Wolfe

Bullethead wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First off, I expressly stated in my original post that all my suggestions apply to arty ONLY, not mortars.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok, no problem. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First off, all shells have a kill radius extending some distance beyond their point of impact. And shells do not all land in the same hole, so all around the target point you have shells exploding. Their kill radii overlap and extend beyond the furthest craters all around.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, but for the smaller stuff, the kill radius is much smaller and you will usually need multiple hits to the same area to do any real damage. And the pic above shows 6 FOs firing at the same spot, making a *much* more dense impact pattern than you would ever realistically see in a game. And enemy troops have an annoying habit of wanting to move out of your kills zones. Being able to adjust barrages finely is very important IMO. I too would like to see the maximum arty adjustment allowed (currently 100m?) be increased, but minimum remain as is. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your picture shows the typical mortar distribution for an LOS shot: the effective impact area is about 160x80m. That for arty is slightly tighter, but not significantly. In both cases, the kill radii of the outermost shells extends some distance beyond the holes in the map. So the kill zone in both cases is going to be close to 100m wide.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here are shells patterns for 75mm arty (again 6 FOs apiece). Target centers are 100m apart (green and blue lines point to target). Even if you go by shell blast radii, there's no overlap. http://users.erols.com/chare/cm/Brit_75mm_arty.jpg Maybe I'm using my arty wrong, but I often find myself adjusting in fairly small increments (30m~80m at a time to try to follow troops on the move). I also use small adjustments to delay the start of the bombardment in the next turn. Hopefully that's not considered gamey. - Chris

Damn it's late. Ok, so those lines are actually 40mx40m, not 20mx20m as I first thought when posting the above. But I think the observation still holds. For mortars atleast, getting an effective (tight) spread is important because of their smaller HE blast. A 100m min movement would be too coarse, IMO. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-26-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: Reading this again, I find myself wondering if the kill radius in the game is as large as you are positing here. If it is not, than 100 meter increment shifts are going to be too coarse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Some really good ideas here, BH. But I'd have to agree with Michael on this point, particularly for mortar FOs. Brit 3in mortars will only make an effective kill area of ~40mx20m for targets within LOS. There are certainly a decent number of outliers beyond those ranges, but it only looks like a max of 80mx40m for total coverage to me (excluding about a dozen extreme longs and shorts). Here's a picture (green line points to target; six 3in mortar FOs fired their allotment of 180 mortars each): http://users.erols.com/chare/cm/Brit_3in_mortars.jpg A 100m min movement for these particular shell types would be way too big IMO. And from your numbers previously: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/010543.html The regular spread for guns have a max width of 60m (30m on either side of target center). Moving 100m "sideways" wouldn't even allow those patterns to overlap at all. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-26-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Callmeyer: Does no one have an opinion about which tanks are best in CM? I was hoping to hear some opinions on this topic when I wandered into the thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Some previous threads on the subject: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/010218.html Definitely try out as many tanks as possible in QBs vs the AI. It'll give you a good feel for what you like and don't like. And play Wild Bill's Wittmann scenario (Villers-Bocage Tiger!) over and over as Germans. Even though you're only playing with one tank type, the tactics you use to win translate well to other AFVs. I'm currently in my 'British tank w/ 95mm gun' period. But tastes do change. - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton: Wolfe: I am not sure this is a valid comparison. You are assuming that CM treats 'dug in' tanks exactly the same as a tank that is hull down (from 360^). I don't know if this is true, but it should be easy to test try it again with the German tank NOT dug in and just hull down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hmmm. You're right. It doesn't. Only for dug-in does the kill chance change. I used a wall between the tanks to get hull down, still no change in kill chance. It only does it when dug-in (or when the JPzIV is above the Sherm, but that's apparently due to the armor slope since it gives it as 'Low' whether it's hull down or not). - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: When the targetting says "Kill: OK" does that take onto account that part of the vehicle is not visible? I mean, the vehicle is hull down, and only the heavily armed turret showing, but the targetting says kill: OK because it thinks overall the target area is a good kill chance, just not the turret part, ignoring the fact that only the turret part is actually exposed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, it does. Fire up the editor and go into Parameters; allow the defender to dig in. Take a 75mm armed Sherman. Place it 300m from a JagdPanzer IV. It should give a kill odds as 'OK'. Now click the JPzIV and hit the 'd' key for Dig-in. Kill odds drop to 'Low'. - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How many tungsten rounds and AP did your Hellcats have?