Andreas

The much improved handling of artillery (I am amazed that gets so little notice), and the... oh wait, you would not have seen them...

I think there is a whole huge data problem with captured equipment. Very little data seems to be extant, and if you go by picture archives, you are really seeing skewed selections, because these vehicles would presumably have been pictured more often. I think Kip has some info somewhere on the utility of captured vehicles (very little, due to various problems, just a waste of resources). I think it is good they are in - it will please ladder players, because they can finally balance their games completely. E.g. each side gets two Panthers and an SMG company, and an 81mm mortar FOO on a loaded chess-board map - I mean, how much more exciting can CM get? Rock on! If you don't like it, just don't use them - in a QB, just switch rarity on, and nobody will buy them. There are some fairly off-the-wall vehicles in on the German side that probably were as rare as captured Soviet Panthers.

Eh? That information was avalible in CMBO in the beta demo.</font>

Certainly in the context of the mid-to-late war Soviet forward detachment, as outlined in the Handbook of Soviet Forces TM30-430. Instead of rehashing it, here is the page showing the breakthrough operation, and the text that makes it clear that mine-clearing was done under fire, by minerollers. The rhomboids with an 'E' in them are mine-roller T34s. The picture shows three stages of the same formation, forming up (bottom), breaking through with minerollers in the lead (centre), and spreading out (top). That should be pretty clear.

The multiple gun problem - I thought BTS had made an official statement to that effect. Ooops.

By me at least. Since Der Kessel is shut for new business, you have to get them here as a zipped file. It contains playtested and hopefully playable (well, that's what the testers told me anyway) scenarios. </font> Tessel Wood - 49th Polar Bears against 12th SS in Normandy (semi-historical)</font> Another village - KG Peiper meets the damned engineers, again... (semi-historical)</font> Nowt for Nowt - The Germans have a run-in with the lads from Yorkshire, 49th Polar Bears again. This time it is in Holland. (semi-historical)</font> BB - A local affair. Based on a snippet in 18 Platoon. Get those pesky Somersets out of our trench (semi-historical)</font> DFDR - Fliederbluehn - the last gasp in Tunisia (historical) </font>Hopefully that will help you while away the time until the release

By me at least. Since Der Kessel is shut for new business, you have to get them here as a zipped file. It contains playtested and hopefully playable (well, that's what the testers told me anyway) scenarios. </font> Tessel Wood - 49th Polar Bears against 12th SS in Normandy (semi-historical)</font> Another village - KG Peiper meets the damned engineers, again... (semi-historical)</font> Nowt for Nowt - The Germans have a run-in with the lads from Yorkshire, 49th Polar Bears again. This time it is in Holland. (semi-historical)</font> BB - A local affair. Based on a snippet in 18 Platoon. Get those pesky Somersets out of our trench (semi-historical)</font> DFDR - Fliederbluehn - the last gasp in Tunisia (historical) </font>Hopefully that will help you while away the time until the release

I'd be interested, because you certainly can't play with it in CMBB...

Peter - and I forgot to mention. To alleviate one of your concerns, in the full version 'fanaticism' is still an option. Can't remember now if it is different from CMBO, so it probably is not. I do not know if the Soffjets (German in-joke) are fanatical in Yelnia Stare or not. I can check tonight though, if Steve does not mind.

Peter - first of all, the full version has a QB and scenario editor that will enable you to do all that you missed in this one, and get it 'right'. Secondly, read my post above - Soviet tanks broke through the German lines. Soviet infantry did not really. Now I understand this is what happens in playing the scenario too. You would need the infantry to secure the position against counter-attack. You need it to protect your tanks. I'll try to see what happens with a tank only attack tonight, and post the results here. I played it, as Germans PBEM. Not at all an enjoyable experience if what you like is a balanced game, and I believe my opponent did not really enjoy whipping his Soviets into shape. Certainly enjoyable for me because it felt very historical - which is the reason why I love this game.

Sodd it - I am in agreement with Dale. That can't be. BTS, fix or somefink!!

I actually think Yelnia Stare is pretty historical. In Real Life Soviet tanks managed to get through the German lines (I have provided some (less dramatic) evidence on this in a thread on the now CMBO board). Soviet infantry really did not. In the end the Germans had to withdraw, but it was no rout. It was, as the briefing tells us correctly, the first operational defeat of the Wehrmacht. On the tactical level though, the Germans were largely unbeaten - it was just that they could not simultaneously close the Kiev pocket and hold the Yelnia salient. In realistic terms, once the Soviets manage to defeat the Germans in Yelnia Stare, you would expect their division to scratch together some cooks and drivers, with maybe a bit of artillery, and counter-attack, driving the Soviets out again. But that is another scenario. I think the scenario does this depict the sort of fighting in the salient quite well. If you of course believe that Paul Schmidt (aka Carrell) or James Lucas purvey true unadulterated history, you will disagree.

