ATGM detection by tanks

[stikkypixie]

Hi,

I've noticed lately that tanks are very quick to react to incoming ATGMs. They pop smoke and rotate to the target before the missile can seen by them (there is no graphical representation of the missile). The tanks are Challenger 2, and as far as I know, they don't carry special ATGM detection unit like for example the T-90 which gets alerted if there are painted by a laser.

Is this a bug or is there something else going on?

[gibsonm]

What timeframe are you talking about?

Comments like "They pop smoke and rotate to the target before the missile can seen by them" tend to be a bit subjective whereas "They pop smoke and rotate to the target witihn 5 sec" gives us something to work on.

[stikkypixie]

What timeframe are you talking about?

Comments like "They pop smoke and rotate to the target before the missile can seen by them" tend to be a bit subjective whereas "They pop smoke and rotate to the target witihn 5 sec" gives us something to work on.

It's not that the quickly they perform the actions, that's fine. But the fact that they somehow know that there is an ATGM incoming what puzzles me. There is no launch signature and the only sight of the missile (sometimes you can see them in flight) is when it impacts.

[gibsonm]

Well perhaps the signature isn't so pronounced that you "see" it but the AI does?

Certainly I've had instances where my crunchies have taken cover from fire and that is the first combat indicator I've had that they are in fact under fire.

I'd expect the same with tks. If we have to make the signature so obvious that the player can't miss it (similar to say a 105mm RCL anyone? ) then they'd be too pronounced (IMHO).

[stikkypixie]

Well perhaps the signature isn't so pronounced that you "see" it but the AI does?

Certainly I've had instances where my crunchies have taken cover from fire and that is the first combat indicator I've had that they are in fact under fire.

I'd expect the same with tks. If we have to make the signature so obvious that the player can't miss it (similar to say a 105mm RCL anyone? ) then they'd be too pronounced (IMHO).

Well the thing that bothers me was that they knew the missile was incoming, but they couldn't say where from . Maybe there wasn't enough information for this. The crew were crack experience, that probably helped.

[Erik Springelkamp]

I have no idea whether this is really the case, but when I saw this behaviour first, I assumed those tanks have automatic detectors that recognise the signature of an incoming missile (infrared?). T90's against Gill's seem to do it all the time, but the rockets often see through the smoke and hit nevertheless.

[stikkypixie]

I have no idea whether this is really the case, but when I saw this behaviour first, I assumed those tanks have automatic detectors that recognise the signature of an incoming missile (infrared?). T90's against Gill's seem to do it all the time, but the rockets often see through the smoke and hit nevertheless.

Aren't Gills top-attack? In that case no amount of smoke is going to help. I believe the T90 has a laser warning, so I assumed that having early warning of an attack is something worth investing in, and it seems very puzzling that even without the fancy equipment the challenger crew could "know" that an ATGM was inbound.

[gibsonm]

I have no idea whether this is really the case, but when I saw this behaviour first, I assumed those tanks have automatic detectors that recognise the signature of an incoming missile (infrared?). T90's against Gill's seem to do it all the time, but the rockets often see through the smoke and hit nevertheless.

Well certainly some vehicles now have either warning systems or warning and defence systems for when they have been lased.

But I don't believe CR2 (the vehicle mentioned) has it.

As for "flying through the smoke" depends on a bunch of stuff like is the smoke "multi spectral" (i.e. TI defeating)? Does the missile need to keep the tgt acquired or does it have a terminal guidance mode that relies on say dead reckoning and is pretty much immune to passive couter measures, etc. ?

All depends on the type of missile and the type of tk.

[gibsonm]

and it seems very puzzling that even without the fancy equipment the challenger crew could "know" that an ATGM was inbound.

Well if you are doing it properly the vehicles in overwatch (who are scanning with their nice x20+ sights for just such a signature or to just spot the ATGM crew for suppresson) while the others in the Troop move, should be able to:

1. Fire on the launch site to supress the operator.

2. Warn the moving vehicles.

[stikkypixie]

Well if you are doing it properly the vehicles in overwatch (who are scanning with their nice x20+ sights for just such a signature or to just spot the ATGM crew for suppresson) while the others in the Troop move, should be able to:

1. Fire on the launch site to supress the operator.

2. Warn the moving vehicles.

I wasn't doing it properly . They were hull-down on top of a hill. Distances were rather short. 20X sights are nice, but don't you have very narrow field of vision? Maybe they were using their fancy IR sights which probably would pick up the missile.

[LJFHutch]

Might want to try it with a single lone tank in a field, might be the inf. is calling it out or something.

[stikkypixie]

Might want to try it with a single lone tank in a field, might be the inf. is calling it out or something.

There is no friendly infantry to be seen. Trust me when I say I'm doing this wrong. Besides the infantry don't even share information with the tanks as the command structure is separate.

[gibsonm]

I wasn't doing it properly . They were hull-down on top of a hill. Distances were rather short. 20X sights are nice, but don't you have very narrow field of vision? Maybe they were using their fancy IR sights which probably would pick up the missile.

Well normally by default you use TI anyway so yes the heat signature might give it away.

Then depending if its "just" CR2 or CR2 Enhanced there are other fire control improvements to consider.

[IMHO]

Looks like I was cloning the topics so just in case I cross post it here.

