Logitech G700 13 button wireless gaming mouse

[user38]

When 12 buttons aren't enough

[Paulverisor64]

And for the other hand:

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=390404

[Lt Belenko]

These will really come in handy in Turn Based Mode.

[user38]

And for the other hand:

http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=390404

I actually bought one of these things years ago - it was great for FPS games. All the keys are bindable, you can bind the keys to three seperate profiles (which are selectable on the fly) and you can program macros to the individual keys. I packed it away when I stopped playing online shooters (I got sick of being fragged by 13 year olds).

I think these things are more designed for FPS games but I guess they would work with strategy games as well.

[Paulverisor64]

I actually bought one of these things years ago - it was great for FPS games. All the keys are bindable, you can bind the keys to three seperate profiles (which are selectable on the fly) and you can program macros to the individual keys. I packed it away when I stopped playing online shooters (I got sick of being fragged by 13 year olds).

I think these things are more designed for FPS games but I guess they would work with strategy games as well.

I'm exactly in the same boat as you. I've dropped the mainstream FPS games because it is all about reflexes which I don't have at 47 years old. I might get back in for the upcoming Red Orchestra game but I'm essentially done with FPS. The N52 allows you to drop the keyboard entirely as you can easily get to a lot of keys in a tight grouping.

In Company of Heroes there is a special "Grid Keys" configuration which I mapped to the N52. "Grid Keys" allows you to follow the same menu drop downs as in the game without having to remove your mouse from on the map. This was not perfect as I could have used slightly more keys.

I see that the 2nd generation Combat Mission had the foresight to allow a "Grid Key" type layout which I really do like, and it appears to have fewer keys needed.

Printed from Manual:

U I O ..................... Top Row of Commands

J K L ...................... Middle Row

M , . ...................... Bottom Row

In reality with turn based games this is overkill, but Combat Mission can be played both WeGo and RTS.

I am quite interested in the possibilities of the Logitech mouse which User38 posted. I will definately keep this in mind.

[user38]

I'm a bit of an input peripheral whore. I used to play Wolfenstien Enemy Terriroty with a Logitech MX1000 and my Belkin n52.

The MX1000 was a 10 button mouse and the combination worked a treat. When my MX1000 died (and my spare MX1000) a few months ago I bought an MX Revolution mouse.

The MX Revolution is a free scrolling mouse. I am very happy with the MX Revolution. It is very comfortable and I now find that I cannot live without a free scrolling. However, in free scroll mode the scroll wheel buttons (left click, middle click and right click) don't work reliably. One of the buttons needs to be dedicated to select and unselect the free scrolling mode so effecitvely it is a four button mouse (the lateral scroll wheel can act as another three buttons but I found it to be in an unergonomic position). I was good for general use (I bought another one for work and a spare) but due to the lack of buttons it is not suitable as a gaming mouse.

[Paulverisor64]

When you play FPS games good input peripherals are a must.

I have both the N52 and the N52TE. The N52 is better for executing simple macro commands but the N52TE is much smoother when using WASD movements so that is what I prefer. I did a little test in Battlefield 2 driving the vehicles. The N52 would drive like a maniac but the N52TE would turn on a dime. With both gamepads I used the alternate states for vehicle commands or on foot commands. I've also used the N52 in games such as Silent Hunter; you can customize it for any type of game.

I like the Logitech MX518 mouse. You can customize the mouse speed from very fast which is useful for seeing the battlefield to slow which would be better suited for setting up shots. I like the side keys which I use for mic input and melee.

Regardless of the game type it's great to have options to keep from searching all over the keyboard or mouse clicking on the screen. From my perspective it allows getting more into the game with a personalized setup and less time hunting and pecking.

[user38]

So yesterday I bought the Logitech G700.

There is good and bad. The MX Revolution is shiny smooth whereas the G700 is slightly textured. This makes it marginally less comfortable but probably gives sweaty FPS players better grip. It is heavier than the Revolution (which is not a bad thing). Best of all, all the buttons are in ergonomically favourable positions and Logitech has fixed the problem with the free scroll buttons so they are now usable in free scroll mode. And the G700 has three selectable profiles with the option of binding different keys in each of the profiles. It also has an incredibly high polling rate (up to 1000 reports per second) so it is supposedly excellent for twitch gamers. You can also change the DPI settings on the fly (although I don't find this to be a useful feature).

