Tank Armour and penetration - rules of thumb

[ravells]

One thing I'm finding hard to get to grips with is working out (in very rough terms) how the offensive capability of one tank matches up to the defensive capability of the one it's firing at (and vice versa).

I know that if you select a tank and hit enter it gives you various stats but I can't really convert the information into any practical rules of thumb.

Do I need a point blank zero deflection rear armour shot to stand any chance of killing the enemy tank? What happens if I stand-off at 200m? That sort of thing.

I'm not looking for anything too complex but just rules of thumb that I can use to work out what I have to do offensively and defensively with tanks.

Do any such rules of thumb exist?

Cheers in advance,

Ravs

[dieseltaylor]

I am a bit surprised as all the info is available on the "Enter" button when on the tanks concerned. Looking at penetration on one compared to the armour on another could not be simpler.

If the penetration figure is higher than the armour then you have a chance. That is the rough calculation, whether you hit or not is in the laps of the Gods. And even hitting guarantees nothing : ) Play a few games and you will get the experience you need.

My suggestion in all these things is to play a lot of tank heavy games quickly so that you get the knowledge via experience. If you want to be boring set up little demo battles where you restrict your tanks to lanes - however I always find that seems to give artificial results as the tanks tend always to be head-on in contrived circumstances.

So knock up a few quick battles and be the General for both sides. Rotate through a few common tanks and you will be able to extrapolate a bit to tanks in general.

[Zarquon]

There is no useful rule of thumb. The best thing you can and should do is to use the scenario editor to line up the most common tanks of each nation. Select one, target an enemy tank and the cursor will display hit and kill chances.

[ravells]

Thanks guys,

I don't want to 'game the game' too much...here is a screenie of a tank...I just can't see the penetration to armour ratio..(sorry if I'm being thick) but what if one of these tanks came up against another one...what do these figures tell me? I can't see it. Could you walk me through how I'm supposed to interpret them in a practical way?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/ravells/tankpenetration-1.jpg

[Michael Emrys]

BFC made up some diagrams for their own use illustrating which angles and ranges each tank in the game could be penetrated by each major opposing weapon in the game. Some of these were released, but I don't know where you would find them or even if they are still in circulation. Anybody know? Moon?

Michael

[costard]

Thanks guys,

I don't want to 'game the game' too much...here is a screenie of a tank...I just can't see the penetration to armour ratio..(sorry if I'm being thick) but what if one of these tanks came up against another one...what do these figures tell me? I can't see it. Could you walk me through how I'm supposed to interpret them in a practical way?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/ravells/tankpenetration-1.jpg

Hi ravells. First thing to realize is that all the numbers are metric - millimetres for armour thickness and metres for range.

So your 20mm cannon in the IIC is capable of penetrating a 30mm armour plate at 100m, provided that plate is square on, not angled. This same IIC has a skin of 15mm armour with more armour (20mm) bolted or welded on to the front of the vehicle.

Figure any shot coming in on an angle to have less armour penetration. Pay attention to the fact that although your 20mm doesn't penetrate much at 2km, it still gets there. It's an explosive shell, with blast of 4. Figure a half track killer out to 1000m, early war tanks might have real difficulties staying whole at ranges out to 500m when taken in the flank or rear.

[Zarquon]

Thanks guys,

I don't want to 'game the game' too much...here is a screenie of a tank...I just can't see the penetration to armour ratio..(sorry if I'm being thick) but what if one of these tanks came up against another one...what do these figures tell me? I can't see it. Could you walk me through how I'm supposed to interpret them in a practical way?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c217/ravells/tankpenetration-1.jpg

Sooner or later, you *have* to "game the game" if you want to become good enough to win when playing against another human. Or the AI, for that matter. You need at least a rough idea what it takes to take on a T-34/76, a StuG, a Pz IV etc. It's not too much to learn because there are quite a few different tanks in the game, but much fewer different gun models. For example, the German kit has mostly:

50 short (early Pz III) - popgun. Use against light tanks, or hope you'll get lucky against a T-34

50 long (later Pz III) - a better popgun. A T-34 outguns you. Don't buy it if you can get a 75 long.

