Random Discussion #2

[kurt88]

Perhaps it would have helped if this thread had a different title?

I think he's gone beyond help.

For some reason he's always insulting us...

And this board always put's up with it.

If some of the Euro's here would attack you Americans the same way... right!!

[JerseyJohn]

Who would that be?

You're lucky, at least you weren't labelled Satan or the Antichrist!

[kurt88]

You're right my friend, as always...

But come on, ...

You know what I'm talking about! :eek:

[arax3]

Avatar is right about US contribution to winning the world wars. No US, no victory. Everything else, Argie is wrong about, and I think deep down hes smart enough to know it. JJR: you are only a legend in your own mind. A3

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

It isn't that I totally disagree. I understand what you're saying, but it's like before when you talking about the independent role of the British 8th Army, it was filled with American Grant, Sherman and Stuart tanks! No single country won the war against Germany, I'd rather just leave it at that.

I have stated time and again how important the role of the US was. It's involvement shortened the war and saved western Europe from communism. That in itself was a massive contribution. I, and I think the majority, believe that WW2 was won on the Eastern Front. The Western Front contributed immensely, and a sacrifice we can barely imagine today was made there, which simply underlines the enormity of the sacrifice the Soviet Union made.

Lend Lease was important to the Soviet Union, even though it's importance was downplayed after the war. If you're going to make the case for it being pivotal in avoiding defeat, then please, set forth the numbers here, including Soviet production as a comparison. I'm sure many would find it illuminating.

And as for the personal attacks, either debate the issues or take your flags and wave them elsewhere.

[JerseyJohn]

Original Post Moved:

Sirocco

"And as for the personal attacks, either debate the issues or take your flags and wave them elsewhere."

Me? What personal attacks have I made?

Aside from which I agreed with you that the whole thing was a team effort.

I'd like to move. Anyway my wife won't let me so I'm stuck in New Jersey but thanks for the thought!

[kurt88]

Moved accordingly

[JerseyJohn]

Kurt,

(Post moved from above)

Sure I do my friend, but we both know he's not about to change. And if he did who can say what direction it would take, we might end up wishing for the Good Old Rambo!

I can neither explain nor understand the Euro-baiting stuff. I'm sure he means it as a joke except it's easy for us Americans to forget you Europeans were infinitely more involved than we were. Most of us had relatives who served in the war, but it's easy for us to forget that many of you had relatives who may have been shipped off to camps never to be heard from again, or taken out and hanged or shot in retaliation for a piece of railroad track that was sabotaged.

Making fun of the Germans doesn't work either because the average German is like the average person anywhere. It's as bad as peeing on the Vietnam Memorial to show sympathy for the Vietnamese. Yeah, I lived through that one and served in it. 90% of the servicement I knew felt Vietnam was wrong, but your country is in it and that means you're in it too. I'm sure the poor bastards freezing in the German lines at Stalingrad felt the same way.

In the end it's only the common people who suffer. And they're the same all over. You know that and I know that. Feel sorry for anyone who doesn't.

[jon_j_rambo]

When I first stepped on the scene here at Battlefront, it was heavily pro-German this & that about WW-2. Next, is this anti-US stuff. Well, my cousin is serving overseas in Iraq. I'm not going to sit here & have a bunch of Euros who have been living off our protection for the last 60 years diss the USA. You be speaking German or Russian, or dead if we didn't take care of business & finish the job. Now, you speak English, know what the transaction rate is for the almighty dollar, & are using computer technology invented in Beaverton, Oregon, & just right up the street from me, Billy Gate's Redmond, Washington.

What is the fansination with dissing on the USA to defend the honor of a murderer like Saddam?

Far as being in rare form, yes, you're right. Football season has started & it's an election year.

"Four more years! 1st Down & a cloud of dust."

and the whole congregation said,"Amen!" and the people chanted after the Bush speech,"USA, USA, USA, USA, USA!!!!!"

My Cousin C. is in Iraq, we support you!

[kurt88]

Yeah, you're right!

I'll go and have some more beer now. I was getting a bit carried away wasn't I ??

Hmmm...

[JerseyJohn]

I like this musical post idea.

Until recently I was always an average of 500 posts ahead of Brother Rambo and now I suddenly see he's a few hundred up on me! :eek:

This cannot be!

SC has only begun to imagine what a truly meaningless post is till I regain the lead -- Forward to 6000!

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Me? What personal attacks have I made?

The comment wasn't directed at you. I should have worded it better.

[JerseyJohn]

Appreciated.

[jon_j_rambo]

Sirocco --- Sir Jersey is a made man, he's given you a little space & understands your points. Give the guy his respect & don't put words in his keyboard.

[JerseyJohn]

Thank You Brother Rambo, and likewise.

I'm sure he didn't do it intentionally, those posts followed each other very quickly and when the issue becomes heated those things always happen.

[jon_j_rambo]

Okay, we're all friends again. "One, Two, Three, Team, Break!"

