L4Pilot

Here's some comments I wrote up without having read any of the other brittle infantry threads, so they are "independent" as much as any can be. If they reinforce what is being said, well, so be it. And if they go against current sentiment, well at least they provide grist for the grog-mill. Thoughts on Infantry Behavior in CMBB A note: all the effects I'm referring to here have been observed with "medium" quality troops: regular, veteran and green, but principally regular. I'm not referring to conscripts here Propensity to break and rout Troops break and rout too soon. If a unit is taking fire, they should become cautious. With lots of fire they should be pinned or panic. And stay that way. For a long time. My guess is that MOST units are cautious, pinned, or panicked when they are under fire - means you move slower, fire less and respond slower to orders. But in CMBB units move quickly from cautious and pinned to broken and routed. Sometimes with not much fire for very long. In one game I'm playing over 50% of an assault force (regular quality, in command, with heavy support) routed trying to cross 60 m of ground. Leaving foxholes I'm concerned with the speed with which troops will abandon improved positions. My conception of the foxholes presented in CMBB is of a depression deep enough to shield the occupants from small arms fire and shrapnel. If you are firing, you will be slightly exposed to both of the above. If not, then you will be almost impervious. So unless an HE shell actually lands in the foxhole, or explodes over it, the troops inside are going to be ok other than concussion effects. The ONLY safe place to be when HE is going off in a foxhole. Everybody knows that except conscripts. In CMBB, regular troops run away into open terrain, routed when 1 shell goes off nearby. Would YOU move from where you can't get hurt to someplace you can get hurt? I can understand being pinned or panicked IN the foxhole with a lot of HE nearby, but troops leave the protection of emplacements. That's not realistic in my opinion. To put it another way, why don't half-track crews run for it when lots of rifle squads are shooting at them and lots of HE going off nearby? Because inside is safer. Same thing with a foxhole. I think the effect seen in CMBB should be that if a unit reaches Pinned status, they should be secure in a foxhole except from very nearby direct fire and direct hits by high arc HE (like mortars and grenades). Efficacy of withdraw order I've always thought of a Withdraw order as a "Get us out of here, Sarge!" order. Troops that might not obey an order to advance, will gladly obey an order to withdraw if it gets them out of a bad situation. If anything, their morale should IMPROVE, because they are getting out of a situation where they knew or thought they knew, they were going to die, Certainly when a withdraw order is given, some confusion and disorganization is going to be generated with that unit for a time. But with the too quick progression from Panic to Broken to Rout, withdrawing troops invariably rout. IMO, troops given a withdraw order should go no further than Panic (not to broken or routed) status until they reach the destination of the withdraw order. And troops of all morale levels (or maybe all but routed) should accept a withdraw order. Which might fix the Dance of Death problem. If they're still taking significant fire when they get to the assigned "rally point" (the destination of the withdraw order), that's a different story. Inappropriately revealing themselves (No snickers please) I've had infantry pop up from hiding when a Brummbar entered their covered fire arc. They didn't shoot at the Brummbar, of course, they knew they couldn't hurt it. Of course they got the bejeezus pounded out of them. What were they doing? Waving? If they are smart enough to know not to shoot at something they can't damage, they should know not to stop hiding. Fanaticism From accounts from BOTH sides, the individual Russian soldier was very brave. Maybe his leaders were not so good, but the soldier was frequently very brave (and afraid of the NKVD). I read this more from German reports than Russian ones. Yet in the games I'm playing regardless of year, or type of battle, I'm seeing more than 50% of the Russian troops (and I don't mean conscripts) Break and Rout! Where's the fanatic, tenacious defense and superhuman bravery I've heard so much about? CMBB shows the difference in optics, difference in training, why not the difference in bravery? What I'm learning Every game is a teaching tool. I was looking forward to CM BB to learn about a theater I am mostly unfamiliar with, done by a game company I respect and that has more familiarity with the subject than I do. With CMBB, the overall impressions I have are that significant numbers, frequently a majority, of troops on both sides break and rout. Soldiers of all experience levels frequently lave foxholes when exposed to small arms fire and nearby HE. Russian soldiers are not tenacious on defense. That's not what my previous impressions of the Eastern Front were, except occasionally in the earliest days of Barbarossa. Now I'm going for MY foxhole, and no amount of small arms fire or nearby HE is going to make me come out.

It was so hot...the trees were chasing the mine-dogs. Both of these sugestions sound reasonable. Though with the Mid-Day Summer QB, was it related to zone? I could see how the ground might be damp, even on a hot summer day in the northern or Finnish terrain zones. [ October 13, 2002, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: L4Pilot ]

Try Tournament House.

It's here in Santa Monica, CA!! Had to work until past six, so skimmed the manual between customers. Going to install it now (with fingers crossed).

