19 Echo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollstoy: How did the mud get on top of the tank? Regards, Thomm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As a former tanker, let me assure you that this is very realistic. Mud on the turret roof would not be out of place. Tanks in the field tend to all be the same color -- brown. -- Mike Zeares

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TP_Bomber: Im rushing to the video store right now to rent it! Im sure I will learn much about tank tactics in it so I use what I learn in CM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm assuming you're referring to "Tank Girl." I really hope your comments above were tongue-in-cheek. If they were serious, hoo boy, are you in for a shock. I'm still mad that I paid money to see that piece of sh*%. Biggest movie disappointment I've ever had, because the comic books were really cool, and it got one good local review (I should have listened to the other local review). It's not a war movie. It's not about tank tactics. It's not about tanks. It's about Lori Petty destroying her career in a really bad sci-fi flick. Pure MST3K fodder. I only hope that you read this warning before it's too late. -- Mike Zeares

I've seen photos of whitewashed HT's and other U.S. vehicles. Usually there were patches left undone, like around the bumper numbers and other indentifying marks. I've also seen photos where it appeared that the crew attempted to apply the whitewash in a camo pattern, leaving stripes or patches of green. Most of the few photos of winter-camo'ed German vehicles I've seen were just solid whitewash too, but I have seen some that looked like the camo pattern mods that have been done for CM. Speaking of sheets, many G.I.'s used them for their personal camo. They didn't have the neat snow suits that some of the Germans did. A neat winter mod would be to have G.I.'s wearing their greatcoats. There's lots of photographic evidence for that. Also they often wore their cold-weather caps with the flaps pulled down under their steel pots. -- Mike Zeares (p.s. your tanks look great, can't wait 'til your final version is available for PC's)

I was playing the scenario with the Polish armor. Don't read if you don't want spoilers. Anyway, I was playing the Poles. This was one of my first scenarios, and I really stank. I killed most of the German armor, and blocked them, but I lost all of my tanks. Most of the Germans just floundered around and died, but there was one Panther that I just couldn't kill. It kept anticipating my moves. I'd position some tanks to attack it -- it would back up and hide. I'd smoke it and try to move to get a flank shot -- it would turn to face my tank, which would back up without shooting. No matter how I tried to manuever, it would be in a position to counter it. I tried to sneak bazookas -- it killed them. All of this while buttoned. Finally, with all of my tanks knocked out and bazooka teams dead, it started counter-attacking one of my infantry platoons. They were running for their lives when the scenario mercifully ended. It said I won a major victory. Didn't feel like one. -- Mike Zeares

Nah, it's obvious: The Ghost of General Lee was guiding them. -- 19 Echo

I've had the computer pull diversions on me. I don't know if it's that good or if I just suck. Back to the little QB's. You have to be careful with the 300 point ones. I set one up where I decided to buy my units. I wanted to make a little recon probe, so I bought 2 250/1's and a 234/1 (I think that's right. The 8-wheeler with a 20mm). That's all I could afford. I figured the computer would buy a HT and maybe an M-8 or something. I was rather perturbed when instead I ran into an M-36. I might have been able to take it out with the 20mm, but I didn't try to find out. Darn sneaky computer. No wonder people buy KT's. -- 19 Echo

Just to give you an idea of what can happen, I played a scenario in which I executed a beautiful all-out infantry charge against a weakly-held position. There happened to be a German tank on the hill, and I decided to close-assault it, since it seemed rattled by my arty fire and was mostly just sitting there. So I gathered up my nearly full strength platoon and bazooka team and gave them their movement orders. During the turn, as they were advancing, I heard a Jabo. There was a tremendous blast -- and the THREE survivors of my platoon ran for their lives to the rear. The worst of it was, the Jabo didn't even take out the tank it was aiming at. First time a computer wargame has made me just want to cry. -- 19 Echo

I once ordered extra "Panzer Leader" counters so I could make full-strength Panzer and U.S. armored divisions. Man, that was a lot of counters.... Making a regimental-sized unit in CM would be fun. Once. -- 19 Echo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bugger Stein: I owe it to myself to clarify things, Hmmmm, looking at my post in the thread of fallschirmjägers is very confusing, I just popped in without reading the background, stumbled across the Tickle-Me-Hitler post and got this image of a MATTEL series of the wartime leaders. This was a bit unfortunate (Jochen, seriously, "Rat**** Roosevelt", come on...) Honestly, I was way out of line, getting carried away, actually now in the light of things, I´m feeling a bit ashamed. [snip]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dude, lighten up. I riffed on something funny that Fionn said, and you took it from there (I've got a better idea for a Roosevelt doll; you wind him up and he tries to stack the Supreme Court against you). Anyone who's rational can see that it was all in fun. Don't worry about what anyone irrational thinks. -- Mike Zeares (19 Echo)

