Tips on medium combined forces scenario 2P/TCP?

[Gurra]

Yes, anyone? Perhaps emphasis on infantry with support and assault guns? I know I can search on the appropriate sites, but I was looking for something straight out of the horses mouth, so to speak.

thanks in advance!

[womble]

It depends a bit on other info: the map; the points range; what battle type it is; which side you're playing. So, apologies if this is an egg-sucking lesson...

1. Generally a good infantry backbone is mandatory. At least 1/3 of your points should be in infantry.
   
2. Something with 75mm or more of HE chucking to hammer strongpoints. Heavy buildings can hold you up. Direct Fire HE is the best way of winkling the enemy out of foxholes and trenches.
   
3. Something to deal with any armour your opponent may succeed in employing at standoff ranges. Infantry can usually deal with armour at close-quarters, but a human player will try and keep any armoured assets out of range of man-portable AT. Personally I favour a tank, just a cheap one. See the bit about transport below; the advantage of tanks is they have their own prime mover and aren't so easy to machine-gun down. They can handily fulfill the need for DF HE, also, depending on what year and what nation you're using.
   
4. A bit of transport for your support squads/towed arty if the battle is liable to move at all, or take place far from your start line. No point having that AT gun to deal with his tank if it avoids your keyhole siting. No point having those extra HMG squads if they can't make the battle line because they're exhausted.
   
5. If the battle is liable to be static, some off-board artillery might be worth it; for my points, though, another assault gun is more versatile and predictable in its outcomes.
   
6. Similarly, mortars, for me, are overpriced for their effectiveness, especially on a moving battlefield. That could just be cos I'm rubbish at using them, though they don't seem to come with enough ammo to make a difference even if I could guarantee having them ready for every opportunity, compared to the 2 or more MGs you can get for the cost. Good against open-topped vehicles though, so if you're defending against the Germans...
   

Hope that's at least some help...

[Gurra]

Womble, that was a good answer! I realize I was a little bit unclear: I was just asking for a tip on a specific scenario, with good play balance and so forth.

But that was useful anyway! Thanks

[womble]

Womble, that was a good answer! I realize I was a little bit unclear: I was just asking for a tip on a specific scenario, with good play balance and so forth.

But that was useful anyway! Thanks

Heh. [looks sheepish] I can see how woefully I misunderstood the question there...

[Michael Emrys]

Similarly, mortars, for me, are overpriced for their effectiveness, especially on a moving battlefield. That could just be cos I'm rubbish at using them, though they don't seem to come with enough ammo to make a difference even if I could guarantee having them ready for every opportunity, compared to the 2 or more MGs you can get for the cost. Good against open-topped vehicles though, so if you're defending against the Germans...

I don't know, I've had pretty good luck with mortars. They do have their limitations though. Light mortars are good for taking out or at least suppressing a pesky MG until your leg guys can cross some critical terrain. They can also drop smoke to mask movement. IIRC, heavy off-map mortars are cheaper than arty of the same caliber. I guess that as usual, it all depends on the mission and situation.

Michael

[JasonC]

The trick to using mortars is to know how much fire is enough.

If you just fire away as soon as you have a target, they will be completely dry in 4 minutes or so, and they will have pinned or broken one enemy unit. That isn't nothing but it also isn't much. And if the pinned rather than broke it, and it rallies after 5 to 8 minutes, you are out one shooter and they lost a bit of time and a couple men from one unit, that is still in action.

Instead, with the 81mm variety, fire at a target for just one minute. Then stop or switch to another target. Pick targets in woods cover where possible, and never bother shooting them at buildings.

With 50mm or 60mm varieties, fire with a pair of them for 1 minute. Or, in a pinch, fire for 2 minutes with a 60mm (less than optimal). Either will generally pin the target.

It is a waste to continue firing light mortar ammo at an already pinned target. They aren't going to wipe it out completely with their remaining ammo load. A higher ammo shooter like an HMG is better to "maintain the pin" against rally. If you don't have one, wait until the shooter recovers and shoots again himself, which may take 3-4 minutes. Then pin him again.

This way, a single 81mm mortar will neutralize 3 enemies over the course of the fight, typically. A pair of 60mm will neutralize 4 typically, and a pair of Russian high ammo 50mm could pin 10 different units in succession (or, more realistically, 5 units twice each, since they won't get more than a pin) if they get the targets and remain unmolested that long. The 81mm variety is far more likely to actual break 1-2 of its targets, and will also typically get off one minor smoke operation to take a single enemy shooter out of an important firefight.

