Random Discussion #2

[Avatar]

Rambo, I believe you're refering to ideology. People often mistake it for a religion, for it has some resemblances, but it is something quite separate. Heavily religious Germans were by and large against Hitler, but had no choice accepting his regime. What most don't understand, is that once Hitler came to power, it was too late to stop it. Bush got into power for his term on shaky grounds, and Gore had more of the popular vote. Yet for even those who despise the man, we play out democracy and wait for the next election, like it should be. The Germans voted Hitler in fair and square (up to debate of course), and hence the whole country had to subjected to his rule. And let's face it, he appeared to be a man for all Germans (excl. german jews).... at first.

[BochiW]

Would just like to ad one point to the many good ones made. Perhaps not a decision per se but something else that did greatly reduce Germany's chance of a "victory"

Intelligence. Breaking the Jerry codes made it posible to do little things like sink tankers taking desperately need fuel to Rommel.

[Desert Dave]

YOU'VE got to be kidding me or you're brain lives in a desert, Desert Dave. You can't figure out that God just might be against Germany, Adolf Hitler & his murderous plan? Well, it's the sign of the times not to have an opinion, not to "have a take", & hide behind your coke bottle & computer.

LOL! Ah, j_j_r, you are a finely crafted piece of work.

Fair criticism, however; what do I actually think?

Besides trying to somehow get at that "kaleidoscopic Gestalt" I mean? You want subjectively derived "facts?"

OK. Why did GErmany lose WW2?

1) Because they couldn't build weapons and rolling stock as fast as the USA could. The war was instrumentally "won" in all those Industrial assembly-lines on the West Coast and around the Great Lakes.

2) Because Goering frittered away "the steel and the soul" of the Luftwaffe in The Battle of Britain. A waste of time, and daring, well trained men, and scarce materiels.

3) Because the GErmans didn't FOCUS the assault in Russia. Should have taken that "symbolic center of Power" - Moscow, instead of spreading their forces and stretching the front lines until... the Russians could re-group and hurl hastily recruited troops into " the Steppes thresher."

4) Because they finally ran out of hard-trained "Prussian" Cadre and were at last overwhelmed by fanatics & beserkers... immensely inventive and truly determined Allies as well.

5) Because they air assaulted Crete instead of Malta.

6) Because they built Tirpitz instead of better naval bombers and more advanced U-boots.

7) Because they started the war 3 years too early, and didn't allow sufficient time for their once superior technological knowledge to actually be tested and fully applied.

8) Because the SS was let loose to murder and massacre when THOSE faux soldiers should have been rounded up early and put deep in dungeons. A policy of trying to recruite the many, many millions who were opposed to Communism likely would have succeeded.

9) Because the GErman Volk were brainwashed by political leaders into believing all that seriously stupid stuff about the "manifest destiny of the superior race." Neitzsche's philosophy was manipulated and misunderstood, just like today.

10) Because Hitler and Himmler and Heydrich and Borman and all the rest of that street gang were "sissy sociopaths" who could NOT enact "normal" masculine traits and impulses... instead, they behaved like boorish bored children and laughed & laughed while they pulled the wings off of flies. Just like TOO many political leaders today.

Well, there are 10... as Avatar has suggested, there are surely 100s more.

**NOTE: As a young man I lived in GErmany for almost 4 years and can honestly tell you that there AIN'T much difference between the Volk I met over there, and the people I see walking around whistling Mad-Avenue jingles on Main Street, USA.

Perhaps there was a bit more of that "Teutonic Spirit," where mundane and "mechanical aptitudes" are rigorously and STRICTLY applied. Whether it be crafting a Mercedes, or climbing an Austrian mountain, or... turning metaphysical contemplation into some kind of sheer logical exercise where the "great & sublime" is finally lost in that rude and dutiful "process." :eek:

But, all in all, I am firmly believing that what happened in GErmany in the 1930s, could surely happen TODAY in USA... or Canada, or Kiev, or Bolivia or Tibet... or or or or.

WW2 was no ABERRATION, it was simple and decent human beings... forgetting all about earned Epiphanies, and Art, and Grace, and commonly reached decisions & conclusions, and choosing (... often, by NOT choosing) WILL-FULLY to just... "let the damned Demons out" and oh gee whiz, we'll see... what might happen.

