The London Riots...

[Spinoza]

Bigduke6 ,are you not reincarnation of Nestor Makhno . by any chance ? f so , just give me the sign. I will be there , Bat'ko..

[JonS]

As an outsider sitting here watching the [pick-any-western] government be compared with Middle Eastern autocracies, I have to ask: isn't the [pick-any-western] government elected? Are the suppressed "masses" not allowed to participate in the political process? Are the government's policies not supported by the majority of the [pick-any-western] population? How is this kleptocracy able to perpetuate its hold on power election after election?

Not to defend the British ruling elite, but that paragraph works almost regardless of who you point it at.

[JonS]

The Lords is, in the end, an advisory body. It has become almost impossible for them to force any changes to legislation on the Government. A lot of good work goes on there, though. Could do with some reform, but none of the options presented by the political parties are attractive to me, since they just seek to entrench the power of the political parties, creating a mirror of the Commons which would serve no purpose whatsoever. I believe we need a non-partisan 'Upper House' with its members selected in very different ways to those we use to select MPs. A mixture of elections where the population are divided other than geographically (age, maybe), as well as by geographical divisions other than the current boundaries (counties rather than boroughs, say), as well as appointments by eminent bodies other than the Government - Trades Unions and other professional bodies, Charities, the Armed Forces, the Police. Judges need to be there. Academia needs representation.

The thing I like about the House of Lords is that it contains people of the calibre of Professor Robert Lord Winston. I think it is very unlikely that he would become a formal part of the govt via an election, even assuming he chose to put himself through that process.

[dieseltaylor]

I do argue constantly that the Lords as was - was the better Chamber for actual thinking and debate. However Brown and Cameron have loaded it with ex-politicians fatally diluting what was special. However of course being unelected now perhaps those MP's will be better without a party whip being enforceable.

However getting the intelligent, and the diligent selected from the general population to provide the functionality of the Upper Chamber would be so so much better.

[Bigduke6]

Well no obviously, WIKI informs me he invented the horse-drawn heavy MG, I'm not nearly that clever.

As to the class war angle, it's interesting. Makhno has gone down in history as an anarchist so rabid he couldn't get along with the Bolsheviks, a loose cannon whipping up the peasant rabble to take over property of slightly richer peasants. One of the few guys Lenin was justified in sending Cheka hit squads out to hunt him down (for all the good it did them - that's more or less the conventional wisdom on Makhno.

Yet if you look at what was motivating him, and more importantly what made him such a political force during the Russian Civil War period, I would say it comes down to two thing: a sense of what is unfair and an ability to communicate that to others.

The Makhno line was, basically, "There are a whole lot of you poor and the wealthy are screwing you and your children and if you let them they will continue forever. Don't stand for it! Nowhere is it written, only the rich may use force and violence to obtain and hold property. If the rich want to let your children die in destitution and will use the army and police to keep you in your place, then all bets are off."

This is a very appealing line to pitch to any person thinking he is a "have not", and the more ossified the society, the better this song plays. The bottom line is that people are people no matter where they are on the socio-economic pyramid, and if too much wealth gets concentrated in the hands of too few people at the top, and there is no way for people in the middle or the bottom to leave their miserable state, then the whole pyramid risks collapse.

Therefore, the argument goes, it behooves the "haves" to make sure the "have nots" have at least a basic standard of living and opportunity of raising themselves higher, because if they do not sooner or later some one like Makhno comes along and leads raids by masses of poor people to loot rich peoples' property just maybe kill the rich owners. You can't ignore the social contract indefinitely. Unless you have a hugely growing economy, trickle-down just isn't enough to keep a lid on the angry poor people. It is not a question of whether the rich will give up some of their wealth to the poor, but rather, whether they will give it up voluntarily or at the point of a gun.

Certainly, this way of thinking really could put a damper on free enterprise and accumulation of wealth, which even Marx agreed was the basic engine that made economies stronger and so created the material necessary to improve every one's lives, not just the wealthy. North Korea is not exactly a giant magnet for foreign investment, and if you let the Makhnos of the world do whatever they please, unchecked, they will strip an economy like a horde of locusts. No question.

