Need weapon retreiving abstraction

[Vinnart]

Ok, so I am in a PBEM where one must be at their top game, and mistakes make more of a difference. I went through a plan to retrive a SAW off a dead dude. The plan was to have a team crawl over to him, pop smoke, give the quick aid because he his dead with a pause, GRAB THE WEAPON, and then boogie to the woods close by.

Here is what happened, and where the abstraction for such cases sounds reasonable. When the team got to the casualty it was another SAW gunner who went to give medic aid due to the action spot placement, and DID NOT RETRIEVE THE WEAPON to trade out with an M16 for another member of the team. If it had been an M16 guy, he would have swapped weapons. If it were a real soldier he would have grabed the SAW, and grave it to a teammate, and would have not left the weapon there.

To solve the point I am getting at in being at the mercy of the action spot placements of different soldiers with different weapons I would like the abstraction of a superior weapon automatically being swapped for a lesser weapon in cases such as describe where medic has the same superior weapon.

All that risk being exposed just to retrieve the MG, and it was all for naught. Sound like a logical abstraction?

[Magpie_Oz]

I guess you could get the team that doesn't have a SAW to go and do the retrieval?

You could also run into the problem where a squad ends up picking up numerous weapons from the battlefield, take an extreme case you might end up with a squad that picks up a whole heap of "superior" SMAAW's and then find it cannot defend itself as it has no small arms.

Maybe something like this could be good but the amount of coding to make it workable might be prohibitive?

[Vinnart]

Yes, having a sqd with no SAW get it would be ideal in the perfect battle that fits into a neat little box , but we all know life and the best laid plans often do not. Even whithin that team I sent there were more with M16 than SAW. The SAW gunner just happened to end up in the coner nearest to the casualty.

I have had teams end up with mor than 1 SAW or M32, but never ran into the problem of haveing too many SWAAWS in the senerio propsed. Not to say it could never happen, but I think mathmaticly the probablility would be not likley.

I think such abstraction in this case is reasonable, but as you say unless you program games it is hard to say how hard to impliment. There is already a similiar abstraction that automaticly transfers HMG to the next guy in team if gunner goes down. I feel this would be more along those lines. Just another thing to add to the never ending to do list in the strive for perfection. Little by little with ach patch, and build it is does seem to be getting better all the time. Lets hope this is something BF has on the backburner already.

Against the AI these things never seem to come up, bacuase it so much easier playing againt the computer. Rarly do I play a senario where the mabushes, and fields of fire are anything like a human would play it.

[Erwin]

How about consider that the SAW was simply inoperable?

[Vinnart]

How about consider that the SAW was simply inoperable?

I think that highly unlikly that the weapon was broken as I have never exeperienced that in the game with small arms. It was not picked up simply because another SAW gunner gave medic aid. He picked up the ammo, but not the MG. if the action spot placement would have ended up with an M16 guy next to the casualty he would have swaped out his weapon for the better one for sure.

[Vinnart]

BUT WAIT it gets better! Same game. This time I send another team to get that original downed SAW, and WHO ends up doing the medic aid? M32 guy. Does he pick up the SAW, and toss to the dude with M16 laying right next to him? NO! BUT WAIT there is more. I have another SAW down, and another SAW guy ends up next that downed man too. Same problem doesn't pick up the SAW to give to squad mate. This group is probably is going to get another wounded as the smoke has dissipated. All the risk for nothing. BUT WAIT there is more! I now have a M32 down, and who ends up giving the medic aid? SAW dude! Can you believe it? LOL, or I sure would be crying

BF I think you can see the dilemma here. I have heavy weapons down that are within arms reach that I cannot pick up. Please look into this as I feel this is a legitimate problem.

[LJFHutch]

That is quite ridiculous, SAW, M32's and AT infantry are much more important than a rifleman, it would make much more sense for the guys with assault rifles only to do buddy aid and all that while the SAWs and whatnot provide cover.

[Vinnart]

Good point Hutch. The thing is it is who ever ends up closest to the casualty is the one who ends up giving the aid. This why an abstraction would just solve the problem much like it is handled with the HMG. When the gunner is hit it automaticly transfers to the next guy, This is an abstraction that works simply to avoid what I am going through. Could you imagine in real life if a dude left a heavy weapon there. His squad mates would frag his arse on the grounds of stupidity with just cause.

