Question on exhaustion.....

[stoex]

It is most certainly dangerous for the firer (to a degree) to fire even small arms against solid walls from close range, due to the possibility of plaster or concrete shrapnel hitting him. Not something I would want to do, anyway! But also not what I'm stipulating for CMSF - I would like a command similar to 'target smoke' for Chally's. A special target order that causes units to only use their demo charges on the specified target (call it 'target blast'). Really what I would like is some fix that separates blasting from movement, thereby giving the player more flexibility when using demo charges in-game.

I have also come up with the possibility of a possibility of a workaround for the 'no-LOS-problem' regarding solid walls...the game engine (since the brit module, anyway) supports firing certain weapons at places not in LOS (the brit HQ mortar). I don't know how those mechanics work under the hood, but maybe this could be made to work for demo charges in solid-walled building complexes in some way...

Just a thought

[lomir]

stoex,

Sorry, my bad. Thanks for making the 'area target inside buildings' clearer and thanks for the trick to easily place target lines in upper floors next door. But now I see why it didn't work in my 5-minutes-test compound: from the first floor of the building where the waypoint is you can area target all the floors (level 1, 2, 3 and roof) of the building to its right. But from the second and third floor you can't area fire none of them. In the level 1 of both buildings there are doors on each side of the party wall, but on the level 2 and 3 there is a door in the wall of the left building and a window on the middle of the wall of the right building! - you can actually see it in the picture. It seems that you can't use area fire through a wall under this circumstances. So the plot is getting thicker... stoex, I can send you that small scenario by e-mail if you want to test it

A workaround regarding the lack of LOS regarding solid walls that it could be used, but I don't know at all how difficult it would be to implement, is making the new Target Blast (a combat command) to work under the hood as a move command with a maximum distance limit of one grid around when selecting the target. So we would have all the good things of the area target command stated before and we wouldn't have any solid wall's problem since the move commands don't check for LOS. Or maybe it is more easy than we are thinking to make an special area target command that ignores solid walls, I don't know :confused:

I don't think we'll see it in CM:SF, though. For CM:N and beyond I think it would be even more useful - specially to use some demo charge devices on tanks, but I don't know if the working hours of Charles just dedicated to do this are worthy for BFC. But definitely I think it's something that would be good to have another look at in the future CMx2 engine.

Cheers,

Lomir

P.S. Does someone know how to edit your login name? my lower case "L" looks like an "I" :mad:

[stoex]

lomir,

Sorry about misspelling your name there...I did actually wonder while typing it whether it was 'l' or 'I', but didn't think to check your profile, where your name appears in a different font, making it clear.

Unfortunately, you can't change your login name yourself AFAIK. Maybe you can talk Steve or Moon into doing this for you, I seem to remember it being done before on occasion.

Anyway, as you say, the plot thickens...I would be happy if you would send me your setup via email, as I will have time over the weekend to do some extensive testing on this issue, seeing as how it has become quite intriguing . I have my own test scenario of course, but since changing walls is a bit of a nuisance, I'll be glad to have a ready version of a different setup than my own to play with. Lots of combinations of walls are possible, however, so it's going to be a long haul to make a conclusive test...

Finally, since we are talking about blasting etc...(and we have utterly hijacked this 'exhaustion' thread already ), I hope that in CM:N there will be a change in AI behaviour regarding empty bunkers and pillboxes. Meaning I wish infantry wouldn't waste their explosives and grenades on empty fortifications while walking by, except if told to do so. Important since we will be seeing far more such fortifications in CM:N than in CM:SF.

I also hope Steve eventually reads this thread .

[Gen. J-sun]

I had an odd exhaustion situation with a mortar team, while test firing I added 14 more rounds (for a total of 40) and gave them a move order 9m in the openning turn and set up shop after firing 14 rounds I had them withdraw 4m to the back of the trench. As soon as they reached the waypoint instant exhaustion, I had another test going which continued for about 20 minutes with no improvement from them. I'd say exhaustion is a bit excessive for an extra 28 pounds distributed over 4 guys.