But if you are a poor person with no work, sick kids suffering from malnutrition, relatives dead from tuberculosis, and then some rich people in nice clothes come and tell you you are going to have to sacrifice for the nation, you may very well disagree. And if some one like Makhno comes along and says, essentially, "This is nuts, there are tons of you and only a few of them, they live well and you terribly, you sacrifice and they don't. Why put up with it? What do you owe these people? Have they given YOU a fair shake?"

That kind of argument can be very appealing, to a lot of people. And thus the glue holding society together fails, worker turns against manager, the red banner of revolution goes up, etc. etc. you get the point. A society perceived by most of its members as essentially unfair is inherently unstable, and if the house of cards goes the haves are the ones that will be found guilty. No matter what Adam Smith said.

Bigduke6 ,are you not reincarnation of Nestor Makhno . by any chance ? f so , just give me the sign. I will be there , Bat'ko..

[Tero]

By Vanir Ausf B

As an outsider sitting here watching the British government be compared with Middle Eastern autocracies, I have to ask: isn't the British government elected? Are the suppressed "masses" not allowed to participate in the political process?

What has that got to do with the way the haves suppress and oppress economically the have-nots ? If anything it makes the transgressions of the people in power worse than the actions of dictators as they abuse the political power to further the common good (supposedly) given by the people they abuse.

Are the government's policies not supported by the majority of the British population?

That is a good guestion. Here in Finland the last election showed how a moderately acting party with an agenda close to the views and opinions of the "silent majority" conserning things like immigration can rally enough votes to destabilize system enough to cause a panic among the ruling class.

How is this kleptocracy able to perpetuate its hold on power election after election?

With the help of middle class people like you who buy the media hype and disregard the bigger picture conserning social equity and distribution of wealth until the lower classes get sick of falling through the cracks in the system and take the laws into their own hands.

[Tero]

By dieseltaylor

I disagree Tero. The reaction of Cameron is to illustrate what a wanker he is to the general public. I do not see any special laws being brought in from this and I am hopeful that people will realise that policing needs to be freer of politicians.

The really dangerous part is just that. If it does not take any new laws to strangle the flow of information between individuals AND to track down their devices they carry what do you think is the next step ? How does one define a terror regime ?

It also has reminded people in general that without police anarchy is not far away.

How much looting took place in Japan after the tsunami when the entire infrastucture in the not directly affected area was seriously hampered and there was no police to guard the bussinesses still standing ?

[Tero]

By Bigduke6

North Korea is not exactly a giant magnet for foreign investment, and if you let the Makhnos of the world do whatever they please, unchecked, they will strip an economy like a horde of locusts. No question.

What about China ? They subscribe to the same credos the NK leadership, right ? Yet COMMUNIST China is practically the sole powerhouse now running the entire Western capitalist system.

But if you are a poor person with no work, sick kids suffering from malnutrition, relatives dead from tuberculosis, and then some rich people in nice clothes come and tell you you are going to have to sacrifice for the nation, you may very well disagree.

Very true. What is more people are not stupid. If the ruling class increases taxation and decrease the level or social services while at the same time the businesses are shutting down and moving to China the basis of the consumer society is crumbling at the base of the system. If you strip the consumers their buying power there is no means to consume. Thinking globally is not for the masses if they can not act locally OR they do not have any say in local affairs.

A society perceived by most of its members as essentially unfair is inherently unstable, and if the house of cards goes the haves are the ones that will be found guilty. No matter what Adam Smith said.

The historical life cycle of a social systems seems to be winding down as fast as the life expectancy of your cheapo electronics produced in China.

[dieseltaylor]

I am very much against social devices like Facebook and Twitter as they are effectively a spying tool for the security services. If it were EU based I might feel more happy but this is effectively US domination of the information. And as we know the Patriot Act has never fully been explained as to its reach. However I think it logical that all Facebook and Twitter items are read instantly by interested State parties currently. And the US and UK are very close.

Japan is probably, along with Finland and North Korea, one of the most homogenised societies and has strong moral purpose. London is I believe 40% foreign though the foreign part - excluding Somalian gangsters and Rumanian gypsies probably more law abiding than the natives. However it may be the very diversity and competition for jobs that has made society breakdown in London sufficient for the riots.