There was a lot of calling for the points in Quick Battles to be increased, and it is fun to try to put together Kampfgruppe Peiper. But I find myself having the most fun with 300-500 points. I usually let the computer pick, and I generally end up with 2 inf platoons and some support weapons, maybe a tank or an armored car. Played on small or medium maps, usually 20 turns, this makes for some quick and vicious combat without getting worn out giving orders to a horde of units. For someone who isn't very good, like me, it's a great way to work out tactics before tackling the big scenarios. My favorite game moment so far came in one of these little QB's. I had a 75mm IG (the computer LOVES to pick those) that was just shelling the crap out of some American armored infantry. Suddenly this bazooka team ran about 50 meters in open terrain to a point about 20m away from the gun, right against the map edge. As the gunners frantically tried to turn their gun, the zook team knocked it out with one shot, then ran away again. I don't know if those guys were crazy or just pissed off, but they oughta get a medal. -- 19 Echo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Sheesh, ok, don't forget this. The Germans wore nothing but lederhosen (and I mean nothing butlederhosen ) and loved nothing better than to tickle Hitler till he gigled like a baby. (That includes ur grandad).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [oompah music] NEW FROM MATTEL, IT'S "TICKLE-ME HITLER!" [shot of "Tickle-Me Hitler" giggling like a baby] [shot of happy children playing with "Tickle-Me Hitler"] YES, "TICKLE-ME HITLER" IS A WONDERFUL FRIEND FOR EVERY GIRL AND BOY! WHY, EVEN YOUR GRANDAD WILL LOVE "TICKLE-ME HITLER!" [shot of your grandad, wearing lederhosen and a Tyrolean hat, doing the Bavarian Slap-Yourself-Silly Dance] Grandad: "Ja ja! Ich liebe "Tickle-Me Hitler!" [shot of a giggling "Tickle-Me Hitler"] SO GO GET "TICKLE-ME HITLER" TODAY! SOLD AT FINE TOY STORES EVERYWHERE! [final shot: Grandad trips over a Really Long-Ass Alpine Horn. Oompa music crashes to a halt. "Tickle-Me Hitler" giggles] -- Mike Zeares (aka 19 Echo)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: Have you read Cornelius Ryan's The Longest Day yet? I bet you'd like it. Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Read it years ago, along with The Last Battle and A Bridge Too Far. Very good books. The D-Day book I haven't read is Max Hastings' Overlord. -- 19 Echo

"Six Armies in Normandy" is also one of my favorites. I also highly recommend Keegan's "The Second World War." One of the finest one-volume short histories of the war that I've ever read. For that matter, I highly recommend anything by Keegan. I'm currently reading "A Time For Trumpets" by Charles MacDonald, and recently finished "Company Commander." I'm hoping to make some CM scenarios based on the latter. Both books are absolutely first-rate. People like to bitch about Stephen Ambrose over-emphasizing the Americans (why shouldn't he? I don't begrudge the Brits for all those books on how Monty won the war ), and I don't think he's the best writer, but "D-Day" is a fine account of that battle (and does cover all the Allied armies). I didn't like "Citizen Soldiers" as much, although Ambrose makes some very interesting observations and pointed criticisms of the American command style. I just found his "Pegasus Bridge" in a B&N, and I'll probably get that one soon. 19 Echo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L.Tankersley: Zaffod (should that be "Zaphod?"), one other thing you might find amusing: US halftracks were called "purple heart boxes" during the war. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My maternal grandfather drove a HT, and later commanded an M-16. I don't know the details, but apparently there were at least a couple of occasions in which only he survived. He drove back from a mission with the crew area all shot up and full of dead GI's. He started drinking heavily after that. The old line about the German bullets just going in one side and bouncing around for a while was true. -- 19 Echo

