Johnsy Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 This is an opponents Tiger exchanging blows with my M10 in our PBEM game. This happened in the first minute of the battle. They both get two shots away each and all shots hit their targets. Who will survive??? http://youtu.be/t97c2SnN8Lc 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Poor guy - the M10 crew did a thorough job you must feel like the guy standing in the crowd - a pigeon flies over and ****s ; and guess whom it hits :-D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 The M10 is shooting down at the Tigger so can hit its weak top armour. Any glacis hits by the kitty will be glancing at very shallow angles, for the same reason. I don't think it's actually that lucky an outcome for the Wolverine. Still a bit lucky though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackMoria Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I will settle for lucky any time. Like the time I had a Stuart tank hidden in trees staking out a fording site and two Panthers suddenly showed and crossed the ford point. They didn't see me, I saw both of them and I 'one-shotted' each cat from the rear when they rumbled past me (range was less than 100 metres for both shots). Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I will settle for lucky any time. Like the time I had a Stuart tank hidden in trees staking out a fording site and two Panthers suddenly showed and crossed the ford point. They didn't see me, I saw both of them and I 'one-shotted' each cat from the rear when they rumbled past me (range was less than 100 metres for both shots). Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you. now that would be something. hope that was against a real player. You could have fun buggy him about that one for a long time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkWGriswold Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 This is an opponents Tiger exchanging blows with my M10 in our PBEM game. This happened in the first minute of the battle. They both get two shots away each and all shots hit their targets. Who will survive??? From the video, it looks to me like the Tiger's first shot missed. I agree with Womble though, the Tiger is shooting upwards and has a bad angle on the glacias of the M10, while the M10 is shooting downwards onto the thinner top armor of the Tiger. Not surprising that the Tiger was taken out, though the M10 certainly got lucky. What surprises me most is that the M10 took a casualty from the second shot, yet instead of popping smoke and reversing or just sitting there shocked, it gets off a very quick shot to take out the German halftrack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 What surprises me most is that the M10 took a casualty from the second shot, yet instead of popping smoke and reversing or just sitting there shocked, it gets off a very quick shot to take out the German halftrack. usually takes a few seconds to pop smoke and to throw in reverse. so if the gunner had the target in his crosshair - why not pull the trigger? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnsy Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 @ slysniper yes it was a human opponent and yes I'm giving him heaps over this. @ClarkWGriswold I think you're right about the Tiger missing the M10 with their first shot. Here is the exchange again from the M10's view. http://youtu.be/ueheytgtmLI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Let's see: IF I believed that the video shows where the shots REALLY hit , then: - the first M10 shot hit the Tiger's leading wheel from the side, destroyed it and then just skidded from the side armour. No harm done to the crew compartment. - The second M10 shot - hard to say, but looks like it hit Tiger's upper hull armour. The resulting "explosion" is graphically overmodelled.... It could destroy the kill/wound driver or radio operator and damage/destroy some stuff from driver's right panel. The resulting abandoning of the vehicle is quite realistic historically at this stage of war (Normandy). Depends on crew morale. Tank could be disabled anyway. Not sure if the M10's shell is AP-HE type. If it was, it might or might not work, could be shattered. - The Tiger's second shot seems to penetrate M10's front turret - and that would be very, very likely a knock-out with some crewmans killed and wounded. Doesn't seem likely for me, that a gunner would think about aiming and shooting the halftruck, if an 88mm APHE just penetrated (and most likely detonaded inside) the turret/mantlet armour on either his (gunner's) side - then he would be either killed or wounded and NOT shoot - or loader's side - killing and/or wounding the loader and/or commander. Also the gun could become damaged in the process. Vehicle either knocked out (at least the turret crew disabled), or maybe the driver (that sits in the hull and unharmed) would just reverse, if he believed he can do it before a next round arrives. Outcome (the shot to the halftruck) unlikely for me, but possible of course. Just feels very strange to see the shot just after the turret was penetrated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think the armour modeling needs to be given a once over, to be honest. Can anyone find any historical accounts of this happening? I have no problem with the Tiger being KO'd, for too long most wargames bought into the uber panzer myth, carefully crafted by the losers. The problem I have is with the state of the M-10 after being struck by an 88mm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClarkWGriswold Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 usually takes a few seconds to pop smoke and to throw in reverse. so if the gunner had the target in his crosshair - why not pull the trigger? Because he would be shocked from having his commander's guts splattered all over him? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Any chance of seeing the exchange with the 'hit text' turned on? You're right that the first 88 shot misses, and it would be interesting to see what the second shot from each actually hit. It occurs to me that there was a mistake at one stage with some of the Tiger's armour ratings. Was that fixed in 1.01? Is the game being played with 1.01? Morale ratings etc of the two crews could be salient in determining the outcome of the duel and subsequent KO of the Hanomag. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Because he would be shocked from having his commander's guts splattered all over him? look like the shot was fired almost in synch with the tiger shot. so the gunner would be so concentrated to get the shot off that he would realize the bad smell only afterwards? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnsy Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Any chance of seeing the exchange with the 'hit text' turned on? You're right that the first 88 shot misses, and it would be interesting to see what the second shot from each actually hit. It occurs to me that there was a mistake at one stage with some of the Tiger's armour ratings. Was that fixed in 1.01? Is the game being played with 1.01? Morale ratings etc of the two crews could be salient in determining the outcome of the duel and subsequent KO of the Hanomag. Yes, I'm uploading now to YouTube with the 'hit text' turned on. I'm off to bed soon, so I'll post it for you in the morning. I'm playing 1.01. and this is not the first time I've seen a tiger come off second best to a M10. The Panther is a much better tank than the tiger... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 look like the shot was fired almost in synch with the tiger shot. so the gunner would be so concentrated to get the shot off that he would realize the bad smell only afterwards? Not the shot at the half track. The M10 shot that kills the Tiger is almost simultaneous, yes, with the Tiger shot that causes a casualty in the M10. The half track shot requires a reaload, reacquire and re-aim cycle post-death. I'm sure Johnsy's next vid will shed more light on this mystery 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If the Tiger fired APHE then I guess there is an advantage to having an open topped vehicle, in a confined space even a small charge is lethal due to rebounding shockwaves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Not the shot at the half track. The M10 shot that kills the Tiger is almost simultaneous, yes, with the Tiger shot that causes a casualty in the M10. The half track shot requires a reaload, reacquire and re-aim cycle post-death. I'm sure Johnsy's next vid will shed more light on this mystery Now I see it. Waiting for the video for the other side :-) was the commander hit or somebody else? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnsy Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Here is the video with the text hits on. Hopefully it will shed some light on things. http://youtu.be/qPYTc0UQFW4 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gpig Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Heh heh, I can barely read tghe detailed armour hit text. Off topic: What sound mod are you using? Cheers, Gpig 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Here is the video with the text hits on. Hopefully it will shed some light on things. http://youtu.be/qPYTc0UQFW4 Thx - looks more like the driver's hit. Did I read right "Upper front hull" "armor spalling" for the M10? The first hit on the Tiger went into the wheels? Was the vehicle immobile afterwards? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 The Tiger was hit on the "Superstructure Front Hull", which in CMBN-speak means the steeply sloped plate between the upper and lower hull. This plate is the thinnest part of the Tiger's frontal area at only 60mm thick. It relies on the fact that it is steeply sloped to resist penetration, but the M10 was firing from a higher elevation, reducing the slope effect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 The Tiger was hit on the "Superstructure Front Hull", which in CMBN-speak means the steeply sloped plate between the upper and lower hull. This plate is the thinnest part of the Tiger's frontal area at only 60mm thick. It relies on the fact that it is steeply sloped to resist penetration, but the M10 was firing from a higher elevation, reducing the slope effect. Sorry Vanir, but the thin 60mm part is the "Upper Frontal Hull". The Superstructere Hull" is the Drivers Front Plate with 100mm Armor ! Iam 100% sure because i am the one who discovered that the 60mm upper frontal hull is rendered to thin. actually i cannot understand the problem in this thread because the 76mm from the m10 at these short distance should have no problem with penetrating the tigers armor ! Even when it hits the frontal 100mm part. At least when it hits the tiger directly without any angle. The only way for the tiger to 100% prevent a penetration is in angling the chassis at around 45° to the enemy. (The Turret stays vulernable though) I think the video confirms the situation because the m10 did not penetrate the tiger (maybe because the tiger chassis stands in a slight angle to the m10) it only created armor spalling...the crew panicked and booted out ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Sorry Vanir, but the thin 60mm part is the "Upper Frontal Hull". The Superstructere Hull" is the Drivers Front Plate with 100mm Armor ! I went back to look and you are correct. Good catch. I should have remembered that. actually i cannot understand the problem in this thread because the 76mm from the m10 at these short distance should have no problem with penetrating the tigers armor ! Even when it hits the frontal 100mm part. At least when it hits the tiger directly without any angle. The only way for the tiger to 100% prevent a penetration is in angling the chassis at around 45° to the enemy. (The Turret stays vulernable though) True. It should be noted, however, that it is debatable how realistic this is. It appears the game may not model shatter gap, which would reduce the range at which the US 76mm gun could penetrate the Tiger hull down to less than 100m, at least for some US ammunition. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=990 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigduke6 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 On shatter gap, that looked like pretty close range, maybe 200 - 300 meters? Maybe between that and the higher ground that gave the 76mm round enough horsepower not to worry about shatter gap. Or maybe that particular lot of AP rounds hadn't been made by Chevorlet. That was some fast reloading by the Americans, some sergeant really made those boys sweat during training I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siffo998 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 i can remember that shatter gap only happens with tungsten shells. but the only m10 that use tungsten shells ingame were shipped to normandy in august (late M10). Dont know if the m10 in the scenario is a m10 late ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.