vulnerability to artillery

[winkelried]

i currently work on a scenario where i have quite good historical data on the outcome, rounds fired, losses etc - the map is designed pretty much 1:1 from historical photos and accounts.

with playtesting i see now that the losses due to artillery fire are much bigger than they were in reality (at least a factor of 10).

i have to reduce the artillery ammo to ridicule levels to even get close to similar loss-levels. i am not sure what influences my results. seems to me that missing basements is one thing, then foxholes provide relatively weak cover (i don't talk about airbursts) and the overall vulnerability against artillery seems to be too high.

any feedback from the BF guys? or other scenario designers?

[womble]

How much of the artillery's in-game effectiveness is due to 'knowing' what is supposed to happen? A difficult question to answer, but it's true that replaying historical battles with knowledge of the result can lead to very different results, as each player avoids historical mistakes and makes their own brand new ones.

Are we talking "B section behind the bocage sustained 100 rounds of 81mm mortar within 2 minutes fire and sustained 2 KIA and 4 WIA" being turned into "B section behind the bocage were all dead after the first 10 rounds of 81mm near their position?

One thing I think makes a big difference is the quality of your arty and of your observers. I'm expecting, once I go back and have a look at 'School of Hard Knocks' starting German setup, that their arty wing will be crack/elite cos they're dropping sheafs in 10m radii (it's like they've got laser designators. That can go through the terrain :-/ )where mine are nearer 40.

[winkelried]

Quality is a good point - i usually have regular or green, leader quality is -1 or -2. I fully agree on your point of the coincidential observation. nevertheless I found this behaviour in all 7 battles I created for my campaign - and the behaviour is quite consistent in the re-runs - and the difference is striking. although some variability exists - e.g. the barrage going somewhere completely different.

btw. there is a workaround: less tubes with less ammo.

[winkelried]

and speaking of figures: i have the U.S. with 22 KIA, 88 WIA, 29 MIA over a period of 72 hours the Germans with 200 KIA, 500 WIA and 200 POW (KTB: 943 for a total). When I now see 100 KIA for the U.S. in one single battle this is a lot more than expected for the whole period. There are less intense battles in the campaign, but there too losses are somewhat higher, than you would expect.

[gunnergoz]

You are not telling us enough about the circumstances you are describing to convey a sense of whether this is off or not. Where are the troops being targeted by the US artillery? In what kind of cover or positions? You mentioned foxholes and basements so I assume it is a mixed urban setting.

You also indicate you have a good idea of how many rounds were fired but do you know anything about the fuzing (ground impact, delayed action, air burst, etc) in the historical barrage? It sounds like the actual battle you are attempting to portray had a lot of decent cover which sheltered the real troops from the artillery most of the time.

If you are seeing many more casualties in your game than there were historically, it could well be that you are not simulating the cover sufficiently well, not merely that the artillery effectiveness is excessive. And we know that the game engine at present is limited in its ability to represent hardened, prepared defenses and built up urban terrain.

As for US losses, the same issue may apply with the issue of cover being adequately represented or not.

I think you may have to run a lot of trial games to see if these figures average out differently, since any one game may represent an outlier.

[winkelried]

you're probably right that the issue within the village is more a cover issue than an effectivness issue - i'll check for the fuze type, but in the reports i have there is just he and smoke reported. but i'll dig deeper.

in one location i was able to reduce the losses by integrating a small wall in the building. but basements would probably reduce the issue significantly. I attached a picture to show the state of the village after 72 hours.

on the other hand i have two battalion sized assaults across an open field which end in almost total annihilation in CM - and didn't in reality. i lay a line target - there the AI could also have an issue as it moves all units through the line more or less regardless of the losses. but that's not the issue i started this thread for.

[gunnergoz]

I've never tried it but is it possible to insert a bunker into a larger building? I've seen foxholes have half their number end up under a nearby house so it may be possible - though not necessarily what BFC intended.

If you can somehow build a bunker then a house or large building over it, that may help you replicate something like what you want.

Alternately, trenches might do it too.

[winkelried]

I tried this and it helps, but the negative impact on the infantry part of the fighting made the solution useless.

[hoolaman]

Don't forget a lot of troops in WWII avoided artillery by not being under it so dropping it on the heads of men on a CM map might not produce the real world results. There are plenty of tales of German defenders reoccupying foxholes after a barrage lifts.

Foxholes do seem to be way undermodelled though. There were some really serious dugouts and fighting positions in Normandy and the stuff in the game doesn't seem to replicate that.

[Sgt Joch]

winkelried,

if tell us what battle you are trying to simulate and what info you have, it will be easier to comment.

[womble]

Foxholes do seem to be way undermodelled though. There were some really serious dugouts and fighting positions in Normandy and the stuff in the game doesn't seem to replicate that.

Foxholes != "really serious dugouts and fighting positions"

Foxholes are shallow scrapes with maybe some sandbags

Bunkers are really serious dugouts and fighting positions...

Someone discovered the other day that if you are building a map, you can stick bocage on top of trenches and foxholes (apparently it looks a bit messy) and you get something that feels a bit more like the serious dugouts the Wehrmacht chopped into the back side of norman hedgerows.