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

But, all in all, I am firmly believing that what happened in GErmany in the 1930s, could surely happen TODAY in USA... or Canada, or Kiev, or Bolivia or Tibet... or or or or.

The thin line between saluting the winners and despising the loser and the thin line between disliking individuals/groups and bullying them that is the thin line between democracy and nazism.

There are many ppl out there today that are semi-nazis but do not even know it.

[jon_j_rambo]

It could happen in America.

You really see Nazis taking over America? I don't think that White Power crap will be much of a draw in the Hood.

[JerseyJohn]

Hitler and the Nazis were never voted into power. Their popular support was actually declining in 1933!

They had enough government seats to act as a spoiler, which they did repeatedly. Hoping to end that practice and also to use them against the socialists, Franz von Pappen and several other officials prominent in the Weimar government, persuaded the president, Fieldmarshal von Hindenburg, an octogenarian at the time, to appoint Hitler as his chancellor.

Once in office, Hitler appointed other nazis to key posts and when von Hindenburg died the following year he combined the offices of President and Chancellor, making him, in effect, Germany's dictator.

The only elections that were held were as a yes or no vote in support of the Nazis. With Brown shirt thugs at every polling place the overwhelming vote was yes, well over 90%. That was the last semblence of a national election the Germans had till long after the end of WWII.

Hitler and von Papen, his predecessor as Chancellor, walking with other Weimar officials during the brief period after Hitler's appointment as Chancellor and the actual Nazi takeover of Germany.

Nazism has little to do with the German people as a whole. To imply that it does is pure stupidity. There are nazis in all countries and I've got many in my own town. No, I'm not one of them. As a matter of fact, they don't seem to like me very much which is something I'm proud of.

And yes, I can see a similar group taking a back door emergency power route into office in the U. S. A.. It's the sort of thing that can happen anywhere and will not necessarily have anything to do with racism, white power or otherwise. The main trait of these people is a total disregard for individual worth and the rights of man. As Hitler himself said, "What is the individual? Nothing. All that matters is the State." Think about those words and you'll understand what nazism and any other form of fascism is really about.

[ August 19, 2004, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[jon_j_rambo]

I've never seen a Nazi my entire life, the average American probably doesn't know what they even are except for watching Indianna Jone's movies.

[JerseyJohn]

YOU haven't seen one, so what? They don't run around wearing swatztikas, at least the majority of them don't. I strongly suspect you wouldn't realize they were there even if you were in a room surrounded by dozens of them.

If you've never even seen one, what makes you such an authority on who is, and who isn't, and where they live, and where they don't live?

[ August 20, 2004, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[SeaMonkey]

Well Gents, where I come from....we don't like Nazis, or any other group which wishes to subject another to their philosophies. We will politely listen and incorporate the silver lining of any dark cloud, but leave that darkness to the north of the Red River or the East of the Sabine...to the south of the Rio Grande, don't be bringing it to Texas....land of the Cowboys and an abundantly armed populace...which will only relinquish their arms from their cold dead fingers..."Let Freedom Ring", ...Remember the Alamo.

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey

Things are never that simple. I just put Texas Nazis on my search engine and this is what came up:

Results 1 - 10 of about 166,000 for Texas Nazis. (0.28 seconds

166,000 links!

The Nazis we're talking about don't look like Heinrich Himmler or Adolf Hitler and they don't talk like Joseph Goebles, they're home grown, not imported. You find them everywhere. I happen to like many of the ones I know and have known, but that doesn't change the fact that they're nazis.

When WWII ended, German Nazi war criminals fled to all parts of the globe and the overwhelming majority of them had no problem blending in with their new surroundings. Why? Because they're no different from anyone else, it's only the occasion that brings out the characteristics that make them such dangerous people. As one death camp victim put it, "Remove the uniform and they are nobody, but give them the boots and hat and insignia and all of a sudden they are monsters!"

And they probably won't even be calling themselves nazis, the same thing can have any one of an infinite number of names.

Finally, the Germans and Italians didn't want to be dictated to either and Germany, after WWI had entire private armies roaming the country with their government issue machine guns and artillery, they were called Freikorps. Arming the population is meaningless.

