Observations and oddities part4

[drrowley]

My service time in the 70s’ was as FDC, which also including doing FO duties and Liaison duties; so some things’ about the game’s artillery/mortar fire missions, is very irritating. The overall way the game does call for fire, I don’t have a problem with. ‘Point target’ is just, what is called, converged sheaf. However, depending on battery width and target direction, a converged sheaf could be long in calculations. ‘Area target’; again for game purpose, I think it is fine. Depending on what you want the mission for; this could be called zone fire or narrow sheaf or open sheaf or whatever………. There was a suggestion that maybe the circles should be fixed, depending on established battery/unit width; not a bad idea. But, I would suggest that it be another command, but mission time shorter; this is because the battery/unit is firing as is. ‘Linear Target’; again…… However, this would be very complicate sheaf calculations; but, one could also call this walking the battery/unit across the target.

Picture, the panther being pummeled: it was hit 4 times out of around 24 shot. Past experience say’s that was 4 times to many or at least 3. Anyway, there was 1 hit on side armor and 3 hits on ‘forward top hull’, (also an odd grouping, 3 hits in the same place). The main question, why didn’t the hits penetrate the top armor? I have two table ‘game’ sources that said it should have.

Picture, semi good fire mission;

This mission was a somewhat successful mission. The first spotting round landed at star 1; (another round, that is rather a short hit). If I had been calling it, I would have asked for ‘left30 add300’, this would mean a slight los alignment and getting the next round the hell away from the front lines. The next spotting round fell at star 2, roughly 50 meters closer to the target. So I made a prediction of the next round and stuck my cursor around star 3; sure enough, it did land there. At this point I would have call ‘add40 ffe’, but another spotting round was shot, about 10 meters over and this time, FO did call for ‘ffe’; the ffe dispersion was fine. FO normally would not walk spotting rounds 50 meters at a time, especially if thru his lines. The FO is trying to get a bracket about the target, i.e. one long, one short at corrections at or under 50 meters, (depends what is shooting). Normally, these correction are halfed after the last call, i.e. add 400, drop 200, add 100 ect. In the above mission, given the up300, then, I ‘would walk’ the rounds 50 meters at a time back and that is because of the location of friendly troops.

So, does the lieutenant’s -2 have any effect on mission calls? There is a green dot in the mortar window, meaning good mission handling ability, correct?

In this picture, (same saved RT game ), tried firing on target area at the green star to the left. The spotting rounds landed way off target, (small red stars way to the right). So I tried ‘adjust’ command to the shown point, but the spotting rounds continued to fall to the right (small red stars). And then was heard ‘FFE, out’ followed by ‘end of mission’ after rounds fell in the large red star at right; there never was a request for FFE after ‘adjust’ mission requested. btw; I’m not sure who is saying ‘EOM, out’. If it is FDC, then that is wrong, it is the FO’s mission; he may want to continue firing on the target. ‘Sometimes’, I have seen, this continuing to fire after the command, even happens when giving a ‘Cease Fire’ command. I also don’t understand why it takes ‘cease fire’ so long. The radio command would be something like, ‘Cease Fire target# (implied EOM) , fire mission’. Yes, the cease fire would take time filtering to the battery, but FDC would be starting on the new mission. Yes, there could be rounds in the air and battery could fire before cease fire reached them; but I have had rounds landing 3 turns (wego) after sending ‘cease fire’ and the window tab say’s battery is under ‘cease fire’. This is a waste of ammo; in fact, ran the mortar section, above, out of ammo.

This picture, bad site line?

Picture shows trying to fire on linear target as shown by the green line. The numbers show the order the spotting rounds fell. On shot 3, ‘FFE, over’ was heard. On number 4 ‘FFE, over’ was again heard and then came ‘FFE, out’ was added and rounds fell as shown; dispersion looks fine, but notice its roughly 50m up from the spotting rounds. In the ‘adjusting’ mission above, FFE was again, roughly 50m from spotting rounds; which were also in a group around each other. Also, from above shot 3, if one takes the walking the spotting rounds 50m each time, would have put that shot around the target area. So it looks like, the FO thinks the shot is at the target, but FDC knows the shot isn’t? The grey line is the observers view. I would think the FO sighting would be given some sighting lee-way because of smoke, kicked up dust or even the sound of the explosion.

[Boche]

Well you did use Lt. Manning from 3rd Platoon, which for somereason is the worst commander in the unit but has become dear to me lol, and yes -2 does have quite the effect on fire missions, plus he was rattled so dont expect good fire missions from leaders in those circumstances.

[womble]

Picture, the panther being pummeled: it was hit 4 times out of around 24 shot. Past experience say’s that was 4 times to many or at least 3. Anyway, there was 1 hit on side armor and 3 hits on ‘forward top hull’, (also an odd grouping, 3 hits in the same place). The main question, why didn’t the hits penetrate the top armor? I have two table ‘game’ sources that said it should have.

What was the incoming? 81mm? I'd be surprised if that penetrated "forward top" armour on a Panther, or any fully armoured vehicle actually. "Rear top" yes, should have a decent chance.

[Fredrock1957]

What was the incoming? 81mm? I'd be surprised if that penetrated "forward top" armour on a Panther, or any fully armoured vehicle actually. "Rear top" yes, should have a decent chance.