Now the bad news.

You can see in this picture a cable attached to the mouse. The G700 is a wireless mouse but it doesn't have a charging dock. You charge it by plugging in a USB cable. In this mode it can be used as a wired mouse while charging (but I consider this to be less convenient than a dock). Worst of all, it is not powered by a lithium-ion battery. It ships with an AA sized low self discharge nickel-metal hydride battery. Arguably NiMH batteries are superior to lithium-ion batteries, but NiMH batteries are difficult to charge quickly (or rather, a quick charger would cost as much as the mouse). Logitech's solution is to trickle charge the battery through the USB port which I understand takes about 5 hours, and this no doubt explains why it is designed to be used as a wired mouse while charging. I'm not sure I like this. It is now the 21st Century. Are we really expected to control our computers with a wired mouse?

At this point I don't know how this will affect me. I guess if it pisses me off too much I could use alkaline batteries.

[user38]

I like the Logitech MX518 mouse. You can customize the mouse speed from very fast which is useful for seeing the battlefield to slow which would be better suited for setting up shots. I like the side keys which I use for mic input and melee.

I can see you don't share my aversion to attached peripherals. As I said above, the G700 has the DPI switcher and it has 4 of those useful side buttons rather than 2.

I have both the N52 and the N52TE. The N52 is better for executing simple macro commands but the N52TE is much smoother when using WASD movements so that is what I prefer.

I find this interesting. I have been looking for an excuse to buy one of the newer Belkin speedpads - I didn't think there was anything other than a cosmetic difference.

Do you use one of them in the CB games (and if so I would be interested in your set up). By the way, years ago I bought one of these:

What a waste of money that was.

[Paulverisor64]

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I can see you don't share my aversion to attached peripherals. As I said above, the G700 has the DPI switcher and it has 4 of those useful side buttons rather than 2.

I find this interesting. I have been looking for an excuse to buy one of the newer Belkin speedpads - I didn't think there was anything other than a cosmetic difference.

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Do you use one of them in the CB games (and if so I would be interested in your set up). By the way, years ago I bought one of these:

[ATTACH]689[/ATTACH]

What a waste of money that was.

From your post above the MX700 does look promissing. The question for me would be whether the extra keys would be intuitively placed or if they are easy to mistake with each other. There are times when a couple extra keys on the mouse would be nice. I like the fact that it has the higher interpolation rate.

You were wondering whether the N52TE might be worth looking at. For some people it is perfect for others it is a waste of time. Belkin used to have a forum for the N52TE which they shut down. There were so many complaints that the whole thing in the end just got abandoned. From my recollection there were 2 main complaints, which neither was a big issue for me. Many people who used the thumb pad for actual movement were very disappointed. The WOW crowd really struggled with this. For me I used the Thumb pad (D pad) to change stance UP was jump, DOWN was down etc... this worked perfect. Another issue was that the macros were quite flaky. I found that intelligent key layout achieved better results so I didn't need this.

The 2 things that I considered as gain going from the N52 to the N52TE is how smoothly the WASD type movement is, and also how smooth the key feel is. This feels more like a good laptop style keyboard. One more thing that I do not really use, but is helpful for some is how the gamepad will retain the configuration that you determine as being the default. In plugging this in my keypad most likely has what I last used with Operation Flashpoint.

If you'd like to know anymore specifics I'd be glad to fill you in.

I have not actually put together a Combat Mission style key layout. I believe I will actually start off with the "Grid Key" style arrangement and see how that works. I most likely will use the D pad assigned to the menu headings.

I will share my in game findings as I try this out; please feel free to compare notes if you do go the N52 route.

[Vinnart]

I'm a bit of an input peripheral whore. I used to play Wolfenstien Enemy Terriroty with a Logitech MX1000 and my Belkin n52.

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[ATTACH]683[/ATTACH]

The MX1000 was a 10 button mouse and the combination worked a treat. When my MX1000 died (and my spare MX1000) a few months ago I bought an MX Revolution mouse.

