ASL Veteran

A while back I said that I couldn't lose as the Germans in the scenario All or Nothing. Well three individuals took up the challenge - one honorably excused himself on turn 4. The other two are attacking with great elan, but they are doing nothing to alter my opinion that the scenario is 70 percent pro German (worthy opponents both). However, fighting those battles has shown me that I could tighten up a few areas of the defense. Random chance also went against me in small ways in both of the remaining games. Since we are doing AARs, I will not have the same opportunity to have a perfect game against the British that I do now, so I am looking to add another opponent or two. Let me know if you are interested in taking a beating and writing about it while it happens.

Thanks for the response BTS. As always, we are humbled by your vast knowledge and research on all subjects related to WW2 Must have been pretty cool firing a flamethrower

I think my biggest thing is the accuracy of the weapon as modeled in CM. Sometimes it feels like the thing is firing everywhere but where you want to fire it. I have had occasion to use them numerous times in CM - I don't know why, but I always seem to have them in the scenarios I play. As far as the effectiveness goes - I suppose it could be argued that maybe the casualties are more or less in line, but (and this is a big but) we are making several assumptions about what is going on. The squad is not going to be dispersed over the entire 20x20 square that is a tile in CM. Just looking at one squad standing in one square should be sufficient to see that this is a false assumption. To say that the flames only cover a 2x2 meter area is also questionable. Now I've never used a FlameThrower before, but from the newsreels of Marines flaming Japanese bunkers, the flame that is spewing forth is very robust in size, and easily exceeds 2m x 2m.

I have to say that I am a little disappointed in the performance of the Flame Thrower - especially the man pack version. First you only get eight or nine shots (reasonable), second you have to be within 32 meters (historically accurate), and third you have to stay alive long enough to use the dang thing (true enough). The problem is that after you have managed to work your way into position to use the thing, it seems like your chances of hitting are very low. I've had an enemy squad directly in front of me and the Flame Thrower team shoots its fiery fingers of death off to the extreme left or right - as if the guy using the thing was cross eyed. To top it all off, after securing one of those rare hits you might kill a man or two from the enemy squad if you are lucky. Now the morale effect is pretty severe (as it should be), but really - is the average flame thrower in CM really worth all the effort? It seems to me that the Flame Thrower is more of an area 'fire' device. Does it matter if your troops are hiding behind a tree or hiding in a foxhole when the fingers of flame are searching for you? No, I don't think it matters - so I believe that a squad's exposure should make NO difference in the accuracy of a Flame Thrower. The protection that you gain from being in a foxhole or in the woods should be reduced too for the same reasons as stated above. I welcome all flames that are added to this thread

Roster war Ceasefire? I think this thread was more like Roster War Open Fire!!

Personally, I really wish that the "last known location" marker would go away after about one minute or so and not remain until that unit is 're sighted'. This is especially bad when defending because you may want your troops to 'hide' but what is the point if you have the big iron cross or US star sitting on top of your location for the next 1000 years. Those last known location markers are also a little too 'spot on' for my tastes too ... just aiming at the little symbol with area fire is usually sufficient to destoy the unit. I know, I know, you can always shift your location, but sometimes when defending it can be difficult to do. You also can't confuse the enemy as to which unit they are looking at since the old 'last known location' marker only goes away when that specific unit is re sighted. Actually, I would rather not have a last known location marker at all. I think that is one item we can do without entirely.

Sorry Babra, while you may (or may not) be correct about WW2 doctrine etc, I know of several instances where infantry fought from half tracks. For instance, a rapidly advancing column who encounters light or scattered resistance can drive through or attack this resistance while remaining mounted if dismounting will slow the advance. You may not need to take the time to dismount and plan a deliberate attack. Sometimes speed of advance is more important than jumping out of your tracks everytime a minor roadblock is encountered. The bottom line is that, rather than 'legislating' that infantry may not fight out of halftracks, give the player the option to do so if he wants to. If he pays the price by using them that way, then he pays the price. Let me point one other thing out .. fighting from a halftrack does not necessarily mean firing out of it while moving. firing from a stationary halftrack is possible too you know.