[Magpie_Oz]

I think you might be taking this maybe a little far. Exchanging weapons on the battlefield is not really a common practise, I guess from a certain perspective you have a known, your own weapon, so one might be a little hesitant to swap it for an unknown, someone else's weapon. Especially given that it has potentially suffered battle damage.

Having said that often a leader will give a specific order to retrieve a weapon, so maybe that is an option, add the ability to order a squad to retrieve a specific weapon, maybe a broadening of the the "Acquire" command?

[c3k]

How about consider that the SAW was simply inoperable?

Hit by the round which killed/injured the soldier? Or, at the moment of impact, he flung it into the dirt and it just can't be found. (He no longer had it attached: he found it too binding to have his weapon attached to his rig. )

The sight of arterial blood spurting in an arcing fountain focused the buddy aid soldier on his screaming comrade and shook him so much that he just didn't friggin' care about the gun anymore?

Seeing his comrade without an arm made the buddy aid soldier, after applying a tourniquet, spend time searching for the missing limb, rather than the missing arms? (Punny, I know.)

I can come up with more examples.

[Erwin]

That was the point I was trying to make.

However, Vinnart's later examples are a bit extreme if a better weapon is NEVER picked up. I have not experienced such bad luck in the game personally.

[Vinnart]

I think you might be taking this maybe a little far. Exchanging weapons on the battlefield is not really a common practise, I guess from a certain perspective you have a known, your own weapon, so one might be a little hesitant to swap it for an unknown, someone else's weapon. Especially given that it has potentially suffered battle damage.

Having said that often a leader will give a specific order to retrieve a weapon, so maybe that is an option, add the ability to order a squad to retrieve a specific weapon, maybe a broadening of the the "Acquire" command?

That is a negative. Every soldier is cross-trained on all the common weapons in a squad. By the time I graduated basic training in 1984 everyone including myself could operate the following weapon systems: M16 rifle, M60 machine gun, M203, LAW, claymore mine, frag grenade. Not switching to a better weapon would not happen. If the weapon were damaged it would still be retrieved for repair lest it fall into enemy hands, fixed, and used against you, and your buddy's. Damage to weapons on this level is not modeled. Have you ever had an M16 guy not switch to a better weapon? No.

Perhaps an acquire option, or something to solve it. I still think the abstraction of handing it to a squad buddy to switch out for an M16 is the best way to handle it.

[Vinnart]

Took a little advice from Sun Tzu, and decided to starve failure rather than feed it. I abandoned medic that one team was doing as the SAW gunner was not going to pick up the SAW any way. They made it to safety, and maybe when the area gets a bit more secure I can try another attempt. The M32 guy finished the medic aid on the SAW guy, and rather than toss it to the M16 guy who was about 3m away it is now is in limbo where all the other unclaimed weapons go. I DID manage to get an M32 back as SAW guy swapped out for it. His SAW though went poof!,and went to never never land too rather than passing it to another in the Sqd. with an M16. Perhaps some paranormal investigator troops can make contact with my weapons, and bring them back from the twilight zone.

One of the reasons though why this is happening is I have my squads broken into teams which I prefer for the current situation. This lowers the odds to a 50% that M16 guys go in for the medic aid. Still though, this is something worth looking into. This is just frustration burdening by the AI to whomever may experience this that has nothing to do with the game, which is the enjoyment of applying strategy and tactics.

[Magpie_Oz]

That is a negative. Every soldier is cross-trained on all the common weapons in a squad. By the time I graduated basic training in 1984 everyone including myself could operate the following weapon systems: M16 rifle, M60 machine gun, M203, LAW, claymore mine, frag grenade. Not switching to a better weapon would not happen. If the weapon were damaged it would still be retrieved for repair lest it fall into enemy hands, fixed, and used against you, and your buddy's. Damage to weapons on this level is not modeled. Have you ever had an M16 guy not switch to a better weapon? No.