I would think these are not direct hits but just the scatter of impact, You can take a sniper and shoot at at Panther all day, and you will see Hit Side, Hit Top, Hit etc... I have had a barrage of 105mm hit 150+ meters away from a couple of M4's who took 'Hits' but did no damage, also have peppered a PzIV with 60mm direct mortar fire and have it disable a track and immobilized it.

[womble]

I would think these are not direct hits but just the scatter of impact, You can take a sniper and shoot at at Panther all day, and you will see Hit Side, Hit Top, Hit etc... I have had a barrage of 105mm hit 150+ meters away from a couple of M4's who took 'Hits' but did no damage, also have peppered a PzIV with 60mm direct mortar fire and have it disable a track and immobilized it.

No, Top hits from artillery are generally direct hits. 105mm "rear top" hits to StuGs will take them out. Burn and bail destruction, not something I'd expect from even a near miss on the ground from HE smaller than Naval 12".

[Fredrock1957]

No, Top hits from artillery are generally direct hits. 105mm "rear top" hits to StuGs will take them out. Burn and bail destruction, not something I'd expect from even a near miss on the ground from HE smaller than Naval 12".

Sitting in those woods changes what a top hit could be... and the OP didnt say the crew even bailed... I near miss on the ground will still cause the 'Hit' text to be displayed most of the time, if it is top or not depends on the situation...If the OP is saying that the Top Hits should take out the tank, I would say 'yes' if it is a direct hit, but I believe these are not direct hits... I just put a PzV in the middle of an open field and let loose a battery of 105's and a section of 81mm mortars on it, I started the mortars a minute before the 105's... I used a 80m area attack for both with PzV sitting in the middle of it... received numerous (at least 3-5) hits on PzV, finally a 105 immobilized it, the crew did bail and was killed in 10 seconds... Will try within a wooded area, cause as you said womble Top Hits are generally direct hits, I did see only one top hit, and that made the crew bail... rest were side, front, etc, and no penetrations at all...

[Fredrock1957]

Next Test in the woods didn't change a thing so yes womble is correct, looks like Top Hits are direct hits, which means three top hits as OP stated should have done something...plus there must have been a lot of rounds falling cause I got 2 Top hits out of 92 105mm rounds and 100 81mm rounds

[drrowley]

ok, forgot, it was 105mm. If 105mm penetrates a stug, wouldn't it penetrate a panther. i have several sources on hull top armour and none agree, from 15mm to 40mm. Hit says 'front top hull' with flames showing; so direct hit?

[Statisoris]

I was playing Drrowley in that PBEM. The number of rounds ~24 and 105mm is correct. Also, I would like to confirm that all four hits were in the exact same place according to the hit text with no penetration/partial penetration or spalling armor.

[womble]

ok, forgot, it was 105mm. If 105mm penetrates a stug, wouldn't it penetrate a panther. i have several sources on hull top armour and none agree, from 15mm to 40mm. Hit says 'front top hull' with flames showing; so direct hit?

The time that sticks in my memory for the StuG killed by Arty, it was a rear top hit. I mentioned it more to demonstrate that arty rounds can detonate on the deck of a tank than for proof of pentration levels. It's possible that the front top armour is tough enough to turn a 105mm HE burst. Suspect the engine covers wouldn't be though.

I'm betting that the range of values covers different places on the top armour...

[Johnsy]

Here is a video of Fredrock1957 trying to take out my Panther with a 60mm mortar. It's like a fly buzzing around around your head. Annoying and really pisses you off, not much else.

http://youtu.be/t_K-oYIz9yo

[womble]

Here is a video of Fredrock1957 trying to take out my Panther with a 60mm mortar. It's like a fly buzzing around around your head. Annoying and really pisses you off, not much else.

http://youtu.be/t_K-oYIz9yo

Yeah, you'd hope one of those iron behemoths should be able to shrug off light stuff like that Did you check the damage status of the subsystems?

[Johnsy]

Yes, there was no damage from the ones that landed on the Panther. The one that landed on the ground cause the tracks to go to yellow damage...

[Fredrock1957]

The one that landed on the ground cause the tracks to go to yellow damage...

Serves you right pal

[siffo998]

heres a try to answer your first question:

actually some time ago i posted a statement from "von lauchert" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meinrad_von_Lauchert)

out of the book "germanys panther tank" from Thomas Jentz. The statement was made in a operational report about the first performance of the panther tank at the eastern front.

The statement is on page 133 in the book:

"The Panther is basically invulnerable to artillery fire. However direct hits of caliber 150mm on the roof of the hull and turret had the effect of deforming the armor and causing internal damage."

So i see no real problem with the situation. According to this statement from someone who really should know about the performance of the panther... no damage should be done to the panther by small caliber artillery hits. Also keep in mind that HE shells have no real penetration capability.

[c3k]

What about the damage to running gear by near misses of 60mm mortars?

[Fredrock1957]

This happened a few minutes ago in a play test, sort of fits the thread.

[drrowley]

forgot also to mention, panther crew totally recovered, 15 seconds after the last round hit.

if 'top rear' means engine compartment; maybe(!)(?) siffo's find has got me wondering about this stuff. I have 'one' source that say's american 105mm he has 45mm penetration at 90 degrees and 14 tons of lift.

i parked a panther next to some hidden troops and it was barraged by grenades; and become immobilized. I have heard (legend?), that a well place grenade would break a track. I always wondered if a grenade could do that. a 60mm mortar is just an over grown grenade. to break a track, 'I' would believe it would have to hit it.