Stikkypixie had an issue with CR2, I had with Abrams M1A2. When fired upon with an ATGM the tank instantly acquires the location of the ATGM team and starts trashing it. Instantly means the moment you start to see the rocket exhaust in the GUI the tank locks on the target. Lock is judged by the tank rotating the turret in the direction of the ATGM team. Neither the angle from which the tank is fired upon nor the IR/Optics being knocked out matter. If you fire from behind at a tank with knocked out IR/Optics instant lock will work nonetheless. And it works ONLY if tank is designated as the target. If you order ATGM to area fire then target acquisition takes normal time EVEN if the rocket actually hits the tank. Only the first ATGM team gets instant lock - if other teams launch a fraction of a second later they will not be "painted" for the tank. Instant lock works only for ATGMs - if you gun the tank with BMP there will be no instant detection/acquisition. And ATGM type does not matter either - could be laser beam riding, could be wire guided. And though lock is instant the process of training the gun still takes "normal" time.

AFAIK M1A2 does not have a doppler radar and I haven't seen any open information about detecting ATGMs launches by heat signature (even if we speculate it might exist in some latest WFOV FLIR SW releases). So to me seems like a bug. I'm running SF+Marines v1.31.

BTS, please comment.

[Damian90]

Do You considered a possibility that crew just saw an fire from ATGM's engine when it was launched? It should not be a big problem to see a flash from launching engine, especially if this is some newer M1 tank variant like M1A1SA or M1A2SEP with 2nd generation FLIR and a new FCS with new optoelectronics that have max zoom 50x (max digital zoom for 13x normal zoom, there is also 25x digital zoom for 13x normal zoom) so this machine have a really nice FCS, better than any tank modelled in game.

I repeated myself from other thread, Yours.

So YES, tank optics can be used to detect ATGM launch and even to track it, trully ATGM engine when working at any stage is visible even in older thermal sights. Heh, You can with some luck even see ATGM launch (or even ATGM in flight) with a Mk1 eyeballs.

[IMHO]

Fanboys, truly, we are

So first I cross-post the reply from my thread and I suggest we move the discussion to stikkypixie's thread from now on.

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1. Well, we can speculate about the human logic behind this or that behavior of the code but to me it seems useless - only the development team knows why it was done this way. So for me the code just behaves this way No offense here, I beg.

2. IMHO, some particular behavior - like no instant lock for ATGM area fire or gunfire invalidates the logic you offer.

3. Detecting ATGM launches by heat signature (flash) is an obvious idea. I'm sure just as we speak enough people are busy writing code to discriminate between AT-14 exhaust spectrum and pesky RPG-7V one But in real life IT IS very difficult. Consider scanning wide-field-of-view to detect vs. "pointed" lock/track/discriminate. Add parasite reflections etc. So as of now it's doppler radar.

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1. I do not doubt that tank optics in principle can be used to detect an ATGM launch if you train automatic FLIR detector or even WFOV thermal sight (say, commander's CITV at Abrams) at the specific point when launch will happen. But it means you know in advance where it will happen ))

2. I'm pretty sure WFOV thermal sights are useless at tracking ATGMs and I doubt there might be reliable production-grade FLIR software in the next 2-3 years. At the moment FLIR plus doppler radar might be more usable but the first reliable person who tells some system can do it will be shot at the spot )) Just imagine Wadi Saluki where you have 20 simultaneous launches and an APS can differentiate between useless RPG-7Vs and freakish AT-14s ))

[Euri]

Hi,

I've noticed lately that tanks are very quick to react to incoming ATGMs. They pop smoke and rotate to the target before the missile can seen by them (there is no graphical representation of the missile). The tanks are Challenger 2, and as far as I know, they don't carry special ATGM detection unit like for example the T-90 which gets alerted if there are painted by a laser.

Is this a bug or is there something else going on?

This is very true. They pop smoke even before the impact of the first missile launched on them. 1-2 secs before (since some people around here insist on the detail)

[stikkypixie]

This is very true. They pop smoke even before the impact of the first missile launched on them. 1-2 secs before (since some people around here insist on the detail)

Does anyone have a scenario where you can reliably make them pop smoke? I wonder whether the facing of the tank or using cover makes a difference (which would seem logical given all the optics). The reason why I posted this is that the missile going at my tank was going to hit it in the flanks (judging by the facing of the tank) but still it somehow managed to detect it.

[IMHO]

1. Facing does not make any difference for me. Front, side, back - same instant lock. Cover does not mean either - I checked mud, mud with bush, top of the building, mud trench, bush trench. Range does not affect the behavior too - I checked ~500m and 900m. As for scenario - it's pretty consistent so you can make it yourself. I used Tactical Vignette 98-3 lastly with a sole Abrams and an AT platoon. But any map with a huge planes will do, I believe.

2. In my case Abrams starts to move turret in the direction of the ATGM team before it pops smoke which seems to be logical. Throwing screen still takes time

[stikkypixie]

I'll make my own scenario then. I was just asking because if we all have the same scenario, we all know what we are talking about.

[LJFHutch]

Yep I can confirm that tanks do indeed know, instantly and a perfect angle on the launcher.

[stikkypixie]

Yep I can confirm that tanks do indeed know, instantly and a perfect angle on the launcher.

I will seem like a lazy bastard, but do you have a save game you can send to one of the beta testers?

[LJFHutch]

Yup, just attached it to this post. I think, never used attachments before

TEST-TanksInstaSeeATGMTeams.zip

[Euri]

I'll make my own scenario then. I was just asking because if we all have the same scenario, we all know what we are talking about.

If you have the British Module try the Campaign mission where the Brits defend a wide cross road in an urban area (you need to have chosen the Damascus course)

In the original set up you have two tank in the middle of the street. Leave them there (or set them up a bit more in the centre of the street) and simply press the go button. And observe...(just for a few secs)

[Hairy Pie]

A quick question:

Does having your tank commander unbutton make a big difference to spotting? I always keep by crews inside their vehicles.

Ta