BOHICA: Bend Over, Here It Comes Again. My tank gunners frequently have CSS: Can't See Sh*&. -- 19 Echo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: Generally though I think 60mm mortars are really only useful for suppression. If you're waiting to see them take out a squad you'll be waiting for a long time UNLESS the squad is in a building or some other favourable mortar terrain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, but they're really good for suppression. You can have them fire until your own infantry is practically on top of the enemy without worrying too much about short rounds. They're also nice if you need smoke right now. I've found that their crews are pretty good at picking their own targets if they have LOS. I've played a number of scenarios where they fired right where I needed them to without my ordering them. I was surprised at how powerful the 81mm mortars are. The 120's are downright terrifying. -- 19 Echo

I think experience is the important thing too. Yesterday in a QB I had a veteran Panther make a pretty nice shot on a Sherman that was hauling ass about 550m away (with its side to my tanks -- stupid of it). The shot appeared to hit right at the highest part of the side armor. Since it was an M4A1, the resulting explosion was darned impressive. Anyway, in other battles with regular crews, my tanks often requrire several shots to hit a stationary target, let alone a moving one. I have also seen tanks and TD's hit stationary targets while moving, which is an even tougher challenge. Back to the original question -- gunner's sights had markings to assist in leading moving targets, but it really came down to the gunner's experience. Same with range estimation. I've read that Wittmann's gunner just left his sight set at 800m and could tell from the fall of his first shot (if it missed) how much to add or subtract elevation to get a hit on the second without further fiddling with his sight. He was supposed to be a wiz at hitting moving targets too. -- 19 Echo

I find it fun in QB's to try to come up with a reason for the makeup of my forces. I had one, set in Jan '45, with 4 Jdgpz IV's , a Lynx, a Puma, and a couple of SPW 250's, plus some Panzergrenadiers. I figured this was the remnants of a Panzer division in the Ardennes, its Aufklaerung Abteilung and a Panzerjaeger outfit (this was the battle in which I learned the Churchhill is pretty much proof against the L48 75mm gun from the front, to my horror). In the above example, obviously your Canadians overran a FLAK unit in the rear areas. That would actually be a fun DYO scenario, if you want to watch your tanks drive around and shoot a bunch of stuff. Some artillery, FLAK, and a bunch of trucks and jeeps/K-wagens. Have a tank section show up as reinforcements (the HQ tanks coming to the rescue). Padlock some of the infantry in a straight line -- they're lined up for chow! What would be really cool, and which can't be done in CM at this time, if ever, is to have tanks with dismounted crews. It's a maintenance area, or refueling, or something. This would only work if the crews could then mount the empty tanks. -- 19 Echo

That's an interesting AAR. When I played it for the first time (Allied), I either misunderstood the briefing, or promptly forgot it as soon as the map appeared. I was thinking that the Germans were going to be coming from in front of me. So I moved out cautiously, advancing one squad across open areas before the rest of the plt, for example, basically in line abreast. I was not expecting the Germans to come from my right flank (looking back, I really misunderstood the briefing). When they started appearing, I had one platoon in that corner of woods by the wheatfield, where the sound contacts are in Heinz's first screenshot. The others were in the station, and I had to redeploy them to meet the attack. That first platoon was badly mauled, but it also tore up the better part of two German platoons. The StuG did quite a bit of damage before I took it out (I forget how, but I think it was a zook. I had trouble getting my tanks into useful positions). My reserves showed up just in time, and I rushed them into postion, sending one to my right to replace the mauled platoon, one to the center, and the third along the north-south road. That was a good choice, because the AI tried to bypass the station and cross that road. My platoon there acted as an anvil. The hammer was provided by the two tanks, 3 platoons, and arty, all pouring fire into the woods, which turned into a real Hexenkessel. There were bodies stacked up like cordwood in the corner formed by the station and the road, and the few survivors surrendered. After the battle, I was shocked to see a Panther sitting on the crossroads. It had never entered the battle. Overall, I was rather pleased with myself, since I usually have all the tactical finesse of U.S. Grant. I did make one horrible error. In my zeal to kill more Germans, I sent a somewhat shot-up platoon into the woods, only to see them wiped out in one turn. I played this balanced. I'll have to try giving the AI advantage and see what happens. Probably won't be pretty. -- 19 Echo

Fionn, So how do you feel about "Patton?" I personally don't have a problem with the M-48's and -47's. At the time it was normal practice to use those models in WWII movies. Whinging about "wrong" tanks is such a grognardy thing to do. Anyone who wants to make an authentic WWII armor movie with big tank battles is going to have a problem with German tanks. There just aren't that many running. Of course, they could always do VISMODS on T-34's or something (but then the grogs will complain about the suspension being wrong ). Or there's CGI. But I like seeing real tanks. I love the Battle of El Guetar (sp?)in "Patton," when the American tanks hit the Germans' flank. Some good wide shots in that scene. Anyone know where they got all those tanks from? Couldn't have been cheap. "Battle of the Bulge" has huge flaws, but Telly Savalas is a hoot. And of course, there's the "Panzerlied." Stomp stomp. -- 19 Echo (Mike Zeares)