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Four. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1 (quoting Fionn): The AI evaluates 3 things when deciding whether to fire an AP or Tungsten round. 1. Chance of hitting the enemy target. 2. Chance of an AP round penetrating said target. 3. Number of Tungsten rounds left. So, if the chance of hitting the target is LOW then Tungsten won't be used unless there is literally no APCBC left.If an AP round has a good chance of hitting and killing the target then AP will be used and Tungsten saved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for relaying the info, John. And to Fionn for the info. But I still believe something is askew. I think the problem is the 76mm gun is seen as a real threat to killing a Panther frontally with AP (e.g. it get's an 'OK' rating for a kill). I ran some more tests last night. I faced off 8 hulldown Panthers vs. 8 Hellcats armed only with AP. No Tungsten, no HE, no smoke, just AP. I ran the test through 10 times to try to get a bit closer to a statistically valid sample. I only counted turret hits, and ignored any upper hull hits to try to see what the odds were for an AP shell from an American 76 gun to penetrate the turret of a Panther G late. All tanks are Elite. Panthers are hull down and slightly lower than the Hellcats (I was trying to limit the number of upper hull hits; it worked to some degree). Distance is 500m. * There were 471 hits on the Panther's turret that did no damage. * 34 hits penetrated the Panther's turret. * 5 hits penetrated at a weak point. * 32 hits took out the gun, causing the crew to abandon the Panther. My conclusion? The odds of an American 76mm gun firing AP rounds penetrating the Panther's turret at 500m is the same as the odds of getting a gun hit. Incidentally, a couple of the turret penetrations were, indeed, from the first shot fired. But overall the odds of a kill are still quite low. If you want to try yourself, here's the setup I used: http://users.erols.com/chare/cm/Hellcat-vs-Panther_2.zip It seems to me that with such low odds of success, the Panther should not show up as an 'OK' kill against a 76m American gun. I think if this was changed to either 'Low' or 'Rare', this would solve everyone's problems they have with the use of Tungsten rounds. After all, a tank who shows a 'Low' or 'Rare' chance of killing an enemy tank is much more likely to use Tungsten to get the job done (as I showed in my tests vs the KTs and others have experienced through gameplay). - Chris

Hmmm. Tried switching the Panthers to King Tigers. And guess what type of round the Hellcats used at 500m? Yup. Tungsten. 7 of the 8 Hellkitties chose Tungsten as their First Shot against the KTs. No AP. No bracketing. Just hell-bent on killing those KTs. BTW, the hulldown KTs shows up as a 'Low' chance of a kill vs the Tungsten-laden Hellcats. It seems to me the 'OK' designation that a Hellcat (or Sherman 76) receives against the Panther is what might be preventing the use of Tungsten rounds. If the tank thinks AP will do (even when it likely won't), it's not going to waste its valuable Tungsten rounds. - Chris

There are two PantherA models on Page 2 of the Winter German mods under the 3rd party mods section: CMHQ You can use one for the Panther A and the other for Panther G late if you like (you'll have to rename the BMP files, though). Other than that, I haven't seen any others. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-17-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>tungsten is never used as a first round. according to BTS, the gunner will first try to "aim" with a regular AP round before he uses the precious tungsten round. Therefore, tungsten rounds are not supposed to be used as the first round.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep. That was my understanding as well. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>we should send each other our ranges<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ok. Test setup for anyone interested: http://users.erols.com/chare/cm/Hellcat-vs-Panther.zip - Chris

Slapdragon, you can go into the Parameters section of the editor and choose to allow tanks to dig in. And then dig in the Pathers so they don't move around. Makes for a much easier test. Playing with this again, 8 Hellcats w/ 4 Tungsten each vs 8 dug-in Panthers with no ammo at 500m, I essentailly get the same results I got with the last one. I'm using CM 1.05 * 35 turret hits, all shells break up, no ricochets (hmmm interesting). * 22 upper hull hits, all ricochets. * 4 guns hits that (apparently) cause tank abandonment. * 2 turret penetrations that eliminates the tanks. * 2 turret penetrations that cause (apparently) no damage. * 1 turret penetration at weak point that causes (apparently) no damage. * 1 tank abandonment for unknown reasons (previous turret penetration seemed too far removed from abandonment, but it *may* have caused it; I dunno). * last tank abandoned when Axis surrenders on turn 7. No tungsten rounds were ever used by the Hellcats (each had 4 rounds). There were 2 runs of 7 consecutive hits by AP without a miss, penetration, or smoke interfering. There was 1 run of 5 consecutive hits, 2 runs of 4, and 2 runs of 3 consecutive AP hits without any changes. The