Directing fire?

[Major.Pain]

Having some major irritation with this one. Just using this as an example but this kind of thing happens a lot. When FO team has contact (radio visual or voice) all the way up the chain of command to battalion HQ as in this example and still my mortars are listed as out of contact for my FO team, WTF. The head scratching, swearing, shouting at the pc thing is, battalion HQ is sat with the mortars and they are available for battalion HQ to direct fire, not my FO team who is in contact with Battalion through the chain of command. Am i missing something as i seem to be spending a lot of time dicking about in the middle of a battle trying to coax my mortars into actually firing. Have taken some screens of this example but i cannot upload them as the forum max is 19.5kb size limit and shrinking the pic size/resolution saving as different formats, zipping ect i cannot get them small enough for the forum to accept(help appreciated).

My Puma is having a bit a bother as well trying to punch a hole through some bocage, after firing about 15 HE shells into it from about 10mtrs away and its still not lost a leaf! Seen as how a Puma can blow a whole through a wall with HE why not a hedge? Even just eventually will do if it has some extra tough twigs in it.

Links.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1008/foteamcopy.jpg

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1943/battalioncopy.jpg

[YankeeDog]

Hard to say regarding the mortars w/o pictures... you can just upload them to a free photo hosting site like flikr or similar, and link them into your post.

As for blowing a hole in bocage with HE... good luck. It's possible, but it's not easy. A week or so ago someone did a test with how many Sherman 75mm HE shells it took to blow a hole in the bocage. IIRC, the figure was something like 15-20 *hits*, with higher shell usage than this because some shots pass through the bocage.

50mm HE would have substantially less effect than 75mm -- I don't know exactly, but since explosive filler is related to volume of the shell, and not diameter, a typical 50mm HE shell going to have a lot less then 2/3 the blast of a 75mm shell...

Overall, I don't think you're going to get very far blasting a hole in bocage with a Puma.

[Praetori]

Having some major irritation with this one. Just using this as an example but this kind of thing happens a lot. When FO team has contact (radio visual or voice) all the way up the chain of command to battalion HQ as in this example and still my mortars are listed as out of contact for my FO team, WTF. The head scratching, swearing, shouting at the pc thing is, battalion HQ is sat with the mortars and they are available for battalion HQ to direct fire, not my FO team who is in contact with Battalion through the chain of command. Am i missing something as i seem to be spending a lot of time dicking about in the middle of a battle trying to coax my mortars into actually firing. Have taken some screens of this example but i cannot upload them as the forum max is 19.5kb size limit and shrinking the pic size/resolution saving as different formats, zipping ect i cannot get them small enough for the forum to accept(help appreciated).

My Puma is having a bit a bother as well trying to punch a hole through some bocage, after firing about 15 HE shells into it from about 10mtrs away and its still not lost a leaf! Seen as how a Puma can blow a whole through a wall with HE why not a hedge? Even just eventually will do if it has some extra tough twigs in it.

Are you sure they're in the SAME battalion? (I've made that mistake once)

[Major.Pain]

Are you sure they're in the SAME battalion? (I've made that mistake once)

Yes, there was only one battalion HQ it was a small battle, battalion HQ sat with the mortars was the head honcho for the axis, thats why i am confused why he did not pass the request for fire support from my FO to the mortars, he could have shimmied over to the right a few meters and let a few rounds off himself, for the cause or should i say the corp and all that.

[akd]

Most likely there is a break in the mortars' chain of command.

[AslakH]

I made a scenario and got the "Out of contact" label for some reason, and I thought "What is this ****!?".

After fiddling around in the editor, it went back to normal. I just make sure they are linked up nice and tight before starting the battle.

[WriterJWA]

Having some major irritation with this one. Just using this as an example but this kind of thing happens a lot. When FO team has contact (radio visual or voice) all the way up the chain of command to battalion HQ as in this example and still my mortars are listed as out of contact for my FO team, WTF. The head scratching, swearing, shouting at the pc thing is, battalion HQ is sat with the mortars and they are available for battalion HQ to direct fire, not my FO team who is in contact with Battalion through the chain of command. Am i missing something as i seem to be spending a lot of time dicking about in the middle of a battle trying to coax my mortars into actually firing.