[Apocalypse 31]

I've done 12 hour clearing operations in Baghdad when it was 127 degrees out. Wearing about 80lbs of body armor and equipment will make you feel like death. We drank lots of water and tried to ensure we were drinking a least 1oz of gatoraid for every 3 oz of water. I had Soldiers straight up pass out while on patrol. It was brutal.

We used to joke around and pour out water bottles on our Stryker hatches and literally watch the water evaporate.

I have not been to Afghanistan, yet. I've done some mountain climbing in preparation (we ended up coming back to Iraq, instead) and I can tell you that it is brutal. We trained with small climbs, mostly 3000-5000 ft climbs, but while I was doing it I couldnt imagine fighting an enemy.

[Sgt Joch]

P.S. Does someone know how to edit your login name? my lower case "L" looks like an "I" :mad:

email Steve, He can fix it for you.

[lomir]

Psst! Where is Steve? :confused: I'll write him regarding this when he'll be back... But I heard... ssh! I heard that last time he was seen he was about to take a flight to Damascus where he was going to be decorated for something...

[meade95]

Question? Does "fitness" levels differ between until status level (Conscript thru Elite) as well as obviously through there given fitness rating (unfit - fit).

Meaning is an "elite" unit that is labled "fit", does this unit have more stamina than a "green" unilt labled as "fit". I would suspect (and hope) this to be the case.

Curious.

[YankeeDog]

Question? Does "fitness" levels differ between until status level (Conscript thru Elite) as well as obviously through there given fitness rating (unfit - fit).

Meaning is an "elite" unit that is labled "fit", does this unit have more stamina than a "green" unilt labled as "fit". I would suspect (and hope) this to be the case.

Curious.

I could be wrong about this, but ISTR from stuff Steve posted a long time ago (as in around original release) is that fitness and experience/training are entirely independent of each other -- i.e., the game models a "fit" conscript as equal to a "fit" elite soldier as far as how quickly he fatigues, etc.

Fine with me. While this means scenario designers should definitely usually adjust fitness levels appropriately, there's no reason why you couldn't have a highly fit conscript (e.g., someone from a life background that gives them a high level of fitness), or even an unfit elite soldier (most likely example of this would be a unit that has been in the field for a long time under difficult conditions, with cumulative fatigue, exposure etc. taking a toll).

[Sergei]

Also the high fitness level of an elite unit shouldn't be just that they can do more pressups, but also that after 24 hours of constant fighting they still keep going like Duracell bunnies. Well trained, lethally armed Duracell bunnies... meanwhile a conscript unit might already be suffering from shell shock and would be both dogtired and demoralized.

[meade95]

I could be wrong about this, but ISTR from stuff Steve posted a long time ago (as in around original release) is that fitness and experience/training are entirely independent of each other -- i.e., the game models a "fit" conscript as equal to a "fit" elite soldier as far as how quickly he fatigues, etc.

Fine with me. While this means scenario designers should definitely usually adjust fitness levels appropriately, there's no reason why you couldn't have a highly fit conscript (e.g., someone from a life background that gives them a high level of fitness), or even an unfit elite soldier (most likely example of this would be a unit that has been in the field for a long time under difficult conditions, with cumulative fatigue, exposure etc. taking a toll).

While I certainly agree there can / could be very well conditioned, fit "conscript" level soldiers out there (and there certainly are)....I don't like the concept on the whole that CMSF decides / sims that an "elite" level "fit" solider is considered the same fitness as that over the average "fit" solider.

Though, you maybe correct, in that when designing scearios.....to really take this into account and make more of the opposing forces unfit.....(though, I just don't agree completely with that idea or find it to ring true enough).

Maybe another level of fitness (above simply fit) could be tweaked / added in??

[YankeeDog]

Though, you maybe correct, in that when designing scearios.....to really take this into account and make more of the opposing forces unfit.....(though, I just don't agree completely with that idea or find it to ring true enough).

Maybe another level of fitness (above simply fit) could be tweaked / added in??

*shrug.* It just seems easier to me to have fitness levels mean the same thing for all soldiers, and adjust them as need to reflect what the real world differences would likely be.

Whether we need more fitness levels to accurately model the abilities of Elite units is kind of another question. I've never really noticed this need myself, but then again, I tend to have a pretty deliberate, careful play style.

