

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMplayer: [QB they can be faster to acquire targets and perhaps more effective with MG fire against the bazooka when spotted.[/QB]<hr></blockquote> I would agree that more experienced tank crews are less likely to bail, but I would question the theory that they can acquire targets more quickly. I myself have seen no evidence of this. They have a lower delay penalty when moving, a higher percentage chance of hitting and lower reload time after the first shot. Other than that they can be just as blind as a green or conscript crew when it comes to spotting enemy units.

I had tried this with a scenario I designed called nachut(rearguard)It was quite a short map, and despite Jason saying that a large graphic advertising where the enemy was to evacuate I still had a few playtesters complain that the allied brief was not indepth enough The main problem is that the AI simply cannot handle the withdrawl of units from the map very well, and it can be too easy to hammer them. With the AI in the attack role, even the position of victory flags does not make the AI any more aggressive, but will bring AI controlled units up the map. It's a scenario idea thats better handled in PBEM&TCP/IP games. Once pointer to remember. Whatever units you decide are going to leave the map, remember to tag them as such in the editor. Jason, I think you had one called get the guns? You had a force of Germans who had to destroy a battery of 105mm guns and then get off the map. The allied player had to hold off the germans and get the guns out of harms way. Not much of a challenge against the AI, but well worth it against a human opponent. regards

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC: Sounds like the antics of the "panic"-"evasion" AI, which kicks in when a vehicle thinks it is exposed and about to get killed, and isn't able to eliminate the threat. [ 10-05-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Apart from the M8, neither of these vehicles had been fired on and were in the process of moving from one covered location to another. They were never fired on or under any other kind of threat, like an arty barrage say... Of course due to my crappy luck on these occasions something would show up and take advantage of it. I'm sure you can understand the frustration. Losing the entire stug platoon during that campaign game has left a bad taste in my mouth. The Stug's strange acrobatics was not the only incident of bizaare AI behaviour, that I came across during that battle. And lately have observed odd behaviour in other units...Hence the question regarding reinstalling the game. I'm starting to wonder if some game files have been corrupted.

This has been an informative debate, even if it got a little heated. Much like one I was involved in regarding the penetrative abilities of AP shell and AP shot. (I'm sure M.Hofbauer will remember that one, we agreed to disagree and moved on) I think we need to accept that we all have extensive libaries of military history books to back up our opinions. But we shouldn't allow ourselves to be dragged into a shouting match over these things...it's not worth the stress We should remember that this is a computer wargame, and although BTS have done their best, it cannot model reality 100% At the end of the day, all we have is a collection of books and personal anecdotes to draw on. None of us fought in Tigers during Kursk nor sat in a sherman looking through a drivers slit as an 88 picked off your mates during operation goodwood. The Tiger was a damn good tank, and in the right hands was capable of astounding things. But there were more nasty ways to die out there, than at receiving end of a Tiger's main gun & they didn't all have an 88 as their main armament. I think the genuine fear of the Tiger tank, lent it an almost mythical status. Something that all allied tankers dreaded coming across. And it was this Mystique that has come across to us here in the present day, and coloured our thinking. Like the anecdotal story of the soldier, who is saved from death by a bullet hitting the steel shaving mirror he had left in his uniforms breast pocket...We have stories of Tiger tanks, picking off targets from great ranges, and stories of Tiger tanks killing off large numbers of vehicles during close range engagements. Sure some of these things did happen, but they were the exception rather than the rule.

I have a stug III moving fast behind good cover to a new location. 25 seconds into the turn, it stops and goes into reverse, right into the open just as a cromwell hoves into view. Before that during a campaign battle set up by Jason Cawley I have a stug do a strange forward/reverse...forward/turn to the left/turn to the right..forward/reverse dance in plain view of a sherman. It missed 4 shots against the stug no doubt down to the fact the gunner was laughing so hard. In another game against jason, I have a scout car charge clear across an open area in plain view of a PzIV, despite orders for it to move slowly behind cover. Then in another game I have a half track charge down a road, stop, rotate, then reverse down the road instead. Everytime I examined the maps and saw no possible obstruction. There had been no enemy intervention(expect for the scout car, it had spotted a Panzerfaust, pinned it then killed it, then charged) I'm sure it's been discussed before, but it really does drive me up the wall and leaves a bad taste in the mouth when I lose the vehicle. So I put it to the distinguished members of the panel, should I reinstall the game from scratch or just suffer the indignity of losing vehicles to such a silly bug? rant mode off, I'm off to bed

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler: I can't believe I forgot that, since I own the book! There's also one by a British tank squadron commander whose name was Thomas, Tompkin or some such. He wrote one about his regular wartime experiences and another, recently released, called DESIGNED FOR DEATH, dealing with the fundamental design flaws of British tanks which doomed thousands of crewmen to death and dismemberment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The book is called "Death By Design" written by Peter Beale who also wrote "Tank Tracks" He served with the 9th battalion RTR, from 43 to 45. In Death by Design, he does attack British tank design and training given to the men who would have to go to war in tanks like the cromwell. What amazed me was the break down of the various depts involved in tank design, and the length of time taken to get the tank built. Ken Touts books are a must have. He wrote three books in all, Tank, A fine night for tanks, and The bloody battle for tilly. Ian Hogg's tank killing is also worth a look.

Run away Run away

I have also come across the bizaare behaviour, with units suddenly going into reverse. A sqd of 251's at high speed along a bumpy dirt road, the guy bringing up the rear decides to go into reverse and heads along the road, admiring the view as american armour hoves into view. :eek: I was able to get it out of sight before my opponent could send him to hell, very frustrating experience all the same.

Again...thanks for the interest. The scenario is on it's way. I am also keen to know how it copes player vs player, any feedback concerning that would be very much appreciated thanks