The revelations on the corrupted police by News International, the complicity and corruption of politicians, and the freedom of Bankers to fly above the law whilst ruining the economy have certainly moved UK societies views on what the two main parties are good for .... nothing. [War?] : )

I am amazed that the US is as it is but then everyone believes - until too late - that they too can be a millionnaire. Or even have a comfortable retirement. The Wisconsin battles seem to be revealing some very entrenched lines and in a winner take-all Presidency the next election is going to be hugely significant.

[JonS]

I am amazed that the US is as it is but then everyone believes - until too late - that they too can be a millionnaire.

Not everyone.

[dieseltaylor]

Yep, I read the article and thought at the time that using students as a proxy for mankind in general is rather a notion that perhaps needs to be examined in the light of modern science, and commonsense. : )

Male brains are not fully developed until around 20. Incidentally it is also new news that in fact the editing of synapses is continuing for men and women into their twenties.

However the article if carefully examined only says the lowest group bar one was likely to take this action so I am not convinced this makes a significant figure in the wider workforce. However I may be wrong as I am not familiar with how many are affected by the Pew research - and whether that in itself was flawed by only addressing those who fell into the just over minimum wage bracket. The Economist article was a tad naughty in this respect.

I suppose what might be working against "revolution" is the good old standby of "bread and circuses" which the US is amply endowed.

[Vanir Ausf B]

By Vanir Ausf B

What has that got to do with the way the haves suppress and oppress economically the have-nots ?

Are you under the impression that economics and politics are completely separate from one another? They are in fact intimately intertwined. That's what it has to do with it.

With the help of middle class people like you who buy the media hype and disregard the bigger picture conserning social equity and distribution of wealth until the lower classes get sick of falling through the cracks in the system and take the laws into their own hands.

I buy the "media hype" and disregard the bigger picture? What exactly led you to that conclusion?

I'll tell you what I think is a bigger problem than people like me. People who don't know what they're talking about but spout-off anyway.

[Vanir Ausf B]

How much looting took place in Japan after the tsunami when the entire infrastucture in the not directly affected area was seriously hampered and there was no police to guard the bussinesses still standing ?

Japan has a different society.

Since the March earthquake and tsunami that leveled much of Japan, thousands of wallets containing a total of $48 million in cash have washed ashore -- and been turned in, ABC reports. In addition, 5,700 safes containing $30 million in cash also have turned up.

Ryuji Ito, professor emeritus at Japan's Yokohama City University, tells the Daily Mail that these acts of integrity are simply reflective of the culture:

"...The fact that a hefty 2.3 billion yen in cash has been returned to its owners shows the high level of ethical awareness in the Japanese people."

Link

What about China ? They subscribe to the same credos the NK leadership, right ? Yet COMMUNIST China is practically the sole powerhouse now running the entire Western capitalist system.

That's right, China the Communist powerhouse.

"The major reform achievement has been in privatizing state enterprises. The private sector accounts for 70% of gross domestic product. There are 200 large state companies -- basically, they are in utilities, some in heavy industries, some in resource industries. Traditionally, this is where governments have invested.

China Mobil and China Telecom are huge, but these are natural monopolies. Even France and Britain had those large state companies for a long time. If you take these away, China is a private-sector economy."

-- Chinese economist Fan Gang

Same as North Korea!

[costard]

Not everyone.

JonS, I went and had a look at the draft for that paper: it is a total crock of **** as far as a genuine intellectual exercise is concerned (seriously, go and have a look at the experiment design). That "The Economist" would print their version of the results is just par for the course. That a university in the US would credit these folk with having contributed to the sum total of human knowledge with this... excrement of a paper is beyond belief. Thanks for the link.

[Bigduke6]

What about China ? They subscribe to the same credos the NK leadership, right ? Yet COMMUNIST China is practically the sole powerhouse now running the entire Western capitalist system.