Thanks for the review, John. I'll have to hunt for this book. I just mentioned in another thread The First Salute, by Barbara Tuchmann (author of The Guns of August). The title refers to an incident early in the war when an American ship was saluted by a Dutch colony in the Carribean. This annoyed the hell out of the British, since it constituted a recognition of American independence. Most of the book is concerned with the efforts of Thomas Jefferson and his merry band of diplomats to secure arms and political support from European nations, and how these efforts were ineffectually countered by the British (mostly through dire threats, which were largely ignored). It also covers some of the naval actions. The ground war is touched on only peripherally. This is a side of the war that is often glossed over in the history books. Sure, we know about Ben Franklin in Paris, and about French support, but did you know that without Dutch arms the Revolution would have failed quickly? Did you know that the British ended up at war with practically the whole world (because they would declare war when their dire threats were ignored) by 1781? An absolutely facinating read, and Tuchmann is a great writer. -- 19 Echo

My U.S. History professor compared the relationship between Britain and the American colonies to a child who is never disciplined, then suddenly on his 18th birthday a bunch of iron-clad rules are laid on him. The Americans had been left alone pretty much until Britain found itself in deep debt after the Seven Years War. Really, the taxes at first weren't the horrible burden our historical propoganda makes them seem. But the way they were instituted -- without input from the colonies -- rubbed the Americans the wrong way. We've always been a prickly bunch. The "Intolerable Acts" were a response to "terrorists acts" by the Americans, such as the Tea Party and the tar-and-feathering of British tax collectors. They included things like the closing of Boston harbor, quartering of British troops in private homes, etc. After that, war with at least Massachusetts was inevitable. In "The First Salute" by Barbara Tuchmann, it's quite amusing to see how Britain managed to find herself at war with practically all of Europe before the Revolution was over, largely out of spite (the Europeans were quite happy to supply the Americans with arms in defiance of British warnings not to do so). The diplomatic side of the war is just as facinating as the military side. -- 19 Echo

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: I also saw a Sherman tracing its LOS/LOF through a house yesterday. This struck me as so odd that I viewed it from several angles just to be sure I wasn't mistaken. While the actual shell trajectory might have passed over the house, no way could it have had an LOS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This came up in another thread. BTS said that it's a result of the way the LOS routine and the terrain tiles interact. Basically, LOS can be traced through the corner of a building. I've noticed this in most battles I've played. It's annoying, but they said that computing true LOS would eat up too much CPU power. Just mentally note that the building isn't as big as it appears to be, so if you hide behind one, make sure you hide behind the middle of it. -- 19 Echo

The computer does sometimes put together a "creative" force mix. In one Axis defensive battle I got 4 Jgpz IV's, 2 Marder III's, a HT, a HT 81mm mortar, and a Lynx, plus 2 Pzgd platoons and a 75mm SiG. This was a Jan. 45 battle, so I figure this was the remnants of a Panzer division in the Ardennes. The computer decided to throw a whole bunch of Churchills and Shermans at me. Did you know a 75mm AP round will bounce right off the front of a Churchill? I know now. There were no good defensive positions. I tried to set up keyhole shots using buildings, but it didn't help. I did take out a Sherman with the SiG, though. I get those a lot in defensive battles. Interestingly, I haven't fought Americans yet. Always British or Canadians. -- 19 Echo

I've been having a great deal of fun with quick battles, but I've seen some odd things with the terrain. When I choose "moderate hills," the computer will often put a road on hills that can't be driven over. In one battle, there was this big flat-topped hill right in the middle of the map. It was almost sheer-sided, yet it had a road going over it (looked like a helipad on top). My Panther wisely rerouted itself around it instead of trying to climb it. I'll have to try for this with Shermans; I've read that they could climb ridiculously steep slopes, and I wonder if CM models this. That same battle put a village on the side of a long hill that took up most of one side of the map. Reminded me of small towns I lived in in Pennsylvania. Rather tricky to fight through in tanks. So, what's the silliest terrain you've seen the computer come up with? Did you change it in the editor, or try to work around it? -- 19 Echo