Javelins or other AT weapons?

[undercovergeek]

Playing Al Rawl under 1.21 - i have hit the first tank parked outside the mosque 8 times now, admittedly with the default AT weapon and not a javelin from the strykers, and 2 hits from the heavy weapons based strykers too - its indestructible - are the javelins much more powerful than then AT34(?)s

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Depends on what type of tank it is, I can't recall off hand. But frontally, pretty much anything is going to struggle, including the 105mm from the MGS.

The Javelin is so much more effective because it attacks from the top which is nowhere near so heavily armoured.

[Inkompetent]

Nothing; literally NOTHING that is man-portable can compare with a Javelin in power. You'll have to step it up to helicopter-carried Hellfires to start beating it in destructive capability.

The AT4 is a direct attack single-stage HEAT warhead capable of penetrating about 350mm RHA. The Javelin is a fire-and-forget top-attack missile with a tandem HEAT warhead capable of penetrating 600mm RHA at the vehicle's least armoured part rather than side or front armour: the top.

Simply put: Unless scoring lucky side hits, or getting to attack from the rear, you can't destroy a MBT with AT4s. You can damage it, maybe get a mobilization kill or destroy its optics and damage some weaponry, but you won't ever achieve total destruction of the tank.

The Javelin on the other hand one-shots every single MBT in the world unless they have active protection like SHTORA or something else that literally shoots it out of the sky before it hits.

As for the 105mm on the Strykers, assuming they used APFSDS rounds, even if they penetrate you might not notice the effect. The tank doesn't have to start smoking or exploding, but you might have killed the crew with spalling without noticing it. Non the less, the 105mm is not guaranteed to penetrate a T-72 or T-64 who have sufficient armour.

[Damian90]

The Javelin on the other hand one-shots every single MBT in the world unless they have active protection like SHTORA or something else that literally shoots it out of the sky before it hits.

Nope, TSzU-1-7 Shtora (Curtain) is soft kill APS, and preatty old, it can't jam targeting system of FGM-148 because Javelin have passive thermal targeting system. Also there is no currently used hard kill APS that can shoot down Javelin, even deployed by IDF on currently all new produced Merkava Mk.4 ASPRO-A/Trophy APS can't shoot down Javelin, because of anti threat devices can't get such high + elevation to hot javelin with it trajectory of attack. Besides Shtora have even problems with SACLOS targeting systems with coded laser beams or other such upgrades.

As for the 105mm on the Strykers, assuming they used APFSDS rounds, even if they penetrate you might not notice the effect. The tank doesn't have to start smoking or exploding, but you might have killed the crew with spalling without noticing it. Non the less, the 105mm is not guaranteed to penetrate a T-72 or T-64 who have sufficient armour.

Acutally 105mm APFSDS ammo (more modern variants) can achieve perforation of armor on T-72A's and T-64A's, especially on glacis plate, more problem would be with T-64B and it's most modern variant T-64BM Bulat and with T-72B's in all sub variants.

[Jonny(FGM)]

The AT4 is a direct attack single-stage HEAT warhead capable of penetrating about 350mm RHA. The Javelin is a fire-and-forget top-attack missile with a tandem HEAT warhead capable of penetrating 600mm RHA at the vehicle's least armoured part rather than side or front armour: the top.

I once took out a T-72 (i think, may have been a t-62) with an AT-4 from the front, i was amazed! The squad had a jav, and i was aiming for them to be using that, imagine my horror when they let off the AT-4 instead of the jav and then my surprise as the the T-72 burst into flames : )

They were in an elevated position so they may have got onto the top armour, but even then you'd expect the angle of impact to make up for the thinner top armor

[Wodin]

Being new to the modern war battlefield I was amazed at the destrucitve power of Javelins...I was playing a scenario where there was a massive armoured assault on a small blue infantry force...I was struggling until I realised I should go check out my stryker's for weapons...low and behold lots of Javelins....before long what was a desperate situation for the Americans had turned into hell on earth for those Syrians....scrap metal everywhere...Syrians surrendered...

I did love watching those slow takeoffs then watching the beauty power on up then drop straightdown on to the top of those T72's and BMP3's...missile after missile...marvalous..my favourite animation in the game

[dan/california]

It really is like the carrying around the Hammer or Thor.