[ATTACH]681[/ATTACH]

The MX Revolution is a free scrolling mouse. I am very happy with the MX Revolution. It is very comfortable and I now find that I cannot live without a free scrolling. However, in free scroll mode the scroll wheel buttons (left click, middle click and right click) don't work reliably. One of the buttons needs to be dedicated to select and unselect the free scrolling mode so effecitvely it is a four button mouse (the lateral scroll wheel can act as another three buttons but I found it to be in an unergonomic position). I was good for general use (I bought another one for work and a spare) but due to the lack of buttons it is not suitable as a gaming mouse.

I have the same exact set up; N52+ Logitech MX Revolution. I have had no problems with either, and highly recommend both for any type of game. The model shown for MX Revolution unfortunatly is no longer available with the wheel side button. It is the best mouse I have had to date! For CM it is great. I use forward and back buttons to cycle through units. Center button to center camera on unit, and the rest have camera views 1-6. Between that and the N52 one controlls the game with complete ease, and speed.

[user38]

From your post above the MX700 does look promissing. The question for me would be whether the extra keys would be intuitively placed... or if they are easy to mistake with each other.

The answer here is yes and no. If you enlarge the picture below you will see there is an indentation on the right hand side or the mouse, below which is a flange. I guess it depends on whether you are right handed, the size of your hands and whether you use a palm grip or a claw grip, but for me (with a palm grip) my thumb naturally rest on the flange and the thumb buttons are in the perfect position above it. You won't hit them by accident and they can be engaged very comfortably.

If you enlarge the next picture you will see the placement of the top buttons. The scroll wheel is obviously in the perfect position and it has three buttons: middle click, left and right click. On my Revolution mouse the scroll wheel buttons are mushy but I find the G700 scroll wheel buttons have a distinctive clicky feel. I feel completely confident using them.

Regarding the three buttons on the left, with my with short fingers the top button can only be accessed if I lift my palm off the mouse. The other two buttons are accessible without a change of grip but they are just left of a comfortable position. I should mention that I tend to hold the mouse with my index finger to the left of and touching the scroll wheel. If you grip the mouse with your middle finger on the scroll wheel (ie. if you are a freak) the left buttons naturally sit under your index finger.

The two buttons below the scroll wheel are not ergonomically placed. The first one is not programmable (and is not counted as one of the 13 buttons): it is a mechanical button that engages and disengages the free scrolling mode. With my mouse grip when I move my index finger onto the scroll wheel this button sits under and just touches the middle segment of my index finger. It is stiff, relatively high (see bottom picture) with a long travel. It can't be engaged by accident: to engage it I have to move my index finger off of the scroll wheel and curl it backwards an uncomfortable distance.

If you enlarge the next picture you will see button below the scroll wheel button is relatively low. With my fingers and mouse grip and with my index finger on the scroll wheel this button sits directly under and several millimetres below the joint between the second and third segment of my index finger. It can only be engaged with a deliberate act of will. This is a programmable button and its default action is the profile switcher.

The question for me would be whether the extra keys... are easy to mistake with each other.

If you enlarge the picture below I don't think I have to answer this question.

To complete the mouse button discussion I should also mention that the mouse allows (I think) 5 user selectable profiles. You can also program an application specific profile that automatically loads when the specified application is executed (I imagine the MX 581 also had this feature). If you only wanted a gaming and non gaming profile I guess you could use this feature to switch to the gaming profile and bind the profile switching button to some other function. Also the profiles are stored in mouse memory and I believe the key assignment bindings can be used on computers that do not have the logitech set point software installed. I should also note that the battery level does not display by default: you need to check it with a mouse button or in set point (or you could switch the mouse off and then on again using the on/off switch underneath the mouse). Also, you can vary the vertical and horizontal sensitivity independent of each other, etc. (I think these are all logitech standard features.)

Another interesting feature is the mouse feet. The manual states they are replaceable. They appear to be clipped on. This is good news since one of the reason I replaced my MX1000 was because the mouse feet fell off. However, I have no idea where you could buy replacement feet for the G700.

To sum up, if you are a button fiend (like me) this is a great mouse. It is marginally less comfortable than my MX Revolution and I am still pissed off about the battery issue, but I think I can live with it.