longest run of uninterrupted upper hull consecutive hits was 3; there was only one of these. The longest run of uninterrupted turret consecutive hits was 2; there were a number of these. Panther 1 experienced a few misses from the Hellcat and put off lots of smoke. It was killed on turn 5 by an AP turret penetration, the first (and only) shell that the Hellcat fired and hit with. Panther 2's gun was hit on the 1st turn, and abandoned shortly thereafter. Panther 3 suffered a total of 10 turret hits and 9 upper hull ricochets before losing its gun on turn 3 and abandoning. Panther 4 took 3 turret hits and 2 upper hull ricochets. It abandoned on the 1st turn because of a gun hit. Panther 5 suffered through a lot of smoke the first few turns, 2 turret hits on turn 4, and a turret penetration on turn 5 that eliminated the tank. Panther 6 suffered through smoke early on, but eventually received 6 turret hits and 6 upper hull ricochets. This tank did receive a turret penetration on turn 6 after 5 consecutive hits, but still kept going. It was abandoned when the AI surrendered. Panther 7 took 4 turret hits and 2 upper hull ricochets. It also had a turret penetration at weak point. After receiving a gun hit, it abandoned on turn 2. Panther 8 had 2 upper hull ricochets and 5 turret hits before taking a turret penetration. It then continued on for another full turn receiving 3 turret hits and 1 upper hull ricochet before popping smoke and hiding throughout the rest of the turn. I'm not sure why this one abandoned at the beginning of turn 4. At 500m you can get through the Panther's turret armor with 76mm AP, but it seems a bit rare to me. In addition, I've never had AP penetrate in any of my tests at 800m even though the chances are given as 'OK'. My previous test results: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/010410.html <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As the US player I have killed numerous Panthers with FT penetrations<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you sure we're playing the same game, John? - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-17-2000).]

Bullethead: very interesting stuff. I did a bit of testing myself and it looked to me like the overall patterns are similar between different size rounds as well as different types. Though I didn't try to measure them. I took 10 German 81mm mortar FOs and 10 210mm gun FOs and aimed all of them at the same spot (no TRP, and both in and out of LOS). It looked to me like, in total, both the 210mm and 81mm mortars covered the same area. The outer boundaries (farthest distance from the target) where shells fell seemed to be the same for both weapon types. Both seemed to have the same "tightness" of shell dispersal when firing at a target within LOS and also the same "looseness" when fired out of LOS. I did the same with the 210 and 75mm and it looks like similar results. Although I would actually give the edge to the 210mm rounds for their accuracy on target (I only did this one within LOS). BTW, I do like the East-West oval pattern that that many rounds creates around a target area. The one thing that didn't seem to matter was the experience level of the FO. Conscript, Regular, and Elite all produce the same size pattern. This was tested out of LOS with each target area getting 10 FOs a piece. Again, no TRPs were used. BTW, does CM have it correct when you're unable to adjust fire for targets out of LOS? That came as a shock in a game when I discovered I wasn't able to simply adjust fire on a target out of LOS, and instead had to start a new area fire countdown. - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>time on target is different for each battle<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nope. Each FO has a different ETA. Take 6 conscript 170mm German FOs. Have them fire at a spot they can't see. Don't use a TRP. Here are the times it took each FO to begin firing. Remember there's nothing at all different about these FOs, and they're all exactly the same and participating in the same battle. 1st FO begins firing at 9:48 2nd FO 11:24 3rd FO 11:46 4th FO 12:27 5th FO 12:44 6th FO 13:08 The first FO actually *finished* shooting off all his rounds before the 6th one even began firing. It varies from FO to FO not from battle to battle. And the less experienced the FO, the more variability in ETA you get. Of course, if you use a TRP, then the numbers you'll see for the ETA are *always* the same from FO to FO. If I had used a TRP in the test above, all of the FOs would have begun firing at exactly 2:58 (well, the clock would show it is in turn 3, but it takes 2 minutes and 58 seconds to get the 'firing' message). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>in no way do I think that regulars should be as fast as vets, or cracks faster than elites.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They're not. The numbers I generated are *NOT* averages; I only tested each once. What you're seeing are outliers, not hard consistent data. I only did the tests to get a rough idea of when to expect arty to arrive. And the numbers in my charts are indeed very rough. In order to get a more accurate view of how long it takes (say) a conscript 170mm FO to fire at a target he can't see, you'd have to run dozens of tests to get the overall mean time it takes to begin firing and then do a standard deviation to see how far off the ETA for each FO can be. That's the only way to get reasonably accurate ETA numbers. I didn't do this because it would be one Hell of a lot of work and I'm just not that bored. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-16-2000).]