I have to say that 'Gamey' tactics don't bother me too much. I think it really just depends on who you are playing. I usually play against life long friends and I know their tendencies and behaviors. Knowing your enemy is the key. When you are playing against strangers in a pick up game then I wouldn't assume anything unless an agreement has been made beforehand. Naturally these tactics can be effective if not anticipated. However, all of the 'gamey' tactics that have been described can be countered effectively if they are anticipated. My usual response to something 'gamey' is to demand a rematch so I can teach my 'gamey' opponent the folly of his ways. You don't like jeep rushes but your opponent uses them? give him some bait and bushwack his jeeps when he tries it again. The enemy buys nothing but King Tigers? buy nothing but AT assets and take him down. I do agree that the points should be adjusted for rarity though ... that is a significant flaw in the game I think.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Winchester really isn't comparing like to like. Either it is an unfortunate oversight or he is twisting facts so as to support his own hypothesis ( unforgiveable IMO).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bear in mind that you are only reading a small slice of his discussion on this topic. I believe that it was his purpose to show that the raw materials were not being efficiently turned into war making machines in a general sense, not just in terms of tanks and artillery. He was pointing out that there was a bottleneck in the system. For instance, he detailed how the French aircraft industry could produce around 5000 aircraft per year before the occupation, but only produced 2500 aircraft during the whole of the occupation of France.

I have been reading “Ostfront” by Charles Winchester and he raised some points that took me by surprise. I felt this to be a relevant topic in light of the recent discussions about the various qualities of the (cough) so called “Aryan” male I will take a few slices from his relatively short but precise work and elicit comments from our esteemed readers here. “The Red Army’s greatest quantitative advantage lay in its vastly superior numbers of tanks, aircraft, and (above all) artillery. This was not because the USSR enjoyed greater economic resources, but because its war economy was far better managed. Despite conquering so much of Europe, Germany signally failed to exploit this industrial windfall for military production. In 1943 Germany produced about FOUR TIMES as much steel and THREE TIMES as much coal as the USSR. Nevertheless, the Russians built 33 percent more tanks, 50 per cent more aircraft and vastly more heavy artillery pieces.” He also points out that “By the time Hitler attacked Russia, HALF the German industrial workforce was working on military orders – a greater devotion to military production than achieved by the USA in World War II. By every indicator of economic strength, Germany should have out – produced its opponents, enabling the Wehrmacht to face not just the Red Army, but the Western Allies invasion of France with every confidence. (snip) Yet, until 1943, even the much smaller British economy was out – building Germany in aircraft and warships, and closely matching its production of guns and tanks.” He raised another interesting issue which is related to this one, but I will include that one in another post. I added the caps for emphasis.

Oh, I have no doubt that the British force is a very powerful one ... especially in stand off fire power. I also have no doubt that the British can steamroll even a fairly good German defense plan. The trick as the German is to ... no, I will not reveal anymore Okay, perhaps I was overly critical in my initial assessment. I will now say that it is 70% pro German - maybe 50/50 with a British engineer platoon replacing a regular platoon. However, I will still stick to my guns (literally in this case). Okay Kwazydog, you are on. I will e-mail you when I get home. You too Grunto. That's it though .. I am now maxed out. Who knows, perhaps I will learn something too

Yes, I would even take Kwazydog on in this - he would naturally be more difficult to defeat, but defeat him I believe I could. First things first though - I will e-mail hoosier treadhead. Darwin, you are on the list - e-mail me when you are done. Preacher, sorry I didn't put Spoiler on this - I didn't think my comments warranted a notification. I can't seem to find an edit button anywhere, otherwise I would oblige you.

Spoilers may follow < < < < < < I have been looking over 'All or Nothing' after the issues I had with it when I played as the British. I examined the German forces and have come to the conclusion that for PBEM purposes this scenario is maybe 80 to 85 percent pro German if the British can't clear the minefield in front of the secondary bridge. One engineer platoon added to the initial OB for the British would reduce it to maybe 60 percent pro German. The only variables here being how effective the British artillery is and how lucky the British get with bogging. So here goes ... I am publicly announcing that I can't lose as the Germans in All or Nothing. Are there any intrepid souls out there that are willing to try to prove me wrong (and boast about it afterwards) in a PBEM match? Don't worry, I won't sweat it if you want to pack it in early ... just let me know when you have had enough. If you are a crusty veteran who wants to teach this newby a few manners ... bring your A game and be humbled. If you are new to wargaming and love abuse, let me know and I will heap it upon you. If you haven't played the scenario before you will probably want to try it first - although playing it blind might actually be an advantage in this case. I will reveal no more! Let me know if you are interested. [This message has been edited by ASL Veteran (edited 07-28-2000).]