What?! After we just got Charles to take them out again (Take out the dynamic lighting, or the Weasel gets it!). Splinter!

Interesting - I'll check that on the beta forum. Basically the feature is to protect multiplayer games from being dragged out to death if one player refuses to accept he is beaten. Maybe it should have been auto-surrender in your case. Ah well, something to discuss with the other game-wreckers, err, beta-testers...

21 x 4 = 84 85 > 84 = forced cease-fire due to global morale.

Hey, while you're in there, you think you could mention something about the follow command? Thanks</font>

And that surprises you why? Sorry Pad, but with the reaction by quite a number of people here, after the two years of very hard work by BTS to get this game out, I am surprised that Steve still has the humour and civility that he has shown in this thread and elsewhere. Count it for yourself - how many threads here are griping about something, in many cases absolutely piddling nonsense, that can be modded in a flash (the interface, and the shockwaves come to mind). How many threads are actually saying - yes, I don't like all aspects of CMBB, but fundamentally this game rocks and you should be congratulated for it. The nattering nabobs of negativim have a fairly firm grasp on this board at the moment it seems, with their inability to see the forest (CMBB's improved quality of simulation) for the trees (no [insert personal gripe No.XX here] wawawa) attitude. Oh, and when you dare remind people of that, you are being called a brown-noser. Andreas (with his head firmly wedged up Charles' arse - at least there is more light shining from it than from this thread)

So what are you saying Andreas? That it rocked at beta version 1, but they got it to suck just right before sending it into reproduction? </font>

And telling people who agree with BTS that they are shoving their heads up Steve's arse is then? Thank you for your constructive statement, you may head back to the Peng Thread, where your presence is appreciated by some.

Well, I understand what you are saying. The thing to me is that there is little you can do about it. CM is a complex game. CMBB more so than CMBO. I get frustrated with some scenarios because of that, I have for example just emailed a fellow beta tester asking to break off a game we play because it is just not interesting me. I have heard from a few people that they looked at the CMBO demo and did not like it at first, then months later came back to it and bought it. I certainly did not understand how CMBO worked after playing the beta demo for five minutes, or even ten. I still pre-ordered the next day. The core audience will get this game. Some others will get this game too. Between these two groups, BTS has a market sufficient to tide them over nicely. I think one thing people here fail to appreciate is how bloody difficult scenario design can be, and that time pressure does not make it easier. Ever wondered why some of the scenarios on the CMBO CD are less than stellar? Well, it is because you need a certain je ne sais quoi to make a really riotingly good CM scenario. Once you have that, you need a sufficient time too. Desertfox has put out three or four really great scenarios over the two years the game is out. My own favourite scenario (I really don't care very much if people don't like it), 'Into the East' took me six months of on- and off work to do. That was after I played CMBO for about a year. I think some people here don't realise how spoilt they are by the great selection of CMBO custom-made scenarios, and they expect that same standard in the demo. That is difficult, if not impossible to achieve. They also seem to want to relive the child-eyed wonder that they had when they first came across CMBO, Beta or Gold. Well, like most things, the first time has a certain appeal to it, and can not be recaptured. Do I think they are whingers? No. Do I think they are being a bit unrealistic in their expectations? Hell yes. I get off my soapbox now.

I would also like to add that I still have Beta version 1 on my HDD. Which was perfect, and not at all what you see now.

May I add that I am very proud to have played a role, no matter how small as a beta tester, in totally f*cking up the game too. My weekly rants about 'Things that work and need to go before publishing the demo' obviously had the desired effect. Thank you.

Ah well... Criticism of BTS (no matter how stupid) = well-meaning, justified, because we care, smells of roses Saying that BTS have done something right = arsekissing Welcome to the wonderful world of Phantom Rocker with the 5-min attention span.

Greg, very interesting post. Not sure what info Glantz has. It sounds an awful lot like the stuff Chuikov was alluding to, according to Zhukov. I think that the fairly violent reaction to the establishment of the Kuestrin bridgehead was a portent of things to come. While it would no doubt have been groovy to take Berlin from the move, it ceases to be such a smart idea once you look at the way the railway lines and autobahnen run, and who can get there with the mostest if need be. The 1st Belorussian Front may well have been able to get there and take part of it. Would they have been able to hold it though? I don't know, but I know I would not have taken that gamble.

Indeed I have - it is called 'stupidity', and I suffer from it. Woe is me...