There's a lot of variability in Arty fire when you don't use TRPs (target reference points), particularly for conscript FOs. And it gets even worse when you're firing at something out of LOS. Being in C&C doesn't affect FOs, however. I did some testing and compiled the info in some charts: http://users.erols.com/chare/cm/ They're in Works format (sorry, it's all I have). If you need xls format, I converted them, but they don't print as well. http://users.erols.com/chare/cm/cm_xls.zip - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-15-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have had the oposite experience concerning Panthers as Sherman 76mm in my games regurly kill Panther frontaly at 500 - 750ms with front turret penetrations using APCBC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Using CM 1.05 I tried a 16 tank shooting gallery (8 on each side; Panthers were hull down (dug-in)). At 500m, the AP shell did actually get through. But barely. The *vast* majority of shots were ricochets. And half the kills were from hits at weak point. Tungsten rounds were never used. Did the same at 800m. 105 ricochets, no AP penetrations at all. 5 abandoned after their guns were hit. 2 died from Tungsten. 1 abandoned after the AI surrendered on turn 7. It took 4 turns and more than 20 AP shells before one of the Easy 8's used it's Tungsten (this tank had 7 AP left when it decided to switch to Tung). The other that used Tungsten burned through its *entire* allotment of AP (31 rounds) before it started using Tungsten on turn 5. These were Elite tanks and didn't miss much. Thankfully the Panthers had no ammo and weren't shooting back. I also tried seeing how far out CM would give an 'OK' message for a Sherman 76 Easy 8 armed only with AP trying to kill a hull down Panther. It's 920m. Unfortunately, the 76 doesn't seem to have a prayer of actually killing the tank at that distance using only AP. So I don't understand why it's shown as having an 'OK' chance of killing the Panther. IMHO, it should be either Rare or None. If you give the Easy 8 back its Tungsten rounds, the 'OK' kill message extends out much further (over 2000m). BTW, the reason I put the Panthers hull down is because of the weaker lower hull armor (60@55). The 76's AP *can* readily penetrate this plate. But I'm still curious as to why CM would classify the kill odds as 'OK' on a hull down Panther when there's no real chance of actually doing it. I do believe there's something wrong here. - Chris

*bump* on the use of Tungsten rounds. - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Didn't test to see if the TDs will opt to use the Tungsten more readily than regular Sherman 76's, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just tested. Nope. At 800m Hellcats reported the hull down (dug-in) Panthers as 'OK' kills. 3 of the 4 Hellkitties bounced 10~20 rounds each off the Panther's frontal armor (turret and upper hull only) without penetrating (a few gun hits) before the Panther crews abandoned their tanks. The 4th Panther hung in through all 31 AP rounds from the Hellcat. Only after it had completely burned through all its AP shot did the Hellcat use its Tungsten rounds to finally kill the Panther. Seems the 'OK' kill message means don't *ever* use your Tungsten rounds. The Hellcats had 4 Tung rounds each, BTW. - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In each case, the German tanks dominated up until around the 500 yard range. After that, the U.S. tanks began to have the upper hand, and at 300 yards seemed to clearly have the upper hand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well. I did a bit of my own with Easy-8's vs. Panthers. Even though the LOS tool shows E8's have an "OK" chance of killing the Panther out to atleast 1000m, the only way it seems to kill these beasts with the 76 are if you get a hit on the lower hull. The upper hull and turret are essentially invulnerable to the 76 down to about 300m. At 300m, some rounds get through the turret armor (but others don't). Never did get through the upper hull even at 300m. Shermans also still show a great reluctance to use Tungsten rounds. Seems like if the chance of penetrating is OK or better, it won't use the Tungsten at all, even after multiple ricochets. So maybe those Jacksons *are* important after all. Didn't test to see if the TDs will opt to use the Tungsten more readily than regular Sherman 76's, though. - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In one pbem game this week, during the first two minutes, 3 of my Shermans bounce 11 shells off a Hetzer while the latter is picking off all three. Starting a scenario three tanks down is not conducive to victory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Isn't that the Hetzer just being the Hetzer? 60mm or armor at 60 degrees is nothing to sneeze at. Your 75's and 76's are gonna have a tough time getting through that armor unless they have Tungsten rounds. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have no beef against my opponents, but I am starting to think that somebody up there doesn't like me ... I am been stomped into the ground in every one of my pbem games.