V1.04 Techs

[Pacestick]

Hello

I am playing my first game of world at war using V1.04 and have struck a first. Over one year into the war and the Germans have not received a single tech advance. The Japanes are a little better off in that they have recently received two techs despite both powers being heavily invested and on max chits for most of that period. My opponent says the allied powers are receiving techs at a usual rate.

I am wondering if anyone else is haveing a tough time with German techs using V1.04 or if I have just been very unlucky.

Any comments welcome.

[SeaMonkey]

You must be new to SC! This reminds me of some posts back in the SC1 days. Do you want to take it from here John...aka JDF2?

Consistent with the SC series, inconsistent tech advances....."Its in the Game".

[Scook]

Hehe, doesn't matter what version you are on, luck happens. I still debate about fixes for tech advances, sometimes I like the "weighted" randomness we have and sometimes I would like a more consistent approach. Right now, you will have some games with no tech hits, others, the Panthers will roll across the Russian border in 1941.

[Pacestick]

I know luck plays a big part in the arrival of techs and I am used to the vagrancies of the game. I have never gone over a year of game time without a single tech before with the previous versions and was wondering if techs had been tweaked. Has anyone else noticed if German techs are harder to come by was my query.

[Scook]

So far, no. It seems normal as of now.

[SeaMonkey]

If I don't get tech advances, I just build units, sometimes the whole allotment, except for BBs and CVs. What's good about the randomness is you're guided to a different unit mix. If you're getting aircraft techs you build an air heavy Order of Battle, Naval Warfare, goes with both air and naval, IW and HT, go with the ground pounders.

It all works out, you get what the game and your opponent gives you and orient your strategies accordingly. What's wrong with that?:confused:

[Pacestick]

I think Seamonkey has hit the nail on the head, I will just have to adjust my strategy on what the game has given me. Does anyone know at what part of an IS2 you aim your arian bow and arrow at :-)

[Catacol Highlander]

Peter - by the time your boys have found the punching power to penetrate the turret front of my IS-2s I'll have T55s out the hutch anyway. I'd evacuate to Brazil right away :-P

[SeaMonkey]

Well Pace, it doesn't work everytime, but if you examine the CTVs, you'll be able to ascertain what unit and tech you need to concentrate on for the counter. Of course Cat had a good suggestion, down to instincts, "Fight or Flight", might be advisable to buy some time.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

You must be new to SC! This reminds me of some posts back in the SC1 days. Do you want to take it from here John...aka JDF2?

Consistent with the SC series, inconsistent tech advances....."Its in the Game".

As I've said before, the only way to minimize the effects of luck on teching, with the current system, would be to crank the chance per chit up to high levels, with a corresponding hike in the cost per chit. Say you can buy a maximum of 2 chits per category, 25% chance each (or 25/20 if you like), cost quintupled, which means about 500 MPPs per chit or so. So now you can invest where you like, with a virtual guaranteed short term payoff, but you have to pay through the nose for the privelege. My attempts to convince the two main Global modmakers of the wisdom of this approach has fallen on deaf ears, alas, as they prefer, nay worship at the altar of, the lottery system instead.

For newbies, Hubert has been very favorably inclined towards changing to a progressive tech system (somewhat similar to Civilization's, with randomizers built in, where you can see how close you are to the payoff), but I doubt it will go into any SC2 iteration.

[Catacol Highlander]

Seamonkey - you have clearly never played Pacestick. He is as likely to put his forces into retreat for any reason as Scotland are to beat the All Blacks the next time they play! It hurts me to say that by the way, as it much as it hurts me to confess that Pacestick's do or die strategy often reaps him the right result. For precisely this reason I will be counting no chickens whatever in our game, and until Red Army tanks are driving though the streets of Berlin I will remain on the edge of my seat...

[SeaMonkey]

I hear you John, loud and clear and by far your take on this "back in the day" was the best approach I've seen yet. How about enabling that link to the discussion algorithm you so eloquently developed? I want to keep that fresh in everyones mind, especially HC.

Currently testing Nupremal's mod, once again, level 5 techs occurred before 1942, once for Germans, anti-tank, and the other the Japanese IW. This is with 1 chit max at 150 MPPs per chit. When these two early aggressor nations get these kind of advances this soon, it really is a game breaker and completely sends even a well balanced scenario awry.

[Catacol Highlander]

Tech advance % need to be reduced to slow their rate of advance. The current 5 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 should be put back to 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1. It wont remove the chances of outrageous luck, but it will slow progress down overall so that advances are more spread out and combat in between each advance has a chance to develop. I havent played the Nupremal Mod yet, but with the cap taken off AT does this not help negate the power of armour? Slightly more concerned at what it may do to tac bombers, but having not played the mod yet I cannot comment on that.

Armour and Tac Bombers should also be more expensive in the vanilla game - they are totally dominant and far too cheap to purchase.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Oh don't worry Hubert hasn't forgotten (if I may speak for him), but even as a very amateur programmer I know how hard it is to revamp something like this towards the end of a game dev cycle-he would have to queue up a whole big round of playtesting for starters. It will have to wait for SC3, even if tech is pretty much recognized as broken after all is said and done. The main issue is that a scenario designer can't affect the maximum and minimum research cycles. Here it is anyway: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=65151&highlight=algorithm

I'll throw out one more idea, and then I'll shut up. Can you buy more than one chit per turn per category? If not, then let tech ramp up as 0/0/0/0/20%. This will make for a minimum of a 5 turn dev cycle, ensure that if you really want it, you'll get it, but only after substantial investment and a guaranteed delay.

[Checking] Looks like Hubert would need to provide three new options in the editor: you can only buy one chit per turn, increase the maximum number of chits to preferably 20, and ALL chits are consumed after a payoff. The 2nd one would be problematic tho as the in-game screen would have to be substantially revamped, but even the other two changes would be an improvement. With 20, you would invest say 25 MPP per turn for 20 turns (500 total), with the chances ramping up progressively like 0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/0/1/1/1/1/1/2/4/8/16/32. Even with 5 it can go 0/0/0/5/10. But of course you have to playtest it, gotta make sure the AI can handle it, etc. etc.

[SeaMonkey]

Good ideas JDF2, I kind of like the "20" option as that is about the number of turns per year, so assured, an advance per annum.

Perhaps one change would be the catch up multiplier, opponents level minus your current level, so when a player is behind by two tech levels there is an appreciable chance of obtaining the next level(a two multiplier)sooner. If you're only behind by one level then you need to plow ahead with research at the current model times 1 multiplier, it reduces an incentive to wait and keeps the game more competitive as neither side will maintain a large tech level advantage for long.