Onions

[dieseltaylor]

Its interesting what you can learn, about onions from Wkipedia. most particularly and now relevant was this:

The Onion Futures Act, passed in 1958, bans the trading of futures contracts on onions in the United States, after farmers complained about alleged market manipulation by Sam Seigel and Vincent Kosuga at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. It provides economists with a unique case study in the effects of futures trading on agricultural prices. It remains in effect as of 2010[update].

I have heard a few programmes aboutfood price and the benefits of a futures market but not one mentioned this! You see to my mind market manipulation IS a crime - unless you wipe yourself out. Driving other people bankrupt by manipulation - like bribing a weather forecast service surely must be criminal! But this is the USA so ...........

Just to make it easy here is the nub of the Wikipeadia article:

Cornering the market

With his partner Sam Seigel, a fellow onion trader and owner of a local produce company, Kosuga embarked upon a scheme to corner the onion futures market. In the fall of 1955, Seigel and Kosuga bought enough onions and onion futures so that they controlled 98 percent of the available onions in Chicago.[5] Millions of pounds of onions were shipped to Chicago to cover their purchases. By late 1955, they had stored 30,000,000 pounds (14,000,000 kg) of onions in Chicago.[6] They soon changed course and convinced onion growers to begin purchasing their inventory by threatening to flood the market with onions if they did not.[6] Seigel and Kosuga told the growers that they would hold the rest of their inventory in order to support the price of onions.[7]

As the growers began buying onions, Seigel and Kosuga purchased short positions on a large amount of onion contracts.[6] They also arranged to have their stores of onions reconditioned because they had began to spoil. They shipped them outside of Chicago to have them cleaned and then repackaged and re-shipped back to Chicago. The new shipments of onions caused many futures traders to think that there was an excess of onions and further drove down onion prices in Chicago. By the end of the onion season in March 1956, Seigel and Kosuga had flooded the markets with their onions and driven the price of 50 pounds (23 kg) of onions down to 10 cents a bag.[6] In August 1955, the same quantity of onions had been priced at $2.75 a bag.[7] So many onions were shipped to Chicago in order to depress prices that there were onion shortages in other parts of the United States.[8]

Seigel and Kosuga made millions of dollars on the transaction due to their short position on onion futures.[5] At one point, however, 50 pounds (23 kg) of onions were selling in Chicago for less the bags that held them. This drove many onion farmers into bankruptcy.[5] A public outcry ensued among onion farmers who were left with large amounts of worthless inventory.[9] Many of the farmers had to pay to dispose of the large amounts of onions that they had purchased and grown.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Kosuga

[Merkin Muffley]

>they controlled 98 percent of the available onions in Chicago

Blimey! That' shallot.

[abneo3sierra]

I think this should be a crime as well, unfortunately very many people do it, not only in the United States, either. Note the Frenchman arrested not too long ago for manipulating oil prices, as just one example. And most of the biggest opponents in public of "big business" and "capitalism" have been among the worst offenders in this area, bad enough to almost seem as if they are trying to topple the system they speak out against...hmmmm.

IMHO, it should not be profitable to "bet" on a business or industry failing. Invest in their success, certainly, but not betting and manipulating their failure.

[Stalins Organ]

Isn't free trade the basis of the capitalist system that defeated the evil commies?

Ewes yanks aren't suggesting that gub'mint should stop people buying whatever they like with their own money, or with someone else's money somehow obtained are ewes??

[abneo3sierra]

No, not at all suggesting that SO.. IT WOULD BE NICE, however, if people listened to the little switch in their own heads of right and wrong. however. THAT would require belief in a God, however, which seems out of touch a lot of times,thus allowing people to create their own crazy ideas of right,wrong,black,white,and gray.

And the issue is alot deeper than just what Diesel and us have touched with a few words, also...for a bet to be a bet, for example, requires somebody on the other side to bet, also, as well as that in order to sell something, it requires that someone on the other side is actually willing to buy it, etc.

Still, the system is not right, even if you allow for it being probably the best in existence at this time, does not mean there is not room, alot of room, for improvement.

[dieseltaylor]

I think the problem that is often glossed over is that in a perfect market - willing buyer willing seller everything is rosy. Unfortunately the necessary perfect market does not exist if someone manipulates the information or outright lies.

I think the chief problem, other than lack of moral direction, suitable penalties, is that trades are conducted at speed which easily outstrips rational thought and the consideration of information. If trading wer restricted to 30 minutes a day then information and rational consideration could be made before the next dealing session. As it is robo-dealing is generating a huge amount of activity but not any real value.

If I am sounding Luddite it is because we have been lead to believe that speed of things happening is actually some sign of goodness, of quality of thought. I think thats a load of crock.

[abneo3sierra]

I had thought of the same solution actually Diesel... being a person myself who would prefer to think and plan each step, as anyone who has played me H2H in one of these games can attest..I do not like the rush to decide, and usually find that those who put the rush in, do so in hopes of forcing an action that has not been thought out sufficiently.So yes, if trading could occur for a short time each day, then give the rest of time for people to think,research,and better plan, I think it would help the markets and economies overall, while also penalizing the less-than-straightforward methods used by those who use them.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

IT WOULD BE NICE, however, if people listened to the little switch in their own heads of right and wrong. however. THAT would require belief in a God, however, which seems out of touch a lot of times,thus allowing people to create their own crazy ideas of right,wrong,black,white,and gray.

Yes, we should all believe in god so we can tell right from wrong. As someone not familiar with outsourcing my moral compass to an imaginary friend I'm just not sure which religion to pick. Not big on beheadings or child rape. Any suggestions?

