Enemy mortars effectiveness

[ss11955]

Is it normal for enemy mortars to be SO effective in this game ? They bash the s*** out of my troops until I "cheat" and LOCATE them by 1-save game and then 2- the cease fire and map location method. This game is a tremendously engrossing,immersing game !!!!!!!! Jim

[Michael Emrys]

If you want, you can do what I do. It's time-consuming and is also a cheat, but what the hell? If I know an enemy gun or MG is firing and my troops haven't spotted the firer, I use "sound ranging". (This only works in WEGO, BTW.) I move the camera over to the enemy's side of the map and replay the move over and over again while shifting the camera location and listening carefully. When the sound of the gun/mortar is loudest, I know I've found the spot. A bit of indirect area fire will usually make the problem go away. It's a fair amount of work and not for those in a hurry. It's also pretty unrealistic. But the fact is, I enjoy doing it and CM is a game I play for fun.

Michael

[womble]

Is it normal for enemy mortars to be SO effective in this game ? They bash the s*** out of my troops until I "cheat" and LOCATE them by 1-save game and then 2- the cease fire and map location method. This game is a tremendously engrossing,immersing game !!!!!!!! Jim

You have to run away from them when you see spotting roungs... It's the only way to have a chance. And if they've got a chokepoint TRPed, your chances get slimmer... Against the AI, it's probably worth bearing in mind that it's not likely to be firing missions at where it thinks you will be. So you've a better chance of surviving if you can advance out from under the spotting rounds than if you run backwards, cos the AI probably will be shooting at where you were, if it's not shooting at where you are. And it's not always easy to tell from the spotting rounds quite where the AI intends the mission to fire for effect.

[Vinnart]

I have to say that I think the arty is a bit too overpowering compared to CMSF from what I experience with the demo. Is it me or is arty more deadly in CMBN than in CMSF? One round takes out most of a squad because the guys are spaced too close together in the open. The only work around is to split teams and move guys that way from what I have found, but this adds micromanagement and make C2 a bit precarious. One round taking out a whole squad just isn't too much fun. I know the realist purist will say a wargame shouldn't be fun it should be real. In reality though spacing between men would be more flexible.

Some thoughts on solutions to this dilemma in future builds of the game: Perhaps action spots that are smaller. The Sudden Strike 3 engine used the concept of one tile scale of the size of 1 man. I believe it was 3x3 scaled meters. One tile = one action spot =size of one man laying prone = one terrain tile. To deal with spacing between men the game had a scatter command which spread the individuals x amount of tiles each time the command is given. If such a direction were to be taken in future builds of the game then formations, and spacing flexibility commands would be more possible IMO. Grant it depending on the terrain troops will naturally have to be close together such as ina building or crowding behind a section of wall, but in other an interval of desired tile spacing between each man would fit into such a system. Instead of 3 large squares highlight as action spots one would see 12 smaller squares representing each man.

Here is a shot of that engine showing the underlying grid in a game concept I envisioned for that engine. In essence from what I can see RTS type games are at their core an animated board game with an underlying tile system like squares on a chess board.

[Peregrine]

If you want, you can do what I do. It's time-consuming and is also a cheat, but what the hell? If I know an enemy gun or MG is firing and my troops haven't spotted the firer, I use "sound ranging". (This only works in WEGO, BTW.) I move the camera over to the enemy's side of the map and replay the move over and over again while shifting the camera location and listening carefully. When the sound of the gun/mortar is loudest, I know I've found the spot. A bit of indirect area fire will usually make the problem go away. It's a fair amount of work and not for those in a hurry. It's also pretty unrealistic. But the fact is, I enjoy doing it and CM is a game I play for fun.

Michael

Lol. Shamelessy gamey.

[Michael Emrys]

Shamelessy...

You omitted an 'l' in "shamelessly".

Michael

[womble]

One round takes out most of a squad...

Even with teams combined into squads (or a continuous line of teams) I've not seen that many casualties from one round. One round can do enough damage to make a Squad panic, yes, even if the damage to individual teams in that squad wouldn't make all of the teams panic...

...because the guys are spaced too close together in the open...

In the flat open, average spacing can be 4m between troops, which isn't that far from the 5m minimum I think is a general 'standard'. And blast is nerfed a bit to compensate.

The only work around is to split teams and move guys that way from what I have found, but this adds micromanagement and make C2 a bit precarious.

It also spreads your platoon out and makes it a bigger target.

One round taking out a whole squad just isn't too much fun.

It really must've been a biggie, though, and you shouldn't see it very often.

Some thoughts on solutions to this dilemma in future builds of the game: Perhaps action spots that are smaller.

That'd make things worse since teams can't voluntarily split across action spots. So you'd have to code that in too, and action spots wouldn't be action spots any more. It's a low level functionality change in the engine. You'd have to add controls for the player to manage the team's dispersion.

If you halve the size of the action spots you multiply the work that needs doing by 4. If you allow teams to spread across 2 AS, you double it again. That's very nearly an order of magnitude more processing. My rig is fairly hefty, but it takes more than 6s to process turns on large maps. RT would become impracticable for very nearly everyone.