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Care for a PBEM, Henri? - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Any objection to my copying that chart and putting it on my web site.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Fionn requested a copy and said he might stick it on CMHQ, so you'd have to ask him. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>a couple of Panthers can be death to take out with just 76 guns. ... The 76 rule isn't too bad if you choose the British with the Fireflies, but I would probably want to include Sherman Jumboes and Jacksons in the mix for the U.S.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, but the 76 guns (particularly TDs) typically have tungsten rounds, which are murderous to German armor. The trick is getting them to use the damn rounds! And certainly Jacksons would make for a more even match tank vs. tank, but as you mentioned, price does play a role. 3+ Jacksons for 2 Panthers. Though for the Germans to be outnumbered wouldn't be too far off the mark! You may have just been more lucky than me at Panthers vs. Jumbos. A Panther killing a Jumbo is given a 'Rare' chance of frontal penetration, even at 100m. And I don't recall the last time I saw it happen. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is interesting that the rule was promulgated by someone (Fionn) who has a stated preference for playing the axis side. (Sure, I can say that now that Fionn is banned - I did post my E-mail though)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep, it's all a conspiracy by Germano-philes! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Equal points of E8s and Panthers I have not tried yet, but I am betting the E8s get slaughtered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I don't think there's much difference (atleast as far as CM is concerned) between the Sherman-76 and Easy-8. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for the 75 rule, I think I would want to see some TDs in the mix. Otherwise, I would choose Germans every time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As Graaf Spee pointed out, the faster Allied turret speed definitely plays a role here. But of course, you can select whatever units you want to play with. It's between you and your opponent. If you tell them you'd rather play without any restrictions on forces, I'm sure most folks will be more than happy to oblige. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just putting my $.02 in before these become the defacto standards for QBs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well I *hope* that these rules of thumb don't become some sort of unavoidable "standard" for QBs. It's just a different way of playing the game to throw in some variety; it isn't something that BTS is coding into the game. I honestly doubt you'll have much trouble finding folks who will be happy to PBEM without any of the restrictions listed, if that's what you prefer. I'm open to most anything myself. I don't even have much of a preference for sides. - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The 75 rule will not allow an American player to follow historical American armored doctrine of using tanks to engage infantry and hard points and tank destroyers against tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. The Short-75 and Panther-76 are only concerned with game play balance. They allow you to choose 'lesser' tanks without worrying as much about what uber-armor your opponent might go with. Historical accuracy regarding doctrine as well as weapon scarcity are even more complicated problems to try to PBEM with. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>BTW, the Priest is an excellent tank destroyer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's the reason I like the Churchill VIII. It's 95mm gun really destroys infantry and in a pinch, its handful of hollow core charges can eliminate the occasional enemy AFV. I think that it's one of the better Panther killers because it has a low muzzle velocity, which gives the round more arc, reducing the angle on the Panther's frontal armor, unlike a high velocity round whose trajectory is much flatter. - Chris

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lower armor rateing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What I mean is it's lower than 100%. Yes, I know there are other tanks that have lower armor quality ratings, but the JagdPanzer IV's lower armor quality allows the 76/793 AP shell to penetrate; if it were 100% armor quality, it would be real close; leaning towards not penetrating (according to the charts I have for CM). PzIV/70(V)'s armor is also 90% quality, but the armor is still thick enough to stop the shell from this gun in CM. This is what I was referring to. Sorry, I should have clarified. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-12-2000).]

[snip] Just for future reference: *NEVER* put carriage returns in the middle of an HTML table (i.e. between the commands) that you want to post to a UBB board. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-12-2000).]

<TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="2"><TR><TH COLSPAN="2"><BIG><BIG>Panther-76 Rule</BIG></BIG></TH></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="009900"><BIG>American</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>M5A1 Stuart</TD><TD>37/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4 Crocodile</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4(105)</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1(76)w</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1(76)w+</TD><TD >76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A2 (French)</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(105)</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(75)w</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(75)w+ </TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w Easy 8</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w+</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w+ Easy 8</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M7 Priest</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M7A1 Priest</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M8 HMC</TD><TD>75/381</TD></TR><TR><TD>M10 TD</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M18 Hellcat</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>M24 Chaffee</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>M4A3E2 Jumbo</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3E2(76) Jumbo</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>M26 Pershing</TD><TD>90/854</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>T26E4 Super Pershing</TD><TD>90/976</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M36 Jackson</TD><TD>90/810</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M36B1 Jackson</TD><TD>90/810</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="AA0000"><BIG>British</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>Stuart V</TD><TD>37/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman II</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman IIA</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman IIC Firefly</TD><TD>76/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman III</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman V</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman VC Firefly</TD><TD>76/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Badger (Canadian)</TD><TD>--</TD></TR><TR><TD>Centaur IV</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell IV</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VI</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VII</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VIII</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Challenger</TD><TD>76/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VI</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VII</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill Crocodile</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VIII</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Comet</TD><TD>76/792</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wolverine</TD><TD>76/793</TD></TR><TR><TD>Achilles</TD><TD>76/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Archer</TD><TD>76/884 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Sexton</TD><TD>88/610</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill AVRE</TD><TD>290/48</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>none</TD><TD>--</TD><TD>--</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="999999"><BIG>German</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>H39 Hotchkiss</TD><TD>37/705</TD></TR><TR><TD>Lynx (Pz IIL)</TD><TD>20/780</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVG</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVH</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVJ</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherA</TD><TD>75/925</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherG</TD><TD>75/925</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherG late</TD><TD>75/925</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wespe</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>Marder II</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Ostwind</TD><TD>37/820</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wirbelwind</TD><TD>20/780</TD></TR><TR><TD>Hummel</TD><TD>150/460</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanzer IV</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanzer IV skirt</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Flammpanzer</TD><TD>--</TD></TR><TR><TD>Hetzer 38t</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Marder III late</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuH42</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuH42 late</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IIIG</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IIIG late</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IV</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>Tiger</TD><TD>88/773</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Tiger late</TD><TD>88/773</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>King Tiger Porsche</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>King Tiger</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>Nashorn</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>PanzerIV/70(V)</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdTiger</TD> <TD>128/920</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanther</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR></TABLE></TD></TR></TABLE> The Panther-76 rule is an adaptation of the Short-75 rule but allows the use of the German Panther tanks and the allied tanks that carry 76mm guns. It still excludes the heavies (King Tiger and Pershings), but gives a wider range of armor choices. Because the Tiger's armor is somewhat vulnerable to the 76mm gun's AP shot, you may want to allow the German player to have this tank. However, starting with version 1.05, BTS has changed the frontal turret armor of the Tiger. Thickness varies across the turret front with some parts being as much as 200mm thick. The PanzerIV/70(V) (an up-armored JagdPanzer IV) is not automatically included as it's upper frontal armor is not vulnerable to 76/793 AP, even with its lower (90%) armor quality rating. However, it *can* be penetrated by the 17pdr (76/884) gun using AP shot. The German player may be allowed to select this tank if facing British, Canadian, or Polish forces, all of whom have access to the 17pdr gun (the American and French forces don't have the 17 pdr). Despite all the so-called "rules" and limitations listed here, it's still up to PBEM opponents to choose what type of battle they wish to play. These guidelines can be either helpful or just irritating. Whatever rules you choose to go by, just be sure your opponents agrees with them. Communication is key to safe and happy PBEMing. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-12-2000).]