I am sure that the designer worked hard on this scenario, but with all due respect, I think that the unclearable mines in front and behind the secondary bridge is gamey scenario design. Basically he is saying "you have one narrow route of attack (down the RR line) and I have designed this scenario in such a way that you must follow this twisty path that I have designated for you. Meanwhile I will focus the AI defense on denying you this one twisty path." Give the player the choice of which route to take and give him the tools to go whichever way he wants to. Give the enemy the ability to sufficiently deny or defend whichever route the Allies want to take, but don't give me some crap where you are ... anyway, that's enough for now

Yeah I heard of smoke. Didn't need it though cause the area in front of the bridge was not covered with heavy fire (although I did fire smoke to cover the first guys across). The infantry were getting hit on the ridge itself by the guys near the RR station. Once they got down near the bridge they could walk over with relative ease. I didn't even move half of my force after turn 50 because I was frustrated and lost interest. After numerous artillery barrages and with 10 tanks in front of the city shooting everything that breathed (and some things that weren't breathing) there wasn't much left in the city. No, the scenario is a good one - I just don't like the inability to breach the mines as far as the specific scenario goes - the other frustrations were in the game itself. If I had some engineers in the initial OB I would have been in the city by turn 35 at the latest and would have been mopping up by turn 50 or thereabouts. The only thing of consequence keeping me out of the city was the mines. I was so frustrated by the time I got to crossing the primary bridge (along with the problems of getting across - again game related not scenario related) that I just started going through the motions moving only the Croc to see what I could burn up and also to find out when the engineers arrived. I guess that my only complaint that is scenario specific is that I would like the ability to breach the minefield whenever I am ready. I just like to have the tools on hand to get the job done.

I half heartedly played out another ten turns and called a cease fire. I had stopped playing the whole scenario right before I wrote the initial post. I pretty much just forgot about the troops in front of the city and concentrated on the RR service road. I didn't figure I had enough time to take everything I needed to take. Turns out I was kicking the Krauts butt even with all my incompetence and lack of interest in the last twenty turns. I had already basically taken out everything of consequence on the German side and had I taken out the JagdPanzer on the RR tracks I would have waltzed into the victory locations. I don't think it will be very close if I play it again as the Allies against the AI. Allies 94 casualties, 8 vehicles ko. Krauts 211 casualties, 5 guns ko, 12 vehicles ko, 6 POW. Allies 52, Krauts 48. Engineers arrive too late to have an effect (turn 62 I think it was).

"More importnatly I talked to WW2 vets, not truck drivers or cannon cockers mind you but infantryman and not just to hear stuff like how many krauts tehy rounded up in '44 or how nice the whore houses were in Paris" Oh my