[undercovergeek]

thanks all, now the big question, restart and use my ignorance as justification or sprint for the javelins and try and rescue the situation?

on another note, is it more advisable to acquire the javs from the stryker and form an AT team or just leave the squad intact?

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Continue, of course.

The battle where you have to recover from a reversal are the most fun. Tactically I am at my best when "in the shlt".

As for Javelin use, I tend to keep some with the squad to make them flexible. Nothing quite as embarrassing as running in to a tank with your lead units when the follow on waaay back have all the ATGMs. Typically, I've got 1 or 2 with the infantry squads and the rest as overwatch in the hands of supporting units like the HQ or MG units.

[Inkompetent]

I once took out a T-72 (i think, may have been a t-62) with an AT-4 from the front, i was amazed! The squad had a jav, and i was aiming for them to be using that, imagine my horror when they let off the AT-4 instead of the jav and then my surprise as the the T-72 burst into flames : )

They were in an elevated position so they may have got onto the top armour, but even then you'd expect the angle of impact to make up for the thinner top armor

Well, yes. It CAN happen. Either it was a lucky hit on the turret ring, or you got top-down angle on it. My saying of that AT4s can't KILL tanks is more to make sure that's never ever the plan by anyone. You can distract it with AT4s from the front, you can even destroy its sights and make it blind, but the odds for a kill are so low it's not worth having that as intention

@Damian90

Yes, both Shtora, Arena and other passive and active systems can defeat a Javelin and are becoming more common on today's battlefield. But let me rephrase myself: Nothing in the world can survive a top-down HIT from a Javelin. It's all about preventing it from doing so.

Speaking of that, are there any nice articles or stuff for links for Shtora vs Javelins, if any such public information exists?

[Jonny(FGM)]

: Nothing in the world can survive a top-down HIT from a Javelin. It's all about preventing it from doing so.

Again tanks CAN survive javelins, you could get really (un)lucky and have the jav hit at a point where there is nothing too vital, and it will usually happen when it's your last javelin and you really really need to take out that tank.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

I recall a thread where a Javelin plunged right down on to the tanks DShK. No kill. Hehe.

[undercovergeek]

do the pixel troops have to be IN a strker to acquire or can they be standing right next to it?

and the restart is cancelled, im going to try and rescue the situation, everyone is abandoning the roof tops and pegging it back to the strykers for the right tank killer - brilliant game, the more so because i didnt expect to enjoy it - bought as UI practice for the CM:N release, simply could not get used to the cameras - someone posted that when the cam controls clicked so would enjoyment of the game - very immersive, very bonded to my pixel troops even though theyre US - IF i can turn this situation round ill buy the Brits as a reward

[Inkompetent]

Again tanks CAN survive javelins, you could get really (un)lucky and have the jav hit at a point where there is nothing too vital, and it will usually happen when it's your last javelin and you really really need to take out that tank.

Quite probable against a fast-moving tank as well, so if they detect the launch or just maneuvering fast it could be pretty likely. Other than that it'd try to hit center mass. Still, the probability for BOTH the tank and the crew to survive is ridicilously small.

[Sivodsi]

do the pixel troops have to be IN a strker to acquire or can they be standing right next to it?

Yes, you have to load them into the vehicle, find the 'acquire' button, and be sure to select the CLU if your troops don't already have one, then extra missiles, as nec.

No probs with regular Stryker units, but javs can be frustrating with the marines because although your AAV has javelins on board, it doesn't have the CLU, so those desperately needed weapons can remain tantalizingly unusable if you don't have the jav unit.

Def worth getting the British and the Marines, you get a huge variety of toys to muck about with, and with the Marines you get some cool Syrian gear (BMP3 + T90).

[Sivodsi]

I recall a thread where a Javelin plunged right down on to the tanks DShK. No kill. Hehe.

Yeah I had that and still have the pickies on my hard drive. It was on a fast moving T72 and the screenshot showed the point of ignition as right on the mg.

Very frustrating as it happened in a PBEM. IIRC it was recognized as a bug that has since been squashed.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Nah, the way the damage was distributed was a bit iffy (the track damage "consolation prize") otherwise it seemed okay.

[undercovergeek]

thankyou for everyones help on this, played 3 turns last night - 3 mins was all it took to remove the terror of the mosque that took 8 AT shots, one well placed Javelin was all it took, and another squad across the map took out a tank i didnt even know was there