Perhaps an acquire option, or something to solve it. I still think the abstraction of handing it to a squad buddy to switch out for an M16 is the best way to handle it.

Add L1A1, Carl Gustav 84mm, F1, M79, F89, F88 and Browning 9mm to that list and our training was the same but our doctrine did not necessarily emphasise taking "better" weapons.

Of course in many cases it makes sense to swap a weapon, especially in the circumstance where it is the section's main firepower, but if you already have a SAW it is unlikely you would pick up another.

I am talking here in contact, which was the example mentioned by the OP, of course the post battle reorg would involve retrieving weapons, a phase not modelled by CMSF.

[Erwin]

"If the weapon were damaged it would still be retrieved for repair lest it fall into enemy hands..."

You should definitely mention this new feature to Steve.

[Vinnart]

"If the weapon were damaged it would still be retrieved for repair lest it fall into enemy hands..."

You should definitely mention this new feature to Steve.

But I have by simply participating in this forum with feedback. Battlefront may not respond to all threads, but I am confident they read the post, and consider them. That's what is most important. This forum is their greatest tool in development of the product for the end user because it is a direct link between us and them.

[Magpie_Oz]

But I have by simply participating in this forum with feedback. Battlefront may not respond to all threads, but I am confident they read the post, and consider them. That's what is most important. This forum is their greatest tool in development of the product for the end user because it is a direct link between us and them.

+1 on that score

[Vinnart]

I just had a positive thought, and that is thankfuly we chose to play in veteran mode. If it had been iron mode in finding out this discovery I would have waisted 10 minutes completely losing my tempo.

As an update I still have one SAW on the field, but am leaving it there since weapon retievals have not been very successful. The wind is moving in a perfect direction for creating a smoke line to hide behind. With this I managed to move a force around the rear of the town on hills overlooking it. If all goes well I should complete the envelopment. I only have one rifle platoon to work with as my force so the room for error is slim.

[Vinnart]

One of my split teams was in a fire fight, and the SAW gunner switched back and forth from the SAW, and an M32. This says that an abstaction did take place, and the weapons were not just left there with no pick up. I do think that it would still make more sense do have given the supereior weapon to another troop with an M16 so both superior weapons could be going at one instead of the one troop switching back and forth during the fight.

[LJFHutch]

Just the other night I had a Javelin guy perform an arduous buddy aid on a fallen team member while the rest of the squad sat around watching as the T-72's tore their company apart - they were the only squad with a Javelin and eyes on the enemy

[Drescher]

Sounds like you got some real bad luck there, Vinnart.

I suspect this might have something to do with the way a team is spread over the action spot. Most of the time they follow a certain layout(havent really tested this though). So the SAW dude ends up in the same spot as the other SAW gunner. Id try sending an AT team, without a SAW gunner, though by chance more than once ive seen the at team having a mg too.

Im not sure if passing weapons is modelled, at least i havent noticed this. Would be cool somehow, though it seems it would fit a movie better than reality. Dont get me wrong, this probably does happen in reallife, but if this was working in CMx2 it would be done every battle and in great numbers. You would have players splitting teams to walk the battlefield collecting weapons...

[Vinnart]

Just the other night I had a Javelin guy perform an arduous buddy aid on a fallen team member while the rest of the squad sat around watching as the T-72's tore their company apart - they were the only squad with a Javelin and eyes on the enemy

I guess the best way to solve this would be to have the programming so one of the least powerful weapon carriers have a priority to administer medic aid. This would eliminate troops with more powerful weapons from ending up carrying two powerful weapons themselves, and would keep the more powerful weapons on look out while an M16 guy goes in for the medic aid, and weapon retrieval. If no M16/M4 guys then the closest troop goes in for the medic aid with the worst-case scenario being he ends up with two powerful weapon instead of one. It would still be great though if he could pass one of those weapons to a guy with a less powerful one.

[Erwin]

Originally Posted by LJFHutch

Just the other night I had a Javelin guy perform an arduous buddy aid on a fallen team member while the rest of the squad sat around watching as the T-72's tore their company apart - they were the only squad with a Javelin and eyes on the enemy.

IIRC if you targeted the enemy tank with the javelin guy, he would stop buddy aid and shoot.