No, and if you want to see whether democracy has anything to do with attracting investment, you need look no further than China. True China's rulers use police tactics in part to "keep the lid on", but far more important is just the country's expanding economy. Since the government is authoritarian it can take a big cut of that expansion and divert it to things people can see and that legitimately make their lives better: improved roads, rail, purpose-built cities, better health facilities, impressive military (get the geek vote!), nice sidewalks (approved by young women yearning to wear nice shoes) and so on.

It is undeniable the standard of living in China for most has improved steadily for decades. That buys stability even if the Comparty bosses are skimming and building palaces and financing multiple mistresses and so forth.

The question is, can China sustain that growth, that expansion of the pie forever? I personally tend to doubt it. From maybe 1945 - 1970 the Americans were supposed to have a great economic model that guaranteed wealth and plenty for all. Now it's pretty clear that's history.

The Japanese about 1975 - 1990 were supposed to be the world winners, remember when they were buying up Manhattan and making everything better and cheaper than the West? Then it turned out they had big production costs and actually their zaibatsu industrial cooperation with government wasn't brilliant planning, it was just good old corruption. Or maybe countries who have a good living because they sit on mineral wealth, you know, the Saudis and the Australians and people like that. Who ever heard of an industrial commodity whose price went up forever? What happens when the price, which has been going up for a long time, heads the other direction?

In China already there is plenty evidence of overconstruction and waste and inefficient government - and that's just what we see, the average Chinese see an order of magnitude more, they live with it day in and day out. If European and US orders for consumer goods stay down and energy prices stay up, just how are China's leaders supposed to maintain continued economic expansion? Is China's police force, heck, is any army in the world, up to the prospect of a Chinese work force sick and tired of crappy wages, rising prices, and Communist party officials poncing about in Mercedes and Rolls Royces?

It might last quite a while, but I really doubt forever.

[Vanir Ausf B]

It might last quite a while, but I really doubt forever.

Correct, and for some of the same reasons Japan never took over the world.

By 2013 China’s demographic dividend growth rate will turn negative: That is, the growth rate of net consumers will exceed the growth rate of net producers. Starting in 2013, such a negative growth rate will reduce the country’s economic growth rate by at least half a percentage point per year. Between 2013 and 2050, China will not fare demographically much better than Japan or Taiwan, and will fare much worse than the United States and France.

As a result of China’s very low fertility over the past two decades, the abundance of young, inexpensive labor is soon to be history. The number of workers aged 20 to 29 will stay about the same for the next few years, but a precipitous drop will begin in the middle of the coming decade. Over a 10-year period, between 2016 and 2026, the size of the population in this age range will be reduced by about one-quarter, to 150 million from 200 million. For Chinese aged 20 to 24, that decline will come sooner and will be more drastic: Over the next decade, their number will be reduced by nearly 50 percent, to 68 million from 125 million.

Such a drastic decline in the young labor force will usher in, for the first time in recent Chinese history, successive shrinking cohorts of labor force entrants. It will also have profound consequences for labor productivity, since the youngest workers are the most recently educated and the most innovative.

-- Feng Wang

[Michael Emrys]

Not everyone.

That confirms something that I began noticing a couple of decades ago, that the people who most vociferously oppose giving aid to the very poor are the not-quite-as-poor: i.e., the lower middle class. One hears the words "I had to work for mine" spoken angrily, as if that were the answer to everything.

Michael

[Tero]

By dieseltaylor

I suppose what might be working against "revolution" is the good old standby of "bread and circuses" which the US is amply endowed.

Except the "bread" the masses can afford is infecting them with among other things type 2 diabetes and circuses are funded by ad campaigns depicting goods and services the masses can not afford. They will eventually have to come up with a new strategy to maintain peace and status quo.

[Tero]

By Vanir Ausf B

Are you under the impression that economics and politics are completely separate from one another? They are in fact intimately intertwined. That's what it has to do with it.

Are you under the impression the form of goverment corresponds with the level of "evility" of the government and the evil within the system correponds with the way it collects and distributes tax revenue ? In ancient world the rulers were only as good as the circuses they threw and the amount of bread they distributed. Once they twindeled the masses revolted. What makes you think the capitalists will last much longer than communists now that the communists have been outconsumed and there is nothing but the ruling class to compare with when it comes to the wealth of the masses ?