By the looks of the pictures, it seems your FO can't communicate with the mortars because it has no radio and needs to be able to directly communicate with the mortars themselves. I assume you're trying to relay the fire direction control information through the platoon commander. Did you check to see if the platoon commander has a radio? If not, you're SOL. I think the only way voice and sight chain of command can work with regards to calling in indirect fire is if the leader calling it in is calling it back directly to the tubes. An example is a mortar section leader at the edge of a patch of woods calling adjustments to mortars who are in voice command but out of LOS to the target.

[Major.Pain]

By the looks of the pictures, it seems your FO can't communicate with the mortars because it has no radio and needs to be able to directly communicate with the mortars themselves. I assume you're trying to relay the fire direction control information through the platoon commander. Did you check to see if the platoon commander has a radio? If not, you're SOL. I think the only way voice and sight chain of command can work with regards to calling in indirect fire is if the leader calling it in is calling it back directly to the tubes. An example is a mortar section leader at the edge of a patch of woods calling adjustments to mortars who are in voice command but out of LOS to the target.

The FO's platoon HQ is stood in visual/voice range about 15mtrs behind, he has a visual/voice contact with his company HQ who in turn has a radio and is in contact with battalion HQ who is stood with the mortar team and able to spot/call a fire mission himself. I thought if you were linked up with the chain of command all the way up to the highest ranking officer on the battlefield (battalion HQ) why wont battalion HQ relay your fire request to the mortar team he is stood with?

[WriterJWA]

Ok ... according to the manual, as it relates to C2 and calling for indirect fire, you SHOULD be in contact to do it.

The manual states:

C2 Links: Ideally the spotter should show green connections to all superior units. The spotter also needs a connection to the firing unit in order to be able to call on it to fire. Units without a communication link to the spotter are shown as "out of contact" in the Support Roster.

Now, according to the manual, "units can effectively only trace command-and-control to their immediately-superior HQ's." If those mortars are a company asset, the battalion HQ is not going to waste time on a subordinate asset two-three levels down (company-to-platoon-to-section). Now, if the battalion commander was spotting in this case, then the change of command would be lined up right. Basically, the chain of command seems to only go up, down, or laterally (company to company/platoon to platoon); not up and then back down.

With mortars specifically, what I tend to do (at least for the American side) is this: Just about every mortar section/platoon seems to come with two leaders in the game -- a senior NCO (such as a master sergeant) and is labeled as a HQ support team, and a weapons platoon commander. Both teams have radios. I'll leave the NCO with the mortar tubes and send the platoon commander with the base of fire element or with the company commander and have him call in the bombardments as I need. This way I have a direct link from weapons platoon commander to the mortar NCO who is managing the tubes. I usually use my company commander or dedicated FO if I want battalion/regimental level mortars or artillery. So far, 99 percent of my barrages have been on target and relatively quick. In fact, just recently I was able to take out two 88's with a well placed 105mm barrage called in by the company-attached FO relaying directly to the battery.

[Major.Pain]

@WriterJWA, thanks for the heads up about fire support requests not being relayed up and then back down several levels to the mortar section, did not really consider the fact the idea that battalion HQ would not busy himself relaying a support request back down to a asset several levels down the chain, awkward old bastard.

Interesting, this may well be why i am having this issue from time to time in my mortars being out of contact.

[Dragotin]

So, you are saying that the Battallion commander is countermanding our orders? Doesn't seem right to me.

[Major.Pain]

So, you are saying that the Battallion commander is countermanding our orders? Doesn't seem right to me.

I would say more like not wanting to pass on my FO request for fire support to the mortar section.

[hoolaman]

It may be confusing because the Battalion commander can order fire missions directly from mortars he is close to, but really he is just yelling abuse at them and threatening court-martial until they do what he says. He doesn't want any part in the mundane relaying of fire mission radio calls.

[Major.Pain]

Think battalion best buck his ideas up to be honest, shame the guy into getting his finger out his arse. His lack of respect for his subordinates simple requests has led to many a needless death and i think he should be singled out in the letter home to mum as the only reason little Johnny will be returning home in more pieces than when he left.

[stikkypixie]

Think battalion best buck his ideas up to be honest, shame the guy into getting his finger out his arse. His lack of respect for his subordinates simple requests has led to many a needless death and i think he should be singled out in the letter home to mum as the only reason little Johnny will be returning home in more pieces than when he left.

Do you have a save file? I think the beta testers would probably be interested in this.