[abneo3sierra]

Yes, we should all believe in god so we can tell right from wrong. As someone not familiar with outsourcing my moral compass to an imaginary friend I'm just not sure which religion to pick. Not big on beheadings or child rape. Any suggestions?

Wandering quite far off the topic of onions now, but very quick response...

Beheadings... I am assuming this is your insult to the religion of Islam...do you really think Islam *believes* in that? No, it is people misusing the religion, cannot blame that on the religion.

Child rape, I expect, is your insult to another primary religion of the world, Christianity..and the same thing, cannot use immoral people's misuse of religion which directly goes against that religion's teachings, as an attack on the religion which they are not following to begin with, not to mention that the Catholic version of Christianity is only 1 part of the whole.

So any more of the earth's population to insult, you may want to think before you do, because I probably could come up with some going the other way, if I were that kind of person.

It was religious beliefs which lead people to a "moral" understanding of what is right and what is wrong, keep that in mind, regardless of "imaginary" or not.

[Pešadija]

But abneo, shouldn't mean that people have certain switches of right and wrong already and act (and subscribe to beliefs) based on that? Why did someone do child rape? Because, despite of christianity (that doesn't teach that, as you said), the switch in such people's head is ****ed up.

In short, belief in a god or not is in many ways irrelevant to good morals.

That's my point, I guess.

[abneo3sierra]

But abneo, shouldn't mean that people have certain switches of right and wrong already and act (and subscribe to beliefs) based on that? Why did someone do child rape? Because, despite of christianity (that doesn't teach that, as you said), the switch in such people's head is ****ed up.

In short, belief in a god or not is in many ways irrelevant to good morals.

That's my point, I guess.

I agree with you, to me, the whole point of religion was to somehow enforce that switch, and as you said, it does not seem to actually work in all cases, or maybe even in most cases, in these days.

[Pešadija]

The most positive way to enforce good behavior without being tyrannical about it is showing concretely, in some way, the consequences of certain actions and suffering to people. Empathy is the strongest way. And, if they're unfeeling sociopaths, they'll do bad stuff anyway.

Seriously, being a dick is one of the worst things a person can be, be it from small day-ruinig actions to large scale scams, exploitations, etc.

[abneo3sierra]

Couldn't agree more..and if you are a large enough dick..then there is always beheading, as our friend pointed out

[Pešadija]

Well, that's a quick way out for such people.

[dieseltaylor]

I am an aetheist but do consider myself moral. I do dislike religions believing that without them one is destined to be "immoral".

If we look at Mr Kasuga we can see that being religious is not a preventitive to corrupting actions. Possibly one might argue that because the Catholic religion allows for absolution it is the relligion best fitted for rogues. My non-religion does not provide for that kind of weaseling out.

Please note that war-mongerer Tony Blair became RC after leaving office. If it were only the war ... but he also presided over a unsupportable housing boom and lax policing.

There are many studies on peer-pressure and models of co-operative and loose cannon behaviour. In all of them there is a requirement of penalties to prevent anti-social behaviour. I think we can safely say that punishment is not being enforced and this has helped to a decline in moral behaviour.

I have to say I think the media world can take a lot of credit for bringing about this change. Though big business and corrupt politicians should not go uncredited.

[Pešadija]

Diesel... tried to get the waters calm here... your first statement re-stirs all...

[abneo3sierra]

Diesel, I respect you, and always see in your arguments, even ones I disagree with, a moral, thinking mind. So I did not mean to offend you...I do not believe that religion is required to be "moral"..my only contention, is that "moral" is the main reason for religion to exist.

[Stalins Organ]

.. IT WOULD BE NICE, however, if people listened to the little switch in their own heads of right and wrong. however. THAT would require belief in a God,

That's a pile of bravo sierra - I have no trouble distinguishing right from wrong, and I do not believe in any of the fantasy stuff - imaginary friends, HAARP making earthquakes, chemtrails, NWO, etc.

I am happy my life is much easier not having to worry about all those imaginary ills that might befall me if I don't follw any given pathway through life.

YMMV.

[abneo3sierra]

That "given pathway through life" IS the ability to know right from wrong, and the prevailing attitude you describe of setting up your own definition of right and wrong, is where the problem lays.

[JonS]

for a bet to be a bet, for example, requires somebody on the other side to bet

What would you know about that?

[abneo3sierra]

JonS, good to see you back man. I hope there were no casualties near to you.

[JonS]

GFY

(padding)

[abneo3sierra]

PS. I will be in NZ in the mid-summer and give you a chance to collect on your bet.

[Stalins Organ]

That "given pathway through life" IS the ability to know right from wrong, and the prevailing attitude you describe of setting up your own definition of right and wrong, is where the problem lays.

I didn't describe setting up my own definition of right and wrong at all.

Irreligous societies still have/had laws defining "right and wrong", pagan religions have them - and among various "peoples of the book" there are often different definitions of what constitutes right and wrong to.

The idea that religon (by which I am taking a leap and meaning x-ianity) is a panacea for the human condition is arrant (or maybe arrogant!:mad:) nonsense.

[abneo3sierra]

Your leap, not mine. Note above where I also defended Islam. My point is that religion, INCLUDING your mentioned "pagan religions" are the backbone of what gives people the idea of "right and wrong" Who would decide murder was even wrong, without some religious effect in the background, as animals commit murder all the time?

It is when people decide they need NO religion, that morals suffer. NOt "Christian" Not "Islam" Not "Buddhism" Not "Judaism" nor any of the myriad, ALL of which attempt to give people a "moral compass".