[SeaMonkey]

Interesting JJ,

Boots, Hats....you say....hmmm I wonder if spurs count as an insignia. Come to think of it there is some kind of brand on my chaps. And this shirt I have on has a rider on a horse with some kind of sledgehammer in his hand...no doubt to crack some heads. By the way, did any of those links come back with reference to ZioNazis? If they did.....well never you guys mind, we know what to do with them. In the words of our next president, "hook up telephone wires to human genitalia and turn up the current".

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey

I'm cringing in imagined pain over that last line!

-- I think either of our possible next presidents would be fully capable of saying that so I won't ask for the specifics. Actually, I'm afraid to.

I didn't look at too many of those links when I saw how many there were. Then it occurred to me that I hadn't done it properly, instead of Texas Nazis it should have been Texas + Nazis, which cuts well over a thousand links from the list, leaving us with:

Results 1 - 10 of about 165,000 for Texas+Nazis. (0.53 seconds)

New Jersey and New York, naturally don't need any substantiation, everyone knows both states have always been full of Nazis. The American Nazi Party was born in Upstate New York. Most of it's campsites were in New Jersey and there is a town on Long Island (NY) not far from where I spent most of my teen years, where they streets had names like Goebels Ct, Himmler Avenue and Adoff Hitler Blvd. All of which, not surprisingly, were changed during the Second World War.

Yugoslavia is the best example I think of regarding what we were discussing. Out of nowhere we began seeing images of concentration camps and hearing phrases like Ethnic Cleansing which, of course, is only another way of saying Final Solution, this time with Moslems as the victims instead of Jews -- the identity of the group being killed off isn't important. Some of the fathers and grandfathers of those being killed by the so called Christians served in the Moslem Division of the SS during WWII, when they gleefully help round up Gypsies, Jews and communists for their new masters.

[SeaMonkey]

You are so right JJ, the identity doesn't matter, the charade of evilness as something righteous will forever be with us. But I digress with you over the simplicity, for it is indeed simple, especially for a simpleton like me, the line of debarkation is distinctive. To put it in the words of one of our immortal forefathers, "Give me liberty, or give me death". And it only takes a few more simpletons with the same ideology and great nations are built.

[DSEDS]

Okay, here´s my answer why germany loose the war:

1. Chamberlain won the war for Britain in 1937. Chamberlain won valuable time for Britain, France and Poland.

The Military Industrie Output of these countries were 1937 too small. If Germany had started the war in 1937, it never had turned into a "world war".

2. In Novemver 1940 Molotov visited Hitler in Berlin. He came as "a friend" and offered germany that the soviet union will be totally neutral and germany could give the soviets almost the half of the balkans.

Hitler was very angry about this "offer", he didnt knew that Roosevelt, a few years later, would pay a much higher price (the baltics, whole eastern europe, half of germany, ect.) for the friendship with the soviets. (Roosevelt loved the Soviet Union)

In this hour, where Hitler said "No", in this hour germany loosed the war.

This was the desicion about the fate of germany, europe and maybe the whole word.

In this hour germany loosed the war, Eastern Europe his freedom and Britain his Empire.

Roosevelt find a nice way treating the the americans and enter the way. He found his new "lusitania" and sacrificed 4000 americans in Perl Habour. We know today the the US Military knew detailed the Japanese attack plans weeks before the attack happend. They do nothing to have a reason to enter the war.

Forget all Battles, Tactics and Strategies. The war was won by the US Industries and cornet beef, the russian winter and the masses of russian solders. Thats it. Be happy with that and dont think about "what if" szenarios.

Thanks for reading, im sorry for grammatical errors. Greetings from Germany.

DSEDS

[ August 20, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: DSEDS ]

[JerseyJohn]

SeaMonkey

The only point we disagree on is this, that SeaMonkey guy is no simpleton!

And even with our Founding Fathers, we can see the frustration of trying to put high ideals into actual practice. Pre-existing conditions suddenly enter such as slavery!

Accept it as an economic necessity and a right of part of the citizenry and you're suddenly denying that part of the population is entitled to human being status.