Spoilers follow < < < < < < I was playing ‘All or Nothing’ the other night (still am actually), and I have encountered several frustrating ‘features’ of this game (the best WW2 tactical game on the computer ever made). This was written in a complete state of agitation and no research was done to verify any historical reasoning. Okay, it’s about turn 20 or so and I am rolling along. Took the ridge overlooking the city with little difficulty and set up some FO s and Vickers at the top. I had two platoons of infantry up top and decided to sneak them down toward the bottom of the ridge. Mean time my armor support went under the bridge and around the ridge with little difficulty and lined up on the road in front of the city. My only losses at that point was one unfortunate Churchill who was on the bridge pointing toward the city who got knocked out in the left side of his turret as he fired at some pioneers on the other side of the river (to his right) thus blocking the bridge completely. My Bren Carrier had detected some mines at both ends of the bridge – the ones on my side were located on either side of the road, but not on it, while a daisy chain was laid across the road on the far side of the bridge. The plan was to bring some infantry (two platoons) down to the bridge from the ridge, clear the daisy chain on the other side of the river and bring the Croc into town to wreak havoc. That plan fell apart because my troops were having difficulty on the German side of the ridge. Part of the problem was frustration A: as my troops were sneaking down the ridge, they kept shooting at the Germans who were running about like Pheasants on the other side. One squad was continuously firing at a light armored vehicle? about … get this … 784 meters away!! I kept putting them on Hide, and they kept firing at that damn HT. I was to the point of screaming at the monitor “Hey ChowderHead, what the F do you think you are going to accomplish here!! Save your ammo and blend in with the trees!!” A lot of my squads were down to half strength so I just had them hide near the base of the ridge – some of them still firing at ridiculous targets. Anyway, I went to plan B: take the reinforcement Challengers, load a platoon on them, drive across the bridge to just in front of the daisy chain, have the infantry remove the daisy chain and proceed with getting the Croc over to wreak havoc on the city. This leads to frustration B – just as my lead Challenger reaches my side of the bridge “BOOM” hits a mine and is destroyed. Second one follows right into the same minefield “BOOM” and is immobilized. So what you ask? Well, how the heck did the Krauts bury their mines in a Fing PAVED ROAD!! I could accept it if it was a daisy chain but it wasn’t. Well, after that frustration the infantry walked across the bridge anyway and I put them next to the daisy chain laying across the road on the Kraut’s side of the bridge. Turns out that only engineers can clear mines … of ANY kind. Even some AT mines just laying out in the road!! Come on … I don’t really care how long it takes, but even standard infantry should be able to clear a freakin daisy chain laying out on a paved road!! All this ridiculousness (and wasted time) goes for nothing because the designer decided to make the secondary bridge impassible to armor (not a single engineer in the order of battle). Now I have to go back to the primary bridge that the Churchill is blocking. I turn the Croc around and drive back to the Primary Bridge so he can clear the other Churchill off the bridge. Mean time a whole mess of reinforcements have arrived so I decide that I’ll send them across the primary bridge once the wreckage is cleared. I kept waiting for the troops that were supposedly coming up the RR service road, but they don’t seem to be included unless they come later. Anyway, after a few traffic snarls the reinforcements finally get lined up in front of the bridge – which brings me to frustration C: Why can’t trucks, jeeps, and scout cars have a speed in between walking speed and maximum speed?? That frustration is minor though compared to the bridge fiasco. Okay, here goes … The Croc nudges past the Churchill on the bridge and gets across no problem. The following Cromwell then knocks the Churchill down to the ground below the bridge (I have to admit that I was looking forward to a hollywood style Churchill tumbling to the ground below, but it just sort of teleported down). Okay, so then the Cromwell stops mid bridge and takes out an SP gun (which brewed up my Firefly near the river who maneuvered with the express purpose of destroying it, but for some reason never spotted it) and continues on to the other side. Next vehicle across is a Wolverine. He gets about three quarters of the way across and engages a Mark IV that my Piat team on the other side of the secondary bridge could not take out with six shots (such is the fortune of war). He brews up the Mark IV but gets brewed up at the same time. Bridge blocked again. The next vehicles in line behind the burning M10 is a Humber, a Cromwell, and another Wolverine. Suddenly the Wolverine at the end of the bridge (about one quarter of the way out) brews up. I have burning Wolverine bookends surrounding a Cromwell and a Humber. Humber can’t get past the Wolverine in front and is blocked by the Cromwell and Wolverine behind. I take the Cromwell who made it across the first time and knock the Wolverine on the far end into the rocks below the bridge thus allowing the Humber and the second Cromwell to cross. I then move the Sexton from the ridge side of the river to knock the other Wolverine off the bridge and the Sexton makes it across – which leads me to frustration D: turns out that a tank has to be hit TWICE before it gets knocked out of the way – which is what I was inadvertantly doing before. All the halftracks that are following the Sexton get jammed up because they can’t follow the Sexton past the Wolverine!! Some even end up testing the slope near the bridge entrance. Finally I say to hell with it and I send the Croc forward to the cross roads while I bring up the other Sexton from the rear of the column to finish the job of knocking the Wolverine off the bridge. Meanwhile I have to rearrange all those halftracks and trucks to the side of the road again while the Sexton comes up. My only satisfaction came when the Croc burnt a Flak gun and a pair of trucks at the cross roads as the 20mm shells bounced harmlessly off it’s thick hide. I have 20 more turns left. Hopefully I won’t need to vent anymore before the end.

I was going to take a stab at "Beast at Bay", but there would be no way to simulate the out of gas German tanks. Plus my system keeps locking up. Anyway, letting the German actually drive around in those 12 Panthers and 4 King Tigers would be unfair I think.

Hey Wild Bill, I've enjoyed your work since TOAW, but having played Fear in the Fog as both the Americans and the Germans I have come to the conclusion that the scenario is pro American. It would only take a few minor tweaks to make it fully balanced though. I think the German player needs about three to five more turns - and I think that maybe the German reinforcements need to come in about three turns earlier and a little farther back (closer to the board edge). For the curious, I got a total victory as both sides - 90 to 10 as the German and 97 to 3 as the American. No, I won't reveal how

I have found that you should just ignore the victory flags when playing as the exiting side in a scenario. Just go for the exits.

Funny you guys should mention Lt Stahler .. I swear that guy would never break. That counter must have some special karma or something. Red Barricades was awesome! I would love to see RB converted to CM. I had the good fortune to have nine local friends who all played ASL - each one with their unique style of play. One of them went with the saying "All I need is a 9-2 and a heavy machine gun". There were basically three camps - dispersion camp (very little stacking), big stack camp (power stacks with two or three leader directed MGs in each), and the moderation camp (somewhere in between). Ahhh, so many memories I'll never forget the time my Matilda got a critical hit with an AP round on a full platoon of infantry and took out the whole stack (plus leader) when they all tied on the critical hit die roll Naturally my opponent was infuriated!!

Wow, those maps look great! I tried to recreate one of the maps from Kampfgruppe Peiper and met with frustration. It's kinda wierd looking at those maps after playing on them for the last 20 years - or however long it has been since the 'Purple box' SL hit the shelves Now if I could just get this doggone game to go more than six turns before locking up!!