Here's my list of what the Short-75 rule is: <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="2"><TR><TH COLSPAN="2"><BIG><BIG>Short-75 Rule</BIG></BIG></TH></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="009900"><BIG>American</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>M5A1 Stuart</TD><TD>37/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4 Crocodile</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4(105)</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A2 (French)</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(105)</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(75)w</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>M7 Priest</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M7A1 Priest</TD><TD>105/473</TD></TR><TR><TD>M8 HMC</TD><TD>75/381</TD></TR><TR><TD>M24 Chaffee</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(75)w+</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1(76)w</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gu n</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A1(76)w+</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w Easy 8</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w+</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3(76)w+ Easy 8</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3E2 Jumbo</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>M4A3E2(76) Jumbo</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M26 Pershing</TD><TD>90/854</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>T26E4 Super Pershing</TD><TD>90/976</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>M10 TD</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M18 Hellcat</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M36 Jackson</TD><TD>90/810</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>M36B1 Jackson</TD><TD>90/810</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="AA0000"><BIG>British</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>Stuart V</TD><TD>37/884</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman II</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman III</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman V</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Badger (Canadian)</TD><TD>--</TD></TR><TR><TD>Centaur IV</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell IV</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VI</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VII</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Cromwell VIII</TD><TD>95/503</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VI</TD><TD>75/619</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill AVRE</TD><TD>290/48</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>Sherman IIA</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman IIC Firefly</TD><TD>76/884</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sherman VC Firefly</TD><TD>76/884</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Challenger</TD><TD>76/884</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VII</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill Crocodile</TD><TD>75/619</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Churchill VIII</TD><TD>95/503</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Comet</TD><TD>76/792</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wolverine</TD><TD>76/793</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Achilles</TD><TD>76/884 </TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Archer</TD><TD>76/884</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sexton</TD><TD>88/610</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TH COLSPAN="2" BGCOLOR="999999"><BIG>German</BIG></TH></TR><TR><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Included</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH></TR><TR><TD>H39 Hotchkiss</TD><TD>37/705</TD></TR><TR><TD>Lynx (Pz IIL)</TD><TD>20/780</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVG</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVH</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Panzer IVJ</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wespe</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>Marder II</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>Ostwind</TD><TD>37/820</TD></TR><TR><TD>Wirbelwind</TD><TD>20/780</TD></TR><TR><TD>Hummel</TD><TD>150/460</TD></TR><TR><TD>Marder III late</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuH42</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuH42 late</TD><TD>105/496</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IIIG</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IIIG late</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR><TR><TD>StuG IV</TD><TD>75/790</TD></TR></TABLE></TD><TD VALIGN=TOP><CENTER><U>Excluded</U></CENTER> <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2" CELLSPACING="0"><TR><TH>Tank</TH><TH>Gun</TH><TH>Reason</TH></TR><TR><TD>Tiger</TD><TD>88/773</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>Tiger late</TD><TD>88/773</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>King Tiger Porsche</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>King Tiger</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherA</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherG</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>PantherG late</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanzer IV</TD><TD>75/790</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanzer IV skirt</TD><TD>75/790</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Nashorn</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>gun</TD></TR><TR><TD>PanzerIV/70(V)</TD><TD>75/925</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdTiger</TD> <TD>128/920</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>JagdPanther</TD><TD>88/1018</TD><TD>both</TD></TR><TR><TD>Flammpanzer</TD><TD>--</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR><TR><TD>Hetzer 38t</TD><TD>75/790</TD><TD>armor</TD></TR></TABLE></TD></TR></TABLE> The Short-75 rule is an attempt to allow PBEM opponents to limit armor purchases to medium tanks, rather than have every single PBEM battle turn into an engagement between highly armored super tanks carrying 88 and 90mm guns. This list spells out specifically what is meant by 'Short-75'. You can add to or subtract from this list as you (and your opponent) see fit. Please understand that this "rule" isn't really a rule at all, it's just an agreement between opposing players to limit their armor purchases in quick battles to try to get away from playing the umpteenth King Tiger vs. Pershing battle. Anti-tank guns are not excluded from this list because, although deadly to tanks, they are highly vulnerable to shelling and infantry attack. Tank destroyers (though thinly armored) were excluded because of their large amount of AP rounds, their mobility, and their relative invulnerability to infantry. You can certainly add these tanks back in if you want, but the German player may be especially vulnerable to the fast tank destroyers (Hellcat and Jackson in particular) which are not only fast vehicles, but also have very fast turrets. The reasoning behind including some tanks with larger caliber weapons such as the 95, 105, and 150mm guns is they do not fire AP rounds, and carry a very limited number of hollow core © shells with which to kill enemy tanks. They're mostly just infantry killers and are themselves very susceptible to AP rounds. But feel free to exclude them if you wish. [edit: fixing the table] You know, that's one Hell of a lot of work for what is just a simple rule of thumb. - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 09-12-2000).]