[Avatar]

I quote:

"The USA supplied the USSR with 6,430 planes, 3,734 tanks, 104 ships and boats, 210,000 autos, 3,000 anti-aircraft guns, 245,000 field telephones, gasoline, aluminum, copper, zinc, steel and five million tons of food. This was enough to feed an army of 12 million every day of the war. Britain supplied 5,800 planes, 4,292 tanks, and 12 minesweepers. Canada supplied 1,188 tanks, 842 armoured cars, nearly one million shells, and 208,000 tons of wheat and flour. The USSR depended on American trucks for its mobility since 427,000 out of 665,000 motor vehicles (trucks and jeeps) at the end of the war were of western origin. "

[JerseyJohn]

Avatar

Great figures and supports what I said in about five of the early posts here before it all went out of focus.

But -- what are you quoting?

[Avatar]

http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-09.html

Site about Ukrainian losses in WW2. Poor people. According to the site, Ukrainians suffered more than any other people in the war. I believe it. They seemed to have lost 25-30% of their population, thousands of museums, libraries, and most of their industry.

And yep, the intention was to provide some figure support to your (our) arguement. Although I agree it's hard to pinpoint exactly how helpful all this lend-lease was, it was clearly a huge boost.

[JerseyJohn]

Avatar

Thanks for the source, it is indeed ours and not mine, sorry, I didn't mean to refer to it that way.

I've never seen much Soviet film footage that shows American made tanks being used by their troops. They produced many times more T-34s than the number of Shermans the United States sent, but I've always been very curious about where those American tanks found use? Possibly in rear areas or against the satallite Axis units that weren't well equiped with antitank weapons.

The Ukranians are indeed tragic in that era. They were persecuted under Stalin before the war, victimized by the Axis during the fighting and again targeted, with all the other occupied populations, by Stalin when the war ended.

I believe the Poles lost about 33% of their population as well. Like the Ukranians, the Poles also suffered horrifically at the hands of the SS and Gestapo.

Great Random Discussion Generator you've got there!

[Liam]

Those Lendlease Tanks could've easily been modified by the Reds into something useful. That lighter armor could be easily used for a variety of uses. Just let it sit there as a garrison Pillbox with MGs and a cannon. Melt it down or break it a part for spare parts. I'm sure most of it ended up converted into scrap metal for conversion into Soviet Designs... Considering the Russians fought a majority of the War without the Ukraine, it would make sense that we sent them Food! They'd of been starving as that was their version of our Great Plains Bread Basket

Lendlease was dangerous, The Germans aimed at anything heading into Arch Angel operating out of Norway... I did hear of some major losses on our shipments to USSR and that Churchill was afraid to send any more due to the fact.

The Russians suprisingly enough had some awesome tanks, and assualt Rifles. Their Fighters and tankbusters were fair. Altogether their equipment was pretty good from what you hear. Though didn't seem to advance in great strides. More like quantity over quality longterm

[JerseyJohn]

Liam

That's an interesting possibility.

I'm only now coming to appreciate how many military formations Stalin had that were made up entirely of NKVD troops -- predecessor to the KGB. Many of them, entire brigades and divisions, were stationed hundreds or even thousands of miles from the fighting. Naturally they were not part of the war, they were in the distant rear areas to make sure the locals didn't decide to pull out of the Soviet Union.

It's my guess that the Shermans and other American made tanks would have been placed with those units. They'd have made great weapons for use against lightly armed rebels. Why waste T-34s and KVs in that sort of role.

[hellraiser]

"I'm not going to sit here & have a bunch of Euros who have been living off our protection for the last 60 years diss the USA. You be speaking German or Russian, or dead if we didn't take care of business & finish the job."

Yes, now we speak English

I think no one with at least a common sense of history would deny that the USA were of great help during very difficult times for a lot of Europeans countries. Common sense euros should be grateful to US because of that help. However it is difficult to just accept that US gets its nose stuck almost everywhere around this planet sometimes in disregard of local inhabitants' interests. Again, ppl with a common sense of history have to accept that the USA is just another empire. The Romans did it, the Turks did it, the Russians did it, the Germans did it, the British did it, the Japs did it ... now it is the USA time. They interfere because they CAN and they are pursuing their interests even if they limit others' interests by doing that. The american expansion is more sophisticated than previous expansions (second only to the Roman expansion): it started by exporting a very appealing life style which, to be honest, a lot of Euros imported it happily. The tools of their expansion are: pragmatism, efficiency, organization and of course a powerful military force. Recent developments of the political, economical and religious life on Earth made the USA use more and more the military power for stating something. Sometimes to defend something, sometimes to conquer something, under the perfect disguise of 'respecting the human rights', 'war on terror', etc. No, the real reason is expansion and protection of abroad interests. Everyone has to live with that, our forefathers lived with far worse perspectives than we do: at least we have the McDonalds and Hollywood films

It is a natural evolution: survival of the fittest and prey on the weak are the principles. The USA is just another empire, a more advanced and sophisticated empire but still an empire. And an empire is like an organism: it is born, it lives, it dies. Now, the USA are at the peak of its power but certainly one can notice signs of decadence already. Especially the ones living in the USA.

[zappsweden]

I agree with the "should be grateful" but I also think it works in both directions. USA should also be grateful that UK and Russia did not surrender, leaving USA with a MUCH larger force to begin a cold war against in the 1950's.

[Curry]

We need a lock on this thread. Where is Moon when you need him.