Oh, one other thing: While I don't think there's any difference between a conscript unit and and elite unit of the same fitness level as far as how quickly they become fatigued, I suspect there are some differences in how well they perform once fatigued. In general, more highly trained units perform better under stress in the game, and IME this extends to fatigue.

That is, a conscript soldier rapidly loses accuracy, situational awareness and becomes more brittle under fire as he becomes fatigued. An Elite soldier keeps his head about him much better if he's winded. At least, this is my experience; I've never done any definitive testing.

Cheers,

YD

[meade95]

=YankeeDog;1184536Oh, one other thing: While I don't think there's any difference between a conscript unit and and elite unit of the same fitness level as far as how quickly they become fatigued, I suspect there are some differences in how well they perform once fatigued. In general, more highly trained units perform better under stress in the game, and IME this extends to fatigue.

That is, a conscript soldier rapidly loses accuracy, situational awareness and becomes more brittle under fire as he becomes fatigued. An Elite soldier keeps his head about him much better if he's winded. At least, this is my experience; I've never done any definitive testing.

Cheers,

YD

Good point -

[Secondbrooks]

Fine with me. While this means scenario designers should definitely usually adjust fitness levels appropriately, there's no reason why you couldn't have a highly fit conscript (e.g., someone from a life background that gives them a high level of fitness), or even an unfit elite soldier (most likely example of this would be a unit that has been in the field for a long time under difficult conditions, with cumulative fatigue, exposure etc. taking a toll).

I agree. I take fitness mostly as breathing capacity, ability of lungs to take in and use air which they get. This is trait which is hard to improve with exercising. Half year or year served soldiers hardly ever are much better in this than what they were when they entered basic training, they can run 100-200 meters more in 12 minutes than at start. That is not very much. That IF they are slim, healthy young blokes in the first place. Pretty much only way to improve rating drastically is to quit smoking, lose lot of weight, or not to give 100% during initial tests.

Pretty much everything else affects to fitness level more than how experienced or well trained unit is. And those things which tend to keep physical fitness down are something which tend to carry on during service, or even get worse. Smoking is one classic and getting even more fat seems to be also nowdays as vehicle tend to haul soldiers fat arses instead of their legs.

[meade95]

I agree. I take fitness mostly as breathing capacity, ability of lungs to take in and use air which they get. This is trait which is hard to improve with exercising. Half year or year served soldiers hardly ever are much better in this than what they were when they entered basic training, they can run 100-200 meters more in 12 minutes than at start. That is not very much. That IF they are slim, healthy young blokes in the first place. Pretty much only way to improve rating drastically is to quit smoking, lose lot of weight, or not to give 100% during initial tests.

Pretty much everything else affects to fitness level more than how experienced or well trained unit is. And those things which tend to keep physical fitness down are something which tend to carry on during service, or even get worse. Smoking is one classic and getting even more fat seems to be also nowdays as vehicle tend to haul soldiers fat arses instead of their legs.

Agree somewhat and don't somewhat.

I would contend most standard U.S. soldiers are by a reasonable definition "fit" and capable. While at the same time, they are not to the standard "fitness" of a standard "elite" status U.S. Army, Marine, SOF type unit. There is a differnce, not just in the abilities while under stress but in their standard fitness level.

Though prehaps as mentioned above CMSF looks to sim these differences more via how each units peforms while becoming "fatigued"....

[dan/california]

There are two separate endurance issues that need to be broken out in this discussion.

The first is the ability to maintain absolutely maximum output. As previously commented this is mostly genetic. It can be improved slightly by training and of course is affected by load, including body weight, but it is a fundamentally fixed nuimber.

The second and in many ways more important issue though is the ability to operate at relatively high sub maximal levels. This is enormously affected by proper training, nutrition and hydration. Also, over time the percentage of the relatively rigid all out max that can be sustained increases as well.

So a well trained, elite, and very fit soldier might only be able to exceed the sprint performance of a less well trained one by only ten or twenty percent. However, the ground the elite trooper could cover in an eight or twenty four hour emergency road march might be two or three times a much.

