Simon Fox

Really tero that is a load of bollocks. Now you're trotting out the completely ahistorical stereotype of the WW1 ubergerman development of infantry tactics (Stosstruppe) vs blundering Brit 'linear tactics'. You've read Timothy Harrison-Place's PhD and now you're a world expert, why is that not suprising, hehe.

All this talk of snow, drizzle and freezing rain reminds me that I have to turn the sprinklers on when I get home tonight. How I envy you blokes having nature do the job for you when I have to leave the barbeque and tediously amble across the patio to turn on the retic. What a waste of 30 secs of an autumn evening. Thank goodness I don't have to put my tinnie down otherwise it would be all but unbearable. Some individuals have been remarkably tardy. Geier also appears to be snowed in or under or somefink. How a 15 turn game can last 2 months is mystifying. Bastables has no such excuse, though it is hardly suprising that a Kiwi git should continue to struggle with the 'complexities' of the PBEM process. Must of contracted some tropical brainfever in Timor rendering him even more dullwitted than usual.

Well irrespective of the actual tank numbers I agree with Jason's overall assessment of Epsom. Anyway these armour odds are pretty irrelevant, we're talking bocage here if only for the initial phase, if anything the British pushed too much armour in and ended up with a great bit traffic jam. The 4th Armoured Bde's task for the operation was rear/flank security and mopping up in the initial phase. The appearance of II SS Pz Corps on the western side of the salient which the British were aware of prior to it's employment. The arrival of elements of 2nd Pz there (it's panther Abt). Arrival of elements of 1st SS Pz on the eastern flank (Kampfgruppe). Pz Lehr sitting on the Western side about to be releived by 276 Inf. Constraints of the terrain within the salient itself (bocage) and the narrowness of the salient which restricted transport and exposed it to the powerful artillery which these German formations could muster including just about every Werfer unit in Normandy. The difficulties of providing artillery support to units at the apex of the salient for these reasons. The total unsuitability of a British armoured division for holding ground. The insufficient Odon bridges. The exposed nature of 112. In these circumstances closing down Epsom seems prudent rather than timid. This is validated by the walloping administered to subsequent German counterattacks. Neither the 4th nor 8th armoured Bdes could be said to be at full strength for Epsom. Both had already been involved in action since D-day or just after. The 4th Armoured especially heavily. I think it would be fair to see Martlet as part of Epsom, they can hardly be seen as two distinct thrusts at the 12th SS. Launched on the 25th June most seem to consider Martlet the preliminary phase of Epsom which commenced 26th June. 49th infantry division were supported by 8th armoured Bde in this endeavour. Fontenay was 'cleared' by 26th and Rauray by 27th/28th. I would have thought this attack fell upon the right flank of Pz Lehr and the left of 12th SS. The 8th Armd Bde captured a Tiger in Fontenay and another in Rauray as well as reporting a number operating on their front in addition to Panthers and SP guns indicating that it is likely that elements of 101 SS Pz Abt. was operating against Epsom/Martlet from the 26th on. According to Zetterling 12th SS tank strength on 26th of June was 60 Pz IV and 37 Panthers with a further 12 PzIV and 27 Panthers requiring minor repairs only. I don't see much point in a numbers game considering the British couldn't possibly hope to apply them over such a limited frontage. However, the figures given by redwolf seem rather excessive "15 battalions" of Brit tanks? also I fancy the Germans had a fair bit more arty than 36. As Jason has correctly pointed out the bulk of Epsom was borne by the 15th Scottish and the 11th Armd Divs both fighting their first battle. If nature had not intervened and the Op had been launched on 22nd June with better preparation the result may have been a little different. Sources: Delaforce "Black Rat and Red Fox", "The Polar Bears" Zetterling ""Normandy 1944, German Military Organization, Combat Power and Organizational Effectiveness" amongst others

Well someone asked if there were any bayonet charges in WW2 and I gave 6 examples. I can fink of another 2 large scale ones off the top of me head, by the RM Commandos as part of the commando brigade and 2/13th battalion at Tobruk, plus a whole host of them in the Pacific (not including the Japanese).

Or to be more accurate: Boris, units ordered to "area fire" will sometimes automatically stop firing when friendly troops enter the "area".