Well there's your problem... how did a chicken get involved with your order???</font>

Umm, actually, well, you see... Credit cards have an encoding system wherein the first digit of the card number identifies the type of card - To wit: 3 - Amex 4 - Visa 5 - MC 6 - Discover So all this gnashing of teeth and self flagellation may be for nought. As usual.

Just to add to the confusion, I wouldn't mind seeing a CMBO ver 2, i.e. West Front revisited using the CMBB engine. No new programming (or not much), just a few new vehicles, plus the neat improved mechanics and eye candy from CMBB. And I'd certainly pay "full boat" for it - $45 cash American. Wouldn't slow down the CMII engine rewrite much, and it mught provide some useful cash flow to help that noble project! Anybody else? L4Pilot "Slow Airplanes and Fast Women"

Santa Monica, Newport or Pasadena would be fine with me. My offer re: Spitfire Grill is still valid, and Sunday would be better than Saturday for me. L4Pilot

I'm going to suggest throwing it open to time and place, again. The restaurant is still fine if so desired, but I'm getting conflicting information about the Museum of Flying's closure date. Also, apparently most of the intersting WWII airccraft have been moved out (to Mojave). And several of the original proponents of Santa Monica seem to be unable. Perhaps we will want to wait until CMBB is shipping so as to have something to go ga-ga over when we get together. l4Pilot

I'll work on making the arrangements with the Museum and the restaurant. And although this certainly won't matter to any of the expected attendees, the current draught beer list from Spitfire Grill includes: Angel City Lager Fosters Lager Oregon Honey Lager Samuel Adams Lager Angel City Ale Bass Ale Firestone Double Barrel Ale Newcastle Brown Ale Sierra Nevada Pale Ale Pyramid Hefeweizen Wyder's Pear Cider Guinness Stout As well as a number of domestic and imported bottled beverages. L4Pilot

The Muiseum of Flying is open Sat -Sun 10-5. It takes an hour or less to see pretty well. I'm still waiting for a callback re: group admission. I work til 4 on Saturday, but I can join up with whatever the group is doing at that time. And Spitfire Grill (which incidently has about a dozen beers on tap, not that that would matter to members of this get-together) should be available from 3pm on. So if that's the choice, let me know about the timing, so's I can firm it up with the places involved. Oh yeah, do the San Diego county people want to carpool up here? Having grown up in San Diego, I know about the drive. (Psss... The San Diego Aerospace Museum is better) Also I just found out that the Museum of Flying in Snata Monica will be closing permanentlky on June 30 of this year :mad: Don't get me started on that little fiasco! L4Pilot [ May 09, 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: L4Pilot ]

Should the group decide on the Santa Monica area, I can do a little facilitating, if that would help. I have a small business there at Santa Monica airport. The Spitfire Grill restaurant, which is on the field, has a meduim-sized, glassed-in area in the back that they would be happy to set up for us, given a little notice. They said they can set up the tables to accommodate some laptops, and such. I've also got a call into the Tours and Groups person at the Museum of Flying with regard to discount admission. And yes, they do (did) have a Yak 9 in flying condition on display. (I was the first manager at the museum, but they'll probably still let us in anyway. ) The museum is only open on weekends currently. Saturday and Sunday would also definitely be better than a Friday night from a traffic perspective. So let's see what the group decides. L4Pilot [ May 08, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: L4Pilot ]

And there are a couple of restaurants on the field that might be appropriate for a get together - Typhoon, with a view of the runway and Spitfire Grill - with some tables in the back and more beers On Tap. (BTW, the movie was named for the restaurant, not the other way around.) And SMO is not far off the 405 Freeway. L4Pilot

Being a little more mobile than the last time this came up, I'm up for something. I'm in Santa Monica. Where's this old airport being bandied about? L4Pilot

So, cardmaster, welcome to the Combat Mission Forum. While we are all waiting patiently for CMBB, why don't you tell us a little about yourself, so we can all get to know you a little better. For example, it would be fun to know where you live, what interests you have and how long you have been playing Combat Mission:Beyond Overlord. And anything else you would feel comfortable sharing with the Forum. And how did you choose your Forum name? Are you, perhaps, a magician? Just curious, L4Pilot

And yet another way to model bailed out crews, mortar teams without their weapons and "spent" FO's would be to model their weapons correctly, but limit their morale to never better than "cautious". You know - slow to react (except to withdraw), slow to fire and prone to panic.

Gonna take issue with that one. Although they wouldn't use the same sound and flash triangulation methods utilized by ground based counter battery location methods, thay seemed to do just fine by direct observation. Here's some quotes from Ken Wakefields "Fighting Grasshoppers": "When we were ten miles or so behind enemy lines - where we had to go to find the enemy batteries - it was a long way to go to get home." "Within the next week my observer and I destroyed at least ten enemy gun batteries..." "The [Air OP] patrols also served to served to minimize German artillery activity as the enemy was inclined to withhold fire when Air OP's were in the vicinity; the Germans quickly discovered that to fire, and be observed, was to invite massive retaliation from US batteries." Andreas, I do appreciate your providing the info at your site re: the counter battery location methods used when you don't have the luxury of some Piper Cubs flitting about.