[Major.Pain]

No save file sorry, it was RT battle, only the screens linked above.

[phil stanbridge]

Are you absolutely sure the mortars were deployed? I'm able to direct fire from XO and Platoon HQ's at variable distances from the mortars because they have radio communication with *their* platoon HQ.

[Major.Pain]

Yes the mortars were deployed as Battalion HQ stood with them was able to spot/direct fire himself from this same mortar section, which was showing as available to him if you look at the links on the first post.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1008/foteamcopy.jpg

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/1...talioncopy.jpg

Must be as @WriterJWA states the issue as being..

Now, according to the manual, "units can effectively only trace command-and-control to their immediately-superior HQ's." If those mortars are a company asset, the battalion HQ is not going to waste time on a subordinate asset two-three levels down (company-to-platoon-to-section). Now, if the battalion commander was spotting in this case, then the change of command would be lined up right. Basically, the chain of command seems to only go up, down, or laterally (company to company/platoon to platoon); not up and then back down.

[WriterJWA]

It's actually a pretty realistic setup as far as the game engine is concerned. A platoon/company commander is not going to bother the battalion commander (who has his own problems on a larger scale) with a company/platoon level indirect fire mission. That's what the platoon/company commander gets paid for. BUT, it is the battalion commander's perrogative to use company-level organic mortar assets for his own purposes as he sees fit, that's why BinHidin was able to call in 60 fire from the battalion commander directly, but not able to use the BN HQ as a communication conduit from the FO to the tubes.

[stikkypixie]

It's actually a pretty realistic setup as far as the game engine is concerned. A platoon/company commander is not going to bother the battalion commander (who has his own problems on a larger scale) with a company/platoon level indirect fire mission. That's what the platoon/company commander gets paid for. BUT, it is the battalion commander's perrogative to use company-level organic mortar assets for his own purposes as he sees fit, that's why BinHidin was able to call in 60 fire from the battalion commander directly, but not able to use the BN HQ as a communication conduit from the FO to the tubes.

I don't think this is how it works in the game, but I might be wrong.

To me there are three options

a) it's a bug

there is some delay before the links are established

c) the mortars are not part of command structure of the FO, so the FO doesn't know they are there. But being close to the Bn HQ, HQ could command them and direct fire.

[WriterJWA]

The only other thing I can think of is that the FO/Platoon commander's radio is not functioning properly and cant communicate to the tubes. Yesterday, playing the first battle of Road to Montebourg, I had this happen briefly. The radios of the time period finicky historically, perhaps this is modeled.

I think perhaps what we need here is a little developer input.... answer this question once and for all!

[stikkypixie]

The only other thing I can think of is that the FO/Platoon commander's radio is not functioning properly and cant communicate to the tubes. Yesterday, playing the first battle of Road to Montebourg, I had this happen briefly. The radios of the time period finicky historically, perhaps this is modeled.

I think perhaps what we need here is a little developer input.... answer this question once and for all!

I know that it actually takes time (in the game) to set up the radios. So C2 will not be restored immediately after moving an HQ unit.

[MOSwas71331]

I can't even deploy a mortar. I issue the command, the purple deploy box becomes bright, I get a movement-like cursor, I move that near the mortar group and click on the screen, and the purple box goes dark. Then, when I play the turn, nothing happens. The various men in the mortar group are mostly shown as spotting (without being able to see anything much), though sometimes one is cowering.

The weapons platoon leader has a radio and is moving to where I hope he'll see some Kraut units. I'm counting on another leader with a radio and another mortar arriving soon. I trust that leader can relay the weapons platoon leader's instructions to adjust fire from the two mortars. (If that doesn't work, the mortars will be of little value.)

I find this very frustrating.

[MOSwas71331]

I erred in my last post. I don't get a special cursor when I try to deploy the mortar, so I guess the deployment is supposed to occur where the mortar presently is.

In any event, though, the mortar doesn't deploy. The command shows as available, so why doesn't the mortar group execute it???

[stikkypixie]

I erred in my last post. I don't get a special cursor when I try to deploy the mortar, so I guess the deployment is supposed to occur where the mortar presently is.

In any event, though, the mortar doesn't deploy. The command shows as available, so why doesn't the mortar group execute it???

To move deploy them, move them, highlight the last waypoint and click the deploy button. The mortars will the go to the waypoint and deploy.