I buy the "media hype" and disregard the bigger picture? What exactly led you to that conclusion?

Don't take it personally. The middle class has the most to lose when things go tits up. That is why they are the most vocal proponents for preserving the status quo and the prime target for appeacement by the government in power.

I'll tell you what I think is a bigger problem than people like me. People who don't know what they're talking about but spout-off anyway.

I can still go walking in my home town at night and not be concerned about being robbed or killed no matter which part of town I'm walking. Can you ?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Are you under the impression the form of goverment corresponds with the level of "evility" of the government and the evil within the system correponds with the way it collects and distributes tax revenue ? In ancient world the rulers were only as good as the circuses they threw and the amount of bread they distributed. Once they twindeled the masses revolted.

That wasn't what I was asking. What I was asking, in essence, is why they don't vote the bums out. The other people who replied to my questions had no problem understanding the relevance.

What makes you think the capitalists will last much longer than communists now that the communists have been outconsumed and there is nothing but the ruling class to compare with when it comes to the wealth of the masses ?

What is the alternative?

I can still go walking in my home town at night and not be concerned about being robbed or killed no matter which part of town I'm walking. Can you ?

Yes, of course. I do it all the time. Why would you think I couldn't?

[Tero]

By Vanir Ausf B

Japan has a different society.

What makes it different ? What makes the Western societies so decandent that an opportunity will turn most members to robbers ? (AFAIK there has been a marked change in this in the last 50 years.)

That's right, China the Communist powerhouse.

You left out the part "running the capitalist system". And that is important bit.

Same as North Korea!

What makes them different, in essense, apart from the sheer size ? The Chinese society is by no means an open or free society.

[Tero]

By Bigduke6

No, and if you want to see whether democracy has anything to do with attracting investment, you need look no further than China.

What makes it attractive to investment, apart from the cheap and docile labour force ?

It might last quite a while, but I really doubt forever.

Forever is not needed. Only as long as it takes to plundge the Western workforce to such a level the companies can start manufacturing goods cheaply and without too much regard for such superfluous things like safety regulations. Provided the system lasts and the planet can take it that long of course.

[Tero]

By Vanir Ausf B

Correct, and for some of the same reasons Japan never took over the world.

....

-- Feng Wang

What are Feng Wangs remidies to that development ? Has there been considered things like automation and improved working conditions for this diminishing work force ? Or is the movement of the industries to low labour cost areas the only solution to this "problem" ?

The way I see it the core problem is the fact the markets can not function if it is based on ever expanding market and the regulation of manufacturing costs are based on labour force cost while maintaining the continuously increasing profit margin for the owners. At some point the markets will simply cease to exist because the mass consumption of goods can not happen as the majority of the population simply can not afford to buy even the cheapestly produced product.

[Vanir Ausf B]

What makes it different ? What makes the Western societies so decandent that an opportunity will turn most members to robbers ? (AFAIK there has been a marked change in this in the last 50 years.)

Bushido is my guess.

You left out the part "running the capitalist system". And that is important bit.

That was, in fact, my whole point.

What makes them different, in essense, apart from the sheer size ?

China is Communist in name only, that is the difference. The means of production is primarily privatized.

[Tero]

By Vanir Ausf B

That wasn't what I was asking. What I was asking, in essence, is why they don't vote the bums out. The other people who replied to my questions had no problem understanding the relevance.

What makes you think the problem is solved by replacing the bums with other bums ? When was the last time in recent history a change brought on by a peaceful democratic election of the government brought about a real change in the life of masses ?

What is the alternative?

I think that is the guestion we are trying to answer here. We all think rioting and looting is not the proper solution for the problem. By the same token I think political will has to be able to overrule the "economical imperatives" if the Western society and culture is to survive without violent upheaval. That means that stripping down the government run services funded by tax revenues is detrimental to the development of the Western society. Unless of course the planned development is not what we are being led to believe.

Yes, of course. I do it all the time. Why would you think I couldn't?

Sorry, I forgot you live in the middle of the desert.