Bringing us back to "All Men are Created Equal -- Give me Liberty or Give Me Death!" Except for slaves, who are neither equal or free and the children they produce are also property rather than human beings. The result was to classify that group as partial humans, which is frighteningly similar to the Nazi view of untermenschen, including Slavs and various other racial groups considered as fit for nothing more than slavery.

Even the Free Greeks, the originators of democracy who fought at Marathon were slave owners! In their case there was no racial distinction between master and slave!

So, as you say, we have the same issues that will seemingly be with us forever regardless of what group of people we're talking about.

But I wonder how things would have evolved in the United States, at least, if the Founding Fathers would have taken a harder line and abolished slavery from the start. If they'd have gone for an uncompromised and literal interpretation of the noble principles they wrote about and discussed but didn't fully put into action.

[SeaMonkey]

Oh so true my dear JJ, your words resound with the ringing clarity of the Liberty Bell.....and the struggle against hypocrisy continues, ...unfortunately probably for eternity.

[JerseyJohn]

Yes, my dear SeaMonkey and eternity can be a long, long time, but it seems we're stuck with it.

[jon_j_rambo]

Sir Jersey --- I hate to break the news to you, but you really need to learn how the search engines work. Put "Texas Nazis" in quotes, that will reduce your numbers considerable. Then you'll see, it's mostly some whacky punk rock band with a goofy name just to sell records.

Folks, the Nazis aren't an issue in the States, trust the Legend. There are a some hate groups, but they are far & few between. And yes, they hide in the closet where they belong, I'll take the brothers in the Hood over them.

[flamingknives]

"How Germany could have won the war"

It's startling how many of these reasons would, by necessity, mean that Germany would not have started the war in the first place.

Had the Nazis, and all their attendent idiocies and unpleasantness, not been in power, it's highly unlikely that they would have gone to war in the first place.

And the attack on Pearl harbor wasn't 'ignored' by those in command. The facts were in the possession of the intelligence services, but at the time they werenotworking as a team or actually collating all the intel they had. There was noone to put the pieces together and what data there was on the sneak attack was overwhelmed by the amount of data regarding Japanese operations in SE Asia.

[Avatar]

Ok, most of those previous points by DSEDS are hogwash imo. I don't need to rebutt them, they rebutt themselves.

Pearl Harbour? If you actually need to know, Roosevelt DID know about an impending attack by the Japanese. Completely, 100%. He wanted them to attack, obviously, to bring America into the war. A war he wanted to get involved in, for good reason. However, what you all fail to realize, is that he didn't know WHERE the attack was going to take place. All the top brass and intelligence officers assumed the attack would take place in South East Asia, most likely the Phillipines. It was thought impossible that a Japanese attack on Hawaii could happen, it was simply to far. Remember, up to that point, no similiar attack had ever occured from such a distance.

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo

Thanks for the help, that works much better!

Fifty-five is the proper age to learn how to use a search engine; it's too powerful a tool for youngsters!

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,870 for "American Nazis".

[jon_j_rambo]

Sir Jersey --- Who'd ever thought we'd be looking up Nazis on a computer? I know what you mean by those fruitcakes are out there. The East Coast probably has more of them. Northern Idaho is flooded with white power camps & Washington has their KKK devils.

By the way, if you drive thru a small nowhere town and the name of the store is spelled with a "K", count on it being a Klan supporter.

Klean Shirt Laundry (instead of Clean Shirt Laundry)

Idaho, too great to hate. Hate is a sin.

[JerseyJohn]

General Rambo,

There are still places like that in inland New Jersey and you're right about the east coast having more of them, you really do see it sometimes.

I probably mentioned this to you before but in case I didn't ...

Around 1981 I struck up a friendship with an elderly guy at a chess tournament. As I sat down to play he asked me, in an innocent manner, "You look a little Jewish?" and I casually said I was mostly German and Italian and he smiled and we began playing. Over the years we became very good friends and when he stopped playing in tournaments I'd go to his house to play. He was a widower in his late eighties. Everyone called him, The Swede

We'd have dinner and a casual game and would mainly talk about music and history. As he got older he began losing it and brought me back to his small study where he showed me things that made my hair stand up. He was a Finn who'd moved to Germany in the early thirties because he wanted to join the Nazis!