That is a perfectly adequate return from each mortar.

The highest return comes from actually KOing a key enemy heavy PAK, and gun destruction is the highest priority of mortars. But used right they can pay for themselves even in ordinary infantry combat, using the above technique.

When do you fire them? Not as soon as you can, that is the wrong answer. You want the unit they pin to die as a result of being pinned by the mortar. Whether because an HMG can keep up the pin, or it happens with friendly infantry closing in, about 200 yards out. Or because it happens in the "mad minute" that decides overall momentum. Think of them as a trump card you hold that can surgically remove key enemy shooters at the most vital time.

Naturally, to do all of that you have to make sure you don't get them killed moving around in the open under enemy observation. They should be firing from full defilade with an HQ spotter in cover. Closer is better - the mortars hit significantly harder at 200 yards or so, than at 500, because there are so many more close hits. But don't expose them to infantry fire getting there, and plan ahead to have them ready, covering the area you expect to get hot, before the mad minute arrives...

[womble]

The trick to using mortars is to know how much fire is enough.

When do you fire them? Not as soon as you can, that is the wrong answer. You want the unit they pin to die as a result of being pinned by the mortar. Whether because an HMG can keep up the pin, or it happens with friendly infantry closing in, about 200 yards out. Or because it happens in the "mad minute" that decides overall momentum. Think of them as a trump card you hold that can surgically remove key enemy shooters at the most vital time.

That's excellent advice: don't pin 'em using mortars until you can take advantage of the pin. Getting one of your units out of a pin is usually not sufficient advantage, I estimate, but getting the target killed because of the mortar pin is.

Naturally, to do all of that you have to make sure you don't get them killed moving around in the open under enemy observation. They should be firing from full defilade with an HQ spotter in cover. Closer is better - the mortars hit significantly harder at 200 yards or so, than at 500, because there are so many more close hits. But don't expose them to infantry fire getting there, and plan ahead to have them ready, covering the area you expect to get hot, before the mad minute arrives...

Yeah, that's where I'm struggling. It may have been a different morale model in CMAK, but I had a pair of 81mm mortars in a complete flap for some reason, so they wouldn't get into their rides when I sent them back to get 'em. They kept sneaking away. They'd gotten exhausted, but I never saw any enemy effects in their area, and it was a long way short of the enemy deployment zone. That's just one extrme example, but I find it difficult to maneuver mortars and their spotters to the right place at the right time. I'm sure I'll improve with practice

[juan_gigante]

I am a huge fan of mortars. If I'm attacking with, say, a battalion of infantry, I'll want 2 or 3 batteries of 81mm mortars on gun-killing duty. They pick a good spot, either in my deployment zone or not that far forward, and they usually don't move from there once established, until well into the battle and I have safe lanes for them to travel forwards. I believe that guns are the second most frightening tool a defender has, after uberarmor tanks, and killing guns as soon as they open up is one of my top priorities. Nothing can ruin an advance like a 150mm gun opening up on infantry. I also like to liberally sprinkle in 50/60mm mortars in the main body of troops, which move along with the main body and then stop when they get to a good spot to overwatch from. I use these guys to take out targets of opportunity - to get a key enemy MG to put its head down, to help establish fire superiority in the first turn or two of an infantry firefight, to get guns in remote key-holes that the 81s farther back can't see. I am more liberal with ammo use with the 50s than the 81s - for starters, the 50s usually have more of it, and being farther forward are more likely to die before they get the rounds off. The 81s I also like to save some ammo because if a battle stalls and turns into a slug fest, the guy with rounds left to fire with 5 turns to go has a distinct advantage over the guy who is dry, and it can be enough of an advantage to break the enemy in the few final frantic turns of a battle. I rarely buy FO modules anymore - on-map mortars are so much more reactive, so much more accurate, and are basically just as good at killing hammer/eggshell targets like guns. What do FOs do better than mortars? Hurting platoon sized positions? Sure, if it lands on target and they haven't moved back to a second line in the time between when I identify the position and when rounds land. And my T-34s and SP guns probably (hopefully) have plenty of HE to do the same thing, but as with mortars, quicker and more accurately.