You were wondering whether the N52TE might be worth looking at. For some people it is perfect for others it is a waste of time. Belkin used to have a forum for the N52TE which they shut down. There were so many complaints that the whole thing in the end just got abandoned. From my recollection there were 2 main complaints, which neither was a big issue for me. Many people who used the thumb pad for actual movement were very disappointed. The WOW crowd really struggled with this.

With my n52 I found the thumb buttons to be next to useless (especially the space bar key). However, with my 10 button MX 1000 it wasn't an issue.

Thanks for the advice: I think I will take my n52 out of storage and give it a spin.

[user38]

I have the same exact set up; N52+ Logitech MX Revolution. I have had no problems with either, and highly recommend both for any type of game. The model shown for MX Revolution unfortunatly is no longer available with the wheel side button. It is the best mouse I have had to date! For CM it is great. I use forward and back buttons to cycle through units. Center button to center camera on unit, and the rest have camera views 1-6. Between that and the N52 one controlls the game with complete ease, and speed.

I found the side wheel to be too far forward to be comfortable (I think it would work better if I had a larger hand and a longer thumb).

[Paulverisor64]

user38: Last evening I video reviewed the Logitech Revolution and the G700 to see if this would give me a big gain. I believe your review of the G700 covers more points and is more applicable. I hold the MX518 mouse exactly the way you describe holding the G700 mouse. Since I have smaller hands this would tell me that I too would have trouble reaching all the keys; it would not be a perfect fit. Still it is good to know that there is a gaming mouse out there that could provide more keys if I find I needed them.

Both the G700 and the Revolution have a free wheeling scroll wheel. That is very intriguing but I'm wondering whether that would be a huge gain in gaming; especially with Combat Mission.

I have the same exact set up; N52+ Logitech MX Revolution. I have had no problems with either, and highly recommend both for any type of game. The model shown for MX Revolution unfortunatly is no longer available with the wheel side button. It is the best mouse I have had to date! For CM it is great. I use forward and back buttons to cycle through units. Center button to center camera on unit, and the rest have camera views 1-6. Between that and the N52 one controlls the game with complete ease, and speed.

Vinnart: I like how you use the forward and back buttons on your mouse. It is also good to see that there are several people who play Combat Mission who use the N52. Please feel free to share your key layout if it works good for you. Yesterday afternoon I pulled out my N52TE and set it up for the Combat Mission SF demo. I set this up to Combat Mission's relative key layout and it works awesome. Basically anything you see on the screen is what the gamepad is laid out to. This frees up a lot of keys because each key does quadruple duties. Each of the 4 menu headings MOVEMENT, COMBAT, SPECIAL, ADMIN is triggered by the 4 main D pad headings. For this alone I'm happy that I dug out the N52TE.

I would like to capture the other important keys; since I've not played CMSF that much I'm thinking that this will be a work in progress. I won't be able to completely abandon mouse clicking in the game interface unfortunately as it appears not every icon on the screen can be configured to a hotkey.

[user38]

Paulverisor64

the MX Revolution mouse would be a excellent gaming mouse if the side wheel was in an ergonomic position. It is not actually a scroll wheel. It is more like a sprung switch. It rotates about 10 degrees clockwise and anti-clockwise when pressed or pulled (and automatically centres when released). It also has a middle click function. With the 2 button above the thumb that gives 5 thumb buttons (vs 4 thumb buttons on the G700). Unfortunately, if you rest your thumb anywhere on the wheel other than the middle position it rotates when you press to middle click. Given I have to shift my mouse grip to even touch it the thumb wheel is useless to me.

I have wondered whether there is a design flaw in the mouse or a design flaw in my hand. I think the answer is neither. On the MX Revolution mouse the middle segment of my thumb reset exactly under the division between the forward and rear thumb buttons, so I think the mouse was designed for someone like me (that is, a normal sized middle aged man with a mouse fetish rather than a 6’5” teenager with musician fingers). The default function of the thumb wheel is document flip: it makes sense the designers would reserve this function for a button that could not be activated other than with a deliberate action.

I haven’t bothered setting up either the MX Revolution or G700 for gaming but I would hypothesis that I would assign the following buttons to game commands:

MX Revolution (6 buttons)

2 thumb buttons

3 scroll wheel buttons (left, right and middle click)

1 under scroll wheel button

(3 side wheel buttons not assigned)

G700 (9 buttons)

4 thumb buttons

3 scroll wheel buttons (left, right and middle click)

2 left of scroll wheel buttons

(1 left of scroll wheel button not assigned)

(1 under scroll wheel button not assigned)

On buttons alone I don’t see a significant difference between the MX Revolution and the G700.

