British 17lb'er Question-

[BudGray]

Greetings! First post for me! I played the Close Combat series of RTS game for hours on end, including all the mod. Love 'em! I'm not sure why it took me so long to find the Battlefront series but regardless here I am! <S>

I'm doing a bit of research regarding the British 17lb'er cannon, both as an towed AT cannon and as a tank mounted main gun. I've found most of what I'm looking for except info on the earlier and supposed more predominately used HE round. Does anyone have the info, or are able to point me in a direction for the information I am looking for? Thanks!

[Michael Emrys]

I'm doing a bit of research regarding the British 17lb'er cannon...

Sorry that I can't help you with your specific question, but one small bit of information might ease your way. And that is that in discussing artillery, the conventional way of designating it is not to write "lb'er" but "pdr". This may help you to home in on relevant websites as search engines can be picky about that sort of thing. Good luck on your quest and I hope you will report back on anything you manage to turn up.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

I did turn this up in the Wiki Encyclopedia:

The HE shell initially developed for the 17-pdr lacked power: due to the high-powered cartridge; the shell walls had to be thicker to stand the stresses of firing, leaving less room for explosive. Reducing the size of the propelling charge for the HE shell allowed the use of a thinner-walled and more powerful shell.

Reminiscent of the differences between the 75 mm and the 76 mm shell for the Sherman, but otherwise not terribly informative.

Michael

[flamingknives]

An further alternative would be "pr." which appears in some official documents. Never lber though.

There's a bit of information on HE allowances and usage in this website:

http://nigelef.tripod.com

I doubt you'll find anything about an "earlier and more predominantly used HE shell" however, as the 17pdr was an anti-tank gun and mostly issued AP rounds. (APCBC and APDS)

The WW1 vintage 18pdr was a field gun firing HE and shrapnel, there were two 6pdr guns mounted on tank. The earlier one, mounted on the first tanks, was a naval gun with a short barrel. The later one is that fitted to some Valentines, Churchills and Centaurs, but predominantly used as a towed gun.

[Affentitten]

There's also a thread called something like WWII Ammo loadout questions in this forum where we talked a lot about ammo types for AT guns.

[Noltyboy]

This site has some very knowledgeable people. They might have some of the answers you are looking for. Ask on the RA or technical boards.

Army Rumour Service

[Affentitten]

I'd question whether the HE shell was "more predominantly used". What I can see with a quick Google is that the HE shell was meant to provide some flexibility in the case where the 17 pdr was going to be used as a field support gun. But that would be in extremis only.

[Michael Emrys]

...there were two 6pdr guns mounted on tank. The earlier one, mounted on the first tanks, was a naval gun with a short barrel. The later one is that fitted to some Valentines, Churchills and Centaurs, but predominantly used as a towed gun.

Late model Crusaders also sported the 6 pdr. I think the only model of the Centaur to see action was the close support version with the 95 mm gun.

Michael

[Sergei]

The correct form is '6 £er'. Pronounced 'quidder'.

You're welcome!

[Michael Emrys]

Will someone please throw Sergei in the lake? I think a nice, long swim might help him relax.

Michael

[flamingknives]

At this time of year, the journey through a foot of ice would probably help as well.

True WRT the Crusader MkIII, Probably true on the Centaur. It was originally intended to be the main armament on the Cromwell too (the Centaur is really a Cromwell with a less powerful engine) but the utility of HE was proven in the desert and Cromwell was fitted with a 75mm weapon based on the 6pdr.

The 17pdr, in whichever mount, was a tank-killer at least until 1945 so HE issue was limited, so I'd like to know where the idea of HE being an earlier nature comes from. Is there some artefact in the Close Combat games that would give this impression.

Perhaps it's a confusion with the initial deployment of the 17pdr ordnance on the 25pdr carriage?

[BudGray]

Thanks for the "lb'er/pdr" correction.

Thanks for the information, fellas. This I know: there were 3 different 17 pdr HE rounds manufactured. The first had a thicker than typical warhead to be able to withstand the a-typical stress because of barrel rifling twist and velocity. Likewise, the first version of the 17 pdr had smaller amounts of TNT loaded than most other contemporary 75mm and 76mm rounds.

I can find actual data on the late war 17 pdr Mk III HE, but not the original Mk I HE. I have a lead from a fellow in another forum as well, I do thank all for their help!

[Stalins Organ]

Hogg's "British & American Artillery of WW2 has a little info on the Shell, HE, Mk1T for the 17 pdr - propelling charge 7lb 2 oz, 15.4 lb, 2875 ft/sec (viz 2900 f/s for AP & APC)

There are some cross sections of 17 pdr HE shells here - looks like the early one is the bottom of the 3?

[John Kettler]

BudGray,

Welcome aboard! This should answer your question quite nicely, since it gives the bursting charge weights for both types of 17 pdr HE projectiles, together with lots of other good stuff. http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75:17-pounder-anti-tank-gun&catid=40:anti-tank&Itemid=58

Regards,

John Kettler