[ss11955]

Thanks for all the info -guys. Further question could use help on---how do you know if an incoming barrage is generated by an OFF MAP enemy Art/Mtr unit ? Jim

[Michael Emrys]

...how do you know if an incoming barrage is generated by an OFF MAP enemy Art/Mtr unit ?

Again, if you play in WEGO you can move the camera around during replay and listen for the muzzle blast. If you don't hear any, it must be off-map.

Michael

[sburke]

Again, if you play in WEGO you can move the camera around during replay and listen for the muzzle blast. If you don't hear any, it must be off-map.

Michael

Umm that is umm sound ranging, yeah that's it! Not gamey at all! cough cough

[StellarRat]

Hey you can do some OK sound ranging with two guys, a couple tin cans, a pair of compasses and a map.

[Rex J.]

how do you know if an incoming barrage is generated by an OFF MAP enemy Art/Mtr unit ? Jim

On map artillery/mortar rounds don't trigger an "incoming artillery" wav file before they land. So if you hear that roar or whistle before the shells land, then you know it's from off map guns.

[ss11955]

On map artillery/mortar rounds don't trigger an "incoming artillery" wav file before they land. So if you hear that roar or whistle before the shells land, then you know it's from off map guns.

Rex--For a dumbo like me could you amplify/simplify your info-what is "wav file" Thanks. ---Michael---thank you for info ! Jim

[c3k]

"wav file" refers to the suffix after a file name. For example, something like "explosion002.wav" would probably be the name for an explosion file. The "wav" suffix indicates it is an audio file. Meaning, the computer needs to access that file to make the sound you hear. If you don't like the sound, you could replace the contents of that file with a sound you like better.

Summary: "wav" files contain sounds.

Rex J.'s statement means that offboard artilley makes a specific sound before they impact. It is the rushing through air sound. That sound is accessed by the game by using a wav file. He is saying that on-board weapons do not make that sound.

A bit more about files below:

All the various sounds and graphics in the game are accessed by looking at specific files. This is the heart of modifying your game. If you hate the sound of clanking tank treads but love the sound of kittens meowing, you could mod your files. Find the "tank track clanking.wav" file (or whatever it's called). Make a recording of a kitten meowing. Save it as a wav file; "kitten meowing.wav". Rename the "tank track clanking.wav" to something else (to save it for later), say "tank track clanking.old".

Rename "kitten meowing.wav" to "tank track clanking.wav" and put it where the old one came from. Now, whenever the game decides you should hear tank tracks clanking, it will access that sound file. You will hear kittens meowing as your tanks advance.

[YankeeDog]

You will hear kittens meowing as your tanks advance.

And your opponent's hamstertruppen will tremble with fear.

[Michael Emrys]

So if you hear that roar or whistle before the shells land, then you know it's from off map guns.

But do you hear it from off-map mortars? You shouldn't because mortar bombs are more streamlined (most of the calibers, anyway) and travel at a lower velocity.

Michael

[Rex J.]

But do you hear it from off-map mortars? You shouldn't because mortar bombs are more streamlined (most of the calibers, anyway) and travel at a lower velocity.

Michael

Shouldn't, but nevertheless do. So far I haven't noticed any exceptions. All on map guns produce no incoming artillery sound. All off map guns – including 60mm and 80mm mortars – do produce an incoming artillery sound prior to the explosion.

On a side note, the idea of replacing all the incoming artillery wav files with wav files of cats meowing is awfully tempting.

[ss11955]

Thanks again guys--Rex J. and Michael for info. As for c3k--- i apologize for having you waste your time and effort to explain "wav" ---i am PC tech ignorant (too lazy,too old) to get into ( modifying,editing,videoing etc.)-- to start. I just thoroughly enjoy playing single player PC Strategy type games.

[LeeW]

We have heard of tree bursts and how they make arty shells more effective. I've learned another lesson, that a shell falling in gravel along a stream makes for alot of flying missiles and casualties. That stream bed may look like good cover but is a death trap when the arty shells fall in there.

I wonder if rough ground with lots of rocks and such has the same effect?

[Michael Emrys]

All off map guns – including 60mm and 80mm mortars – do produce an incoming artillery sound prior to the explosion.

Okay, good to know. Thanks.

Michael

[LJFHutch]

Is this post patch? I've never had any trouble with evading mortars or any artillery for that matter, you usually get a few minutes of warning time which gives you more than enough time to relocate. The AI even used a pre-planned US rocket barrage on me once which racked up a whopping 10 or so casualties.

- and you guys are so gamey

[womble]

Is this post patch? I've never had any trouble with evading mortars or any artillery for that matter, you usually get a few minutes of warning time which gives you more than enough time to relocate. The AI even used a pre-planned US rocket barrage on me once which racked up a whopping 10 or so casualties.

- and you guys are so gamey

You often get plenty of warning, but it's sometimes too vague to be of any use. I've had situations where the spotting rounds killed truppen, so I scarpered sharpish-like and when the FFE came in, it was right on top of where I'd run to, 100m further back.

[Michael Emrys]

And on-map mortars often give no warning at all. The first hint that trouble is brewing is when the rounds start dropping right on your men. I had an most of an entire platoon get hacked up pretty badly that way in my last game. Those not killed or wounded outright were pinned and couldn't have gotten away. Luckily for me, a tank on another part of the map was able to dispatch the mortar at the beginning of the next turn.

Michael