Pluses for the G700:

Insanely high polling rate

On the fly DPI switching

Independently adjustable vertical and horizontal scrolling speed

Multiple user selectable profiles (5 stored in mouse memory)

Application detection (auto selection of profile on application launch)

Macro editor

Pluses for the MX Revolution:

Charging dock

Lithium ion battery

More comfortable

The G700 is premium gaming mouse whereas the MX Revolution is merely a premium mouse. That said, but for the side wheel issue I would definitely choose the MX Revolution over the G700.

As far as free scrolling goes, I can’t see that it would be of much use in games. But it is extremely useful in scrolling through long documents and web pages. It is my favourite feature on both mouses.

Vinnart

I hope I didn't insult you with that "musician fingers" crack.

[Vinnart]

User38 no prob. I actually have small hands, and relativly short fingers i feel (medium size man), I do have to lift my hand, and move my hand just a bit to reach the side thumb wheel on the MX Revolution. I don't think the motion of doing so is such an inconvienience. I have the motion down pat, like switching gears in a car. I would rather have to move a half inch then not have the buttons there. I have no problem with it at all. For CM I have it set for camera angles 1-3 which I use frequently. For everyday I use it for zooming in and out. On the newer model the buttons they replaced the thumb wheel look too small IMO. I Like the thumb wheel, along with all the features of it. Works from across the room, on any surface, durable; I have droped mine on the tile floor numerous times, and it keeps on tickin. Comfortable for my hand. Best mouse IMO.

As for the N52 it works great with CM, and i would consider it a must equipment for competitive edge in RT play. I have all the most common commands set to the top gear, first row move commands, second row combat, 3rd row some specials like hide. Bottom cornor buttons are Shift, CTrL, and F12. Red gear I have for turning sound off, landmarks, trees ect.. and camera zoom via N52 wheel. Commands not used as much such as administrative i will use space bar, or GUI to access. With the Combo mouse with many buttons + N52 I couldn't ask for a more efficient way to control the game.

[Vinnart]

Here is my layout profile for N52 for CM. Keep in mind my hotkeys are alternate to the stanadard, but should not make a difference. With any new control it is about muscle memory through repitition, and logical set up to become second nature. Another thing I have done with my N52 is differentiate the feel of each button. I have given every other button a textured feel like brail for the blind. I did this through various methods such as using dots of elmers glue, then let dry.

CMSF.zip

[user38]

I'm embarrased to say that after gushing over the G700 for a day and a half I packed it back in its box and went back to using my MX Revolution. The G700 has a lot of gaming features like DPI switching and multiple profiles, but the MX Revolution is more comfortable: it's a classier product.

I have noticed I do the same thing as you to use the thumb wheel (which I have bound to cut and paste). After owning the mouse for two days I unbound the thumb wheel middle click button but on reflection that was probably premature.

Anyway, when CMBfN is released I will drag out my n52 and give it a whirl.

[~Viajero]

I've dropped the mainstream FPS games because it is all about reflexes which I don't have at 47 years old. I might get back in for the upcoming Red Orchestra game but I'm essentially done with FPS.

You then need to try Arma II. Better yet, need to try Arma II Operation Arrowhead.

Best FPS (if you can call it that) I ve ever played. More of a simulator than a FPS really. Incredibly immersive and realistic. According to critics simulation is such that you need to behave as close as you probably would in a real situation, i.e. no trigger happy jumping all over the place calling you noob hormone filled teenages around etc. No. This game actually requires some thinking and mouse reflexes requirements are only secondary. Play Rambo and you re as good as dead.

http://www.arma2.com/game-features/arma-2-operation-arrowhead-features_en.html

http://www.armaholic.com/

[LJFHutch]

Hey don't diss the n52te, that thing is awesome, I use it for painting all the time, definitely an awesome little gadget Admittedly the kind of games I play usually require more buttons and/or steering wheels

Edit: As much as I like ArmA2 I wouldn't go so far as to call it a simulation. In some ways it's realistic, in others it doesn't stand much above the Call of Duty series unfortuneately. An FPS based on CM, now that I wanna see

[~Viajero]

Edit: As much as I like ArmA2 I wouldn't go so far as to call it a simulation. In some ways it's realistic, in others it doesn't stand much above the Call of Duty series unfortuneately. An FPS based on CM, now that I wanna see

Probably worth to move this particular aspecty of the discusison to the off topic forum, but comparing Arma II to CoD is a tad unfair. Arma II is a different game concept altogether. CoD is just an arcade shooter in comparison. Scratch that, CoD is just an arcade shooter, period.

