SlowMotion Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I thought tanks were supposed to use MG mainly for aiming purposes when firing at other tanks. They would first see that MG firing hits the target and then use the main gun. In a game I'm playing my PzIV used its MG 3 times against a Sherman. Every burst hit the target. After this the Sherman spotted my tank, rotated its turret, used the main gun and destroyed the PzIV. Why wasn't my tank using its main gun ASAP if the first MG burst hit the target already???? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Do you have save you can send me? I'll take a look at the behavior and file a bug report if necessary. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 A possible cause is LOS issues. If your IV's hull MG could see the target, it would fire, even if the turret was obscured (by some tree branches, perhaps). LOS/LOF is not always reciprocal (that is, just because one can see the other, it doesn't necessarily follow that the other can see the first), and it is calculated for each component of a unit. Shouldn't be the case for coax weapons though; can you tell which MG is actually firing? If it is a LOS thing, you might be able to tell from the crew status messages in the bottom left of the game screen. If there's a flaky LOS for a gun, the controller's status will sometimes wobble about between "aiming", "rotating", "elevating", "firing", even though "firing" never actually happens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 Maybe it's this LOS then. When the PzIV stopped moving and soon spotted the Sherman, it rotated the main gun towards the enemy - if it didn't see it, how could it correctly change rotation and elevation? Gunner's status then changes between aiming and firing. But it always uses the hull MG for firing, not the main gun. If the main gun cannot fire, wouldn't it make sense to pop smoke, reverse to cover if possible or something instead of opening fire with a weapon which cannot destroy the tank and causes the enemy to spot my tank? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Maybe it's this LOS then. When the PzIV stopped moving and soon spotted the Sherman, it rotated the main gun towards the enemy - if it didn't see it, how could it correctly change rotation and elevation? Gunner's status then changes between aiming and firing. But it always uses the hull MG for firing, not the main gun. If the main gun cannot fire, wouldn't it make sense to pop smoke, reverse to cover if possible or something instead of opening fire with a weapon which cannot destroy the tank and causes the enemy to spot my tank? Looks like you're caught between a LOS rock and a LOF hard place. The turret probably rotated because the commander can see the target (his viewpoint is assumed to be higher than the gun), but the gun can't find a LOF, even though the hull MG can. Very unlucky; Don't think anyone's reported getting caught on such a fine distinction as that before. Usually, it's the commander can see it and calls for fire, but none of the weapons can get LOF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 But how on earth can it be that commander can see the target, hull MG can see the target, but the main gun between those 2 cannot? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 But how on earth can it be that commander can see the target, hull MG can see the target, but the main gun between those 2 cannot? Foliage. Smoke. Both those things have vertical variability in what you can see through 'em. It's entirely possible none of those things apply, and you've caught a wrinkle in the code, but I'm just suggesting edge-condition possibilities that might mean it's no bug. Is there foliage involved in the targetting solution? Ooo. Just thought: it might be that the hull gunner spotted the target, and the commander trusted his crewman and had the turret point that way, only to find overhanging branches blocking his and the gunner's optics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 I've sent the file for investigations, let's see what they think. But: I still think that if some members of the tank crew know that there is an enemy tank straight ahead and the main gun cannot be used, it would be better to retreat than start a tank duel with MG only. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I've sent the file for investigations, let's see what they think. But: I still think that if some members of the tank crew know that there is an enemy tank straight ahead and the main gun cannot be used, it would be better to retreat than start a tank duel with MG only. Oh, certainly. I think the AI's threat assessment needs a little bit of work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 I think in such a situation when a tank can't fire for several seconds, and comes into "elevating, aiming, firing, elevating, aiming, firing" loop, the AI should drive a little forward at slow speed untill they get a clear LOS for gunner, and if this doesnt' help, then pop smoke and reverse or just reverse out of sight of the enemy. In RT games the player can micromanage that himself, but in WEGO the tank crew is on it's own, tank gunner can do the "aiming loop" for a full 60s turn, and the player can do nothing with that. So there should be an AI alghoritm to handle such situations, just as they are handled in real life - change the position a bit - "Hans, move a bit forward please....". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 heh ive had panthers dance arround for more than a minute when they had some 4 or 5 tanks at which to choose from, kept truning the turrent and hull left to right to left to right, rotating turnning aiming etc etc... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted September 4, 2011 Author Share Posted September 4, 2011 In this case there was just one tank, right in front of the turret, maybe 200m away. So the crew didn't have to pick the most dangerous threat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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