In games terms the primary question is how should performing hunt and quick movement orders be assessed. Fast, by definition, is full up max effort and subject to the above limitations. I do feel that fit/elite troops wear out too fast performing hunt and quick orders. If nothing else they would simply slow down to a pace that they could maintain instead of winding themselves completely. Hunt and Quick imply that the troopers are to arrive capable of further action. The AI should account for this.

[dan/california]

It is possible to micro manage this with very careful pauses and so on, but it is also a bloody pain the %@%^$@.

[dan/california]

So in very hot weather for instance a Quick order results in a slower speed rather than a unit that is completely exhausted 2/3 of the way to its destination.

[meade95]

So a well trained, elite, and very fit soldier might only be able to exceed the sprint performance of a less well trained one by only ten or twenty percent. However, the ground the elite trooper could cover in an eight or twenty four hour emergency road march might be two or three times a much.

In games terms the primary question is how should performing hunt and quick movement orders be assessed. Fast, by definition, is full up max effort and subject to the above limitations. I do feel that fit/elite troops wear out too fast performing hunt and quick orders. If nothing else they would simply slow down to a pace that they could maintain instead of winding themselves completely. Hunt and Quick imply that the troopers are to arrive capable of further action. The AI should account for this.

+1 - Agreed -

[Secondbrooks]

There are two separate endurance issues that need to be broken out in this discussion.

The first is the ability to maintain absolutely maximum output. As previously commented this is mostly genetic. It can be improved slightly by training and of course is affected by load, including body weight, but it is a fundamentally fixed nuimber.

The second and in many ways more important issue though is the ability to operate at relatively high sub maximal levels. This is enormously affected by proper training, nutrition and hydration. Also, over time the percentage of the relatively rigid all out max that can be sustained increases as well.

So a well trained, elite, and very fit soldier might only be able to exceed the sprint performance of a less well trained one by only ten or twenty percent. However, the ground the elite trooper could cover in an eight or twenty four hour emergency road march might be two or three times a much.

In games terms the primary question is how should performing hunt and quick movement orders be assessed. Fast, by definition, is full up max effort and subject to the above limitations. I do feel that fit/elite troops wear out too fast performing hunt and quick orders. If nothing else they would simply slow down to a pace that they could maintain instead of winding themselves completely. Hunt and Quick imply that the troopers are to arrive capable of further action. The AI should account for this.

All is fair. But you forget one thing.

"So a well trained, elite, and very fit soldier might only be able to exceed the sprint performance of a less well trained one by only ten or twenty percent. However, the ground the elite trooper could cover in an eight or twenty four hour emergency road march might be two or three times a much."

This could very well be conscript/green soldier as well. "Relatively high sub maximal levels" is easily discovered by sending guy to run for lets say 12 minutes, not optimal method, but easy and simple. This tells how good lung (=ability to take and use oxygen) capacity individual has. This trait doesn't much rise with exercising. And based on what i've seen it clearly dictates the level how well indivudual can keep on going. Those who scores high in tests which reveals this are also those who can keep on going longer.

Surely it can be increased over time with proper physical training, but if we have healthy young bloke already (which is NOT the case with big part of western youth) improving that trait will consume time and effort. With healthy i mean that they are slim, don't smoke and have had some amount of physical activities past few years. I along many others didn't get much better in 12 minutes running test after one year of intense combat training because we were pretty healthy bunch already when we entered service. That is pretty visible in charts which i've seen which discusses of improvement of physical fitness during service. Nowdays when youth is getting softer and softer there is bigger improvement visible along service, because additional weight and all that drags their lung's capacity can be get rid of in rather fast manner, however such material hardly ever seems to get selected for combat roles.

Surely elite troops of elite-units can different with their elite-athlete traits. They don't become such along their training, but they were such once they were selected for their elite-unit training. These are pretty much only type of unit which possesses vastly greater physical performance than average units.

I hate word elite and it should has so marginal role in CMSF that using it as example is pretty pointless.

Ps. So what i try to say is that experience level (partially composed of time one has spent in training) has so small effect on fitness level of unit that it easily can be overwritten with loads of other factors.