Anyway, this may boil down to personal tastes, and I will give you that Arma II is not perfect. I just dare you name an infantry FP (not just a shooter) game that may rival or surpass Arma in the simulation aspect!

PS: regarding having a CM FP, I presume you know there are quite decent WWII mods for Arma II out there!

[Paulverisor64]

Vinnart: Thank you for sharing your N52 layout concept. I might have to re-install the old N52 to see how this would work. It sounds like your concept is to have the most used keys front and center. Everyone has a different concept for key arrangement; it is fun to have the flexibility. I do like your idea of adding texture to the keypad so you don't have to look down to see whether you lost your hand position. There is a small key locator in the center of each gamepad, but there are times when that's not enough.

Viajero: There are numerous people who think a lot of Arma II as a decent FPS which is almost simulation like. This would have to be on my short list of games to try out. However I do believe RO Heroes of Stalingrad will be an awesome game; as well as being a WWII title. That I am really anxious for.

LJFHutch: The N52TE may have it's weaknesses on the software end, but it is a top notch hardware peripheral. I would not trade it for the original N52 because I love the feel of the keypad.

[user38]

You can get felt or plastic stick on dots from those dollar stores. I use them all over the place (on my n52, over the eject button on my DVD player, etc).

[LJFHutch]

Paulverisor64 - I totally agree Also, as for the n52, it has glowy blue lights, how can you go past that!

Re A2 - In my opinion if you're into ArmA2 ACE mod is a must.

The top right button on my n52te is giving out, I pulled it apart and cleaned the contacts but it looks like it's probably not going to make it, a shame, and annoying since that's my blur and perspective transform tool button for painting I'll have to give that key layout a go, sounds very useful, and it's always good to get some more use out of the n52. Apparently Razor have released an updated version of the te, though I'm not sure what the changes are, that'll probably be my replacement if this one really does die.

[Vinnart]

Paul: Your welcome. One thing I have found in all the games I play is that it does take some trial, and error to program an N52, or equivilent, and gaming mouse buttons. Once you have it the way it feels comfortable, and logical to muscle memory it will make all the difference in ease of control of the game especially when playing games RT. This speed WILL give you an edge.

Here are my buttons for CM if you cannot open the file:

TOP ROW: (Move Commands)[From left to right]: Fast-Quick-Move-Hunt-Slow

MID ROW: (combat commands) Shift-Target-Assault-Face-Target arc

Bottom Row (Special Commands) Ctrl-F12(very useful camera control to select pevious selected unit)-Hide-Target light(This last bottom right corner key also works good for Aquire.

N52 wheel: Pause (red gear=Zoom camera in and out Z,X keys.)

N52 Side button: Backspace

Thumb pad up.C key (toggle camera wide/zoom)

Thumb pad Back; Reverse

Thumb pad forward: Pop smoke

Thumb Pad down: Shift access to red gear

Space Bar: Access space bar commands

RED GEAR:

Here I have main the alt= key commands for tuning sound, objective ect... on and off along with some of the commands described above.

Other than the above i will use space bar, or GUI to access less used commands such as Administrative. This is a good layout, that is easy to remember ie Move commands are laid out from fastest to slowest. The fingers naturaly fall on the Move-Target-Face commands. The rest of the commands as I said I have programed to the mouse buttons.

User38: Good suggestions for creating distinctive textures of keys. I think I will knock off a couple of glue bumps I made, and add some of your suggestions.

What kills me is having every other key a texture is so practicle, and logical, but yet the manufactures do not see it. My N52 has one textued key which is the center key with a raised plasic bump. Even providing some felt circles, or something with it so one could "mark" keys as desired would be a usefull selling feature.