Crusader and Matilida 2pdr ammo

[Lt Belenko]

The 2pdr on these tanks only had AP rounds. Any reason HE was not produced/distributed?

[JasonC]

Doctrine was to use the coaxial MG for anything but enemy armor.

The explosive in a small 1 pound shell is nothing to write home about anyway.

The explosive charge in a US 37mm HE shell was 39 grams. That is about 1.5 ounces, compared to 2 ounces in a US "frag" WW II era and 4 ounces in the German stick grenade. (A modern US frag has 6.5 ounces of HE filler).

So you get less explosive power than a typical hand grenade, and then you get a much less circular dispersion pattern of the fragments (long oval along the line of fire ahead of the impact point), from the shell's prior velocity.

(For comparison, the HE filler of a German 50L42 shell was about 6 ounces...)

HE rounds were actually made for them, but weren't widely distributed because they were deemed ineffective.

When the US wanted effective anti personnel firepower from its comparable gun, the 37mm, it used canister. Which was limited in range but effective against personnel.

[dieseltaylor]

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73:2-pounder-anti-tank-gun&catid=40:anti-tank&Itemid=58

Is thorough about the matter. Bizarrely the production of HE rises late war. I am wondering if that is to do with pom-poms and/or MGB's. The answer for that is not on the site

[JasonC]

I doubt they'd confuse 40mm AA ammuntion with 2 pdr ammo, and the numbers are way too low to be pom poms. It is 800k HE vs. 20 million AP, with about 10% of the AP advanced late war types (mostly just capped).

The reason is probably due to the German defenders running low or out of armor. I mean the fighting in Italy e.g. featured a lot more infantry action, compared to the western desert.

The items sporting them also shifted later in the war to armored cars, rather than towed pieces of main battle tanks. Which may have created a higher demand for anti infantry shooting.

[dieseltaylor]

Agreed its not much HE but given the 2pdr was pretty much gone from tanks and as an ATG it does seem bizarre. Armoured cars would seem the likely answer though there was not a huge number of those armed with 2pdrs I suppose 2000rds per car is not too odd.

[JasonC]

There were pretty large numbers of Daimler AC with 2 pdr main armament, and small numbers of other types (AEC Mk I, Coventry). Tanks with 2 pdr main armament also continued in service in the far east, where armored anything was useful and there weren't any Japanese threats superior to it in main gun terms. Also, some of the 2 pdr HE may have been supplied to Russia for its fleet of 2 pdr Valentines, which the Canadians continued to make for them. I think the service life supply per vehicle was probably more like 100-200 with those considerations, not 1000 plus.

[Sheppy]

HE rounds were actually made for them, but weren't widely distributed because they were deemed ineffective.

When the US wanted effective anti personnel firepower from its comparable gun, the 37mm, it used canister. Which was limited in range but effective against personnel.

personally read enough accounts of Stuarts using the "squirrel gun" to shoot infantry positions up particularly reinforced defenses.

it was mistake to use "blast" for the weapon in game. the charge is to help promote frag through structures such as stone.

[Stalins Organ]

IIRC wartime HE production was for the USSR - who specifically asked for it - and for British armoured cars - the ones without LJ adaptors would have HE "up the spout" as there was little point in them using AP by then - the LJ ones would ahve AP..

New Zealanders (Valentines) and Australians (Matildas) used "home made" HE in the Pacific combining Bofors 40mm projectiles with 2 pdr cases.

the Aussie AT unit in Singapore also had HE - there is mention of them using it vs Japanese tanks in a history of their action I read many eyars ago. They had it because they were not expected to see any tanks, so they would need HE to fulfil the expected infantry support role!

However the AP was not removed, and they initially used that - but it had no apparent effect - or at least didn't set the Japanese tanks on fire, whereas the HE did.

Also IIRC a thread in one or other CM forums that noted that early war 2 pdr guns had a set of storage clips that were a different size for HE?

[Stalins Organ]

Woot - found it here - it's about 20% or 25% down the page - just search for "explosive" or "H.E.".

Not quite exactly as I recalled - they used AP to start, and had to get the HE "bought up from the rear, and no mention of being intended for infantry support that I can see....but never mind - there's 2 pdr HE in use in 1942