Let's face it Andreas is understandably reticent about acknowledging his countrymen's widely documented aversion to cold steel. "The Tommy's method of using the long steel blade on the end of his gun has been found decidedly nasty, from the German standpoint. But let the Germans see that a hand-to-hand struggle with the bayonet is imminent, and up go their hands, and cries of 'Kamerad,' 'Kamerad,' resound, the allies have found." http://call.army.mil/products/newsltrs/2-88/chpt1.htm http://www.mishalov.com/Porteous.html http://members.ozemail.com.au/~vcweb/winners/edmondson.htm http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/crete/day8.htm http://www.ean.co.uk/Bygones/History/Article/WW2/John_Green_MBE/html/body_battle_of_ornito.htm "COLE, ROBERT G. Rank and organization: Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. Army, 101st Airborne Division. Place and date: Near Carentan, France, 11 June 1944. Entered service at: San Antonio, Tex. Birth: Fort Sam Houston, Tex. G.O. No.: 79, 4 October 1944. Citation: For gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty on 11 June 1944, in France. Lt. Col. Cole was personally leading his battalion in forcing the last 4 bridges on the road to Carentan when his entire unit was suddenly pinned to the ground by intense and withering enemy rifle, machinegun, mortar, and artillery fire placed upon them from well-prepared and heavily fortified positions within 150 yards of the foremost elements. After the devastating and unceasing enemy fire had for over 1 hour prevented any move and inflicted numerous casualties, Lt. Col. Cole, observing this almost hopeless situation, courageously issued orders to assault the enemy positions with fixed bayonets. With utter disregard for his own safety and completely ignoring the enemy fire, he rose to his feet in front of his battalion and with drawn pistol shouted to his men to follow him in the assault. Catching up a fallen man's rifle and bayonet, he charged on and led the remnants of his battalion across the bullet-swept open ground and into the enemy position. His heroic and valiant action in so inspiring his men resulted in the complete establishment of our bridgehead across the Douve River. The cool fearlessness, personal bravery, and outstanding leadership displayed by Lt. Col. Cole reflect great credit upon himself and are worthy of the highest praise in the military service."

Well they'd been halted, but not by the Germans

Pandering to the seppos does not constitute multiculturalism. Another antiAustralianism. Mace, help me out here, even the Top Sheila can pretend better than this drongo.

Thank goodness Aussies can now disclaim this pretender. Real Aussies do not use euphemisms nor do they spell like that.

Next!

I have noted the use of the word "lame" in the past to descibe the quality, or lack of it, in a thread title. In this case to do so would be an insult to the capabilities of the handicapped. For are not the lame endowed with at least a rudimentary capability to ambulate. No, this one is entirely moribund, bereft of originality, devoid of a single redeeming feature. The only point of possible interest is that if the author is not 'Sleepy' which one of Snow White's little friends is he.

To be fair my impression is that Jary is principally talking about the firepower superiority of the MG42 rather than SMGs. Also the apparent profusion of German medium mortars. After all he relates a tale of an FJ emptying his SMG at him from about 20m away and being unscathed I think it would be fair to say that when operating in close terrain, urban areas or at night the Brits would equip themselves with a greater proportion of SMGs than seen in the standard CMBO Brit infantry

Well he could always fight you and get sent some historical scenario based on a massacre with you as the massacrer. Then when he catches you out nothing more would be heard from you. But then that would be a typical Kiwi underarmed, I mean handed, tactic.

Why I do beleive you're correct, Kylie does sound like a cat being strangled.

Quick, wasn't someone set a task to discover a funny post by Shaw. That may be an eternal quest but here at least he makes an effort, however pitiful it may be.

Gee Dan, surely you don't think the fact the question has been answered is gonna make any difference.

Really Mace you know you only won because all those other threads got tangled up with each other and fell over.

Really Peng (I thought you didn't exist anymore) don't be discomforted by a little 'edginess'. Things can't be all bonhomie and 'hale fellow well-met' all the time. I'm sure Croda and I can manage to keep things simmering along quite nicely without them boiling over. Well, I'm sure I can at least. This thread was excuruciatingly dull anyway.

It is. Well I suppose you can cast yourself in the innocent victim guise if you wish. I'm glad to be of assistance.

Well if you insist on stirring up some barbarian it's hardly suprising if they don't adhere to your rules of engagment is it?

You can rest assured that I do Croda. Otherwise I'd be absolutely livid with misplaced indignation at this very moment. "I suppose," said Suitcase, "you know you are three months late arriving for your call up?" "I'll make up for it sir, I'll fight nights as well!" (Adolf Hitler: My Part in his Downfall)

Oh I don't think so, methinks Croda is ticked off at ICS now. Looks like Croda loves to poke the wild animals with sticks but when they turn around and wack him back he can't take it. I take it that once you've finished 'baiting this bear' the next drooling cretin who wanders in will be the recipient of the same pack mentality accompanied by the usual 'heroic' mutual backslapping. "Major Chater-Jack: Milligan, we've just crossed the border into Tunisia. Milligan: Fine, sir, I'll carve a statue at once."

Oh, yes, I'm absolutely seething.

I can't beleive you legitimised another dopey LGMB idea by giving it even a semi-serious answer. I too was thinking of suggesting that a "Lord General MB Memorial" award be given. But it had nothing to do with grogs.

What's the point of having a bit of fun if even the most credulous and least discerning are instantly in the know courtesy of a profusion of smilies. If you were momentarily taken in and had to read it again to be sure then that makes it more amusing. I thought it was quite good Capt. please don't even consider using smilies next time.