During WWII he was a noncom in a Waffen SS unit. He showed me an album he had of photos he took while fighting in Russia. Much of it was of civilians hanging from tree limbs, one of them was a branch full of kids. He shook his head and said, "Those rascals, what didn't they do?!" almost affectionately.

This was someone who was like a kindly old uncle to me (I was in my mid-thirties). It was impossible for me to hate him but he was about as far into being a nazi as anyone can get. Not long afterwards he had to be hospitalized and I don't know what happened to him.

During that same time I lived in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood and knew several people about that guy's age who had survived concentration camps. In one instance a young idiot came by and told a woman with a camp number tatooed on her forearm that the Holocaust was a lie!

Another interesting former Nazi I knew wore a Yarmulke! His father was German and his mother Jewish-German. He was a WWI veteran and during the twenties he joined the SA. After the Nazis took power and began keeping accurate records they found out about his mother's side and kicked him out.

His former commander advised him to leave Germany, and he did, eventually ending up in Brooklyn. Years later, when he learned about the concentration camps he went all the way and became a religious Jew. He admitted to me that during the 1920s he used to roam the streets in Germany along with other brown shirts, beating socialists with billy-clubs, in many instances probably beating them to death.

I saw so many different variations of both nazis and nazi victims among old people living in Brooklyn in the eighties that almost nothing would surprise me. What really worries me is the ones like that fool I described who'd tell a survivor right to her face that none of it every happened! He said she was a liar and exaggerating. A bunch of Jewish guys started listening and he was lucky to get away without going to the hospital, or worse.

A lot of people who are attracted to these things don't even think of themselves as being nazis. As Germany conquered countries they became very skilled in finding these groups and absorbing them. In many occupied countries the Jews and Gypsies were rounded up by locals who had been recruited by the Gestapo to do it's dirty work.

This is the symbol used the Hungarian Arrow Cross, who were more hated and feared by Hungarian Jews than the Gestapo!

As you say, there's alway that lunatic fringe in every country. It's never more than a matter of the right opportunity coming along for them to suddenly come to life. There was even a fairly numerous English Nazi party that included their famous General Fuller that was flourishing right up to the start of the war.

At one point the American Nazis were numerous enough to hold a rally at Madison Squard Garden.

Interestingly, Adolf Hitler discouraged the organizing of nazis in the United States because, contrary to what many people believed, he wanted the U. S. to remain neutral. He feared the American Nazis would stir-up trouble that they couldn't handle and that would help polarize the U. S. against Germany. He was right.

[ August 21, 2004, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[DSEDS]

Originally posted by Avatar:

Ok, most of those previous points by DSEDS are hogwash imo. I don't need to rebutt them, they rebutt themselves.

Please rebutt.

However, what you all fail to realize, is that he didn't know WHERE the attack was going to take place.

The Military Intel know about the attack on perl harbour by 6th Dec, more then enough time for an alarm. But youre right that the US Intelligence are far from beeing "good". Today and at that time.

[jon_j_rambo]

Sir Jersey --- Yes, those Nazi Devils "love to hate". Their hearts are darkened, empty, & lost. They have no comprehension of righteousness, life, or love. Ocassionally, I'll see some Skin-Head freak with a bunch of bobbie-pins rivoted thru their face wearing swastikas. These losers like to say "the Holocause is a lie"...it's stupid to even talk to them. Why? Because they will just argue JUST TO GET YOU MAD, they know it happened.

My Uncle J. & several relatives were put in a camp by those Pigs during a business trip to Europe. They were accused of being Jew lovers, American Jews, etc. They were able to escape during a transfer, don't know the details whether there was money paid or not? My Uncle J. later lived in D.C area, was a lawyer, raised a family, etc. He died of natural causes a few years ago.

My Uncle K. got the horror of serving on a destroyer that was sunk in the Atlantic at age 19. He was one of the lucky ones to survive. He later became an engineer, worked for NASA, now chilling out in his 80's. He never had anything positive to say about Germans. We were told never to ask him about the war.

"Nazis, I hate these guys" --- Indianna Jones in The Last Crusade.