Spotter Planes....

With a screen name like Harry Flashman, could we expect anything else Welcome to the forum. L4Pilot

Neat idea! Or to put at least one aspect in a little more concrete terms, what about random flashes against various parts of the night skyline, much the way we get random rumbles from all quadrants with ambient sound selected. And like ambient sound, this could be switched on and off for performance reasons. Be just the thing for those massive Russian night attacks! And BTW, BTS, any chance of hearing the Katyusha - Stalin Organ sound from the appropriate direction a few seconds (or however long is appropriate) before the impacts begin. Seems like it would be no more difficult to add than the artillery whine was. Talk about immersion! Talk about striking fear into the hearts of those on the receiving end. Maybe there should be a "take cover"effect on all units on the map when that sound is heard in the distance!

It depends on what you mean by a "simulation" of Operation Sealion. Can't see any reason why scenarios that involve conscript British (Home Guard) and equipment poor regulars come up against regular and veteran German units in the approriate terrain (though this may have to wait for CM4 for all these elements to be together in the same game.) If you mean German forces wading ashore across blazing oil covered beaches, my guess is that won't happen for the same reason that CMBO doesn't cover the beach landings of Overlord. But, even this might be moddable in the same way that some good mod's of beach terrain have become available. But I think that CMBB is uppemost on everyone's minds and will be the principle focus for the next few years.

Won't the already included factors of command quality and troop quality result in near historic results, even in the early battles of the war in Russia? Won't many or most of the battles during the first months of the campaign involve Veteran or Regular Axis units facing Green or Conscript Soviet forces? And wouldn't there be significantly fewer Russian commanders with leadership bonuses? My guess is that these factors, when extended to all the arms on both sides, and incorporating with the human wave/assault distinction you point out, will yield results that aren't consistently out of line with those of history. Does anyone recall if there are going to be negative command bonuses (or should I say command penalties) for truly bad commanders? And another question I have is about "global morale." I recall that the "fitness" of troops will be modeled in CMBB. My understanding is this reflects the physical state (hunger, prolonged exposure, etc.) of the troops. And morale, as it is currently used in the game, reflects the immediate "in-game" experience of the troops. But what about the impact of the external events, the situation external to the scenario, on the game units morale and esprit de corps. Certainly there were situations on both sides where, independent of physical conditions or training, a pattern of victories or losses, prolonged advances or retreats, or extended periods of combat, siege or idleness affected the combat units disposition and abilities. Anybody know if this type of longer term morale will be reflected in CMBB? Is this something that should be included in the CM2 rewrite?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: L4Pilot - is the Normandy campaign still on? <hr></blockquote> Nah. Bitin' off more than I could chew plus 3 hospital stays and an extended period of home IV treatment kinda took the wind of my sails re: Normandy Campaign. The maps of the Normandy area that I was waiting for arrived in the middle of one of those enforced stays. I did post a note explaining what happened here a while ago, but it was probably easily overlooked. I still think the idea of the using the HPS PanzerCampaign series as a campaign game framework is a good one, at least until an "official" solution is available. The availability of "Bulge'44" adds even more possibilities for CMBO. "Kharkov," "Smolensk" and "Tobruk" plus whatever else is in the works offer neat possibilities for CMBB and CM3. At a minimum they are a good resource for OOB and terrain info for their respective battles. I've thought about trying to revive (Clear!! zzzzappp!!!!!) the Normandy Campaign, perhaps in a more manageable form. But given my uncertain health and business problems associated with the 9/11 attack, I guess I'm not the person to do it. I appreciate the enthusiasm and participation of the people involved. It sure would be a good way to spend the time waiting for CMBB wouldn't it? Thanks for asking, Michael. L4Pilot

This discussion reminds me of wondering why the sharpshooter in SPR, if he was such a good shot, didn't do the same thing to the AFV gun that was about to blow him up. Wouldn't have been as dramatic?

Interesting idea (the one soldier unit.) Amother idea along the same lines would be a 2 man team (sans bazooka) just right for manning Observation Posts or scouting ahead. This unit would be assumed to have a walkie-talkie or field phone (in the case of an OP) connection. You might have to pay a little extra for it on a per-man basis, but it would be better than using split squads or anti tank teams for the same purpose. Another way to do it would be to allow the splitting of HQ units for "detached duty." This would reflect being able to detach the platoon or company scouts. The leadership bonus would remain with the non-detached potion of the HQ and the disadvantage would be that the HQ would be that much more "fragile" i.e. close to elimination. This would put a limit on the number of listening posts that could be created, which is probably desirable. And anyone interested in a man-to-man level WWII computer game, please email me. This isn't the place to discuss it, but I'm aware of one. And no, it's not GI Combat. L4 "They who pound their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who do not."