75 short (early Stug and Pz IV, late Pz III) - meant for anti-infantry work. Might or might not kill a T-34/76, not recommended for serious tank duels or longer ranges. Think of its AP and HC round as self-defense ammo.

75 long (lots of models) - very good gun. Can kill about everything until the late-war Russian tanks appear. You might see rounds bounce off a T-34 once in a while, but this is your workhorse for most of the war.

75 very long (Panther etc.) - even better. Does not kill a SU-100 or IS-3, but about everything else. Good range (i.e. good hit chances at longer range).

88 short (Tiger) - about the same class as 75 vlong

88 long (late-war übertanks) - great fun

(and about every tank gun has its equivalent AT gun version)

105mm/150mm: meant for digging out infantry. HC rounds are effective, but have a low muzzle velocity (= low range) and are meant for self-defense only.

Then you need to get an idea what protection levels your tanks have, with the turret front being the most important aspect.

<50mm: stay out of trouble

50mm (Pz IV turret): stay out of trouble if you can - a 76mm gun can get you. Maybe a 45mm at low range, I don't remember.

80mm (most StuGs): now you're in business

Side or rear armor (all tanks): don't present it. It's as simple as that. Russians have slightly better side armor, but the rule still applies. Always keep your turret pointed at the enemy, that's what covered arcs are for.

Late-war Superheavies against superguns: look it up when you need it. The scenario editor is your friend. As are the comprehensive CM Excel tables somebody made. Do a forum search for "Excel". But the editor gives you a quicker answer.

If you know at least that, you're in the game. Other guns are less important. For example, I don't remember much about 20mm penetration. You might get lucky with it against a really light tank, but don't count on it. Look this up when you need to.

To get an idea what a gun can do, I usually look at the 500m/30° penetration. That's about the most common range and angle. In your example, it's 19mm. A T-34 has at least 40(45?)mm armor all around (most Russian medium tanks have), so forget it. Maybe you can knock out a BT-type tank from the side, nothing more.

I know some of this is incorrect or incomplete, but my point is not to write a comprehensive guide, but to say that you want to know what weight class you're fighting in. And that means a line-up in the scenario editor.

[malfuriouspete]

everyone is spot on! Looking at the armor penetration of your tank you can easily click on an enemy tank and hit enter on them to see what their armor thickness is. Using the line of sight tool, you can then find out how far away they are and if its even worth your time targeting them...although sometimes your units will make that decision themselves. Its really easy to find out information about your opponents armor and just compare it to your own tank's gun.

In your pic, your PzII can probably take out light russian tanks at ranges under 400 to 500m (maybe but they probably have to be closer) but after that, they are pretty much useless against t-34s, KVs, etc.

[ravells]

Thanks everyone (especially Zarquon) that's been exactly the information I've been looking for!!

[Dave H]

One thing I'm finding hard to get to grips with is working out (in very rough terms) how the offensive capability of one tank matches up to the defensive capability of the one it's firing at (and vice versa).

(snip)

Assuming you play with fog-of-war turned on a lot of times you won't know exactly what AFV you are facing so don't bog yourself down too much in a paper-rock-scissors list of rules to follow.

What you will find as you play is that the AFV/AT gun that you didn't see is the one that will announce itself with a loud clang on the side of your tank. I had that happen for the first time playing the CMBO demo "Valley of Death" and I've been hooked ever since.

[noxnoctum]

Easiest way is to load up editor and lay out mock battles between the various tanks you're curious about (or AT guns... or any units actually). Play as hotseat that way you can control both parties. Editor is VERY easy to use, especially if you're just looking to do quick test runs.

I used this to figure out for example that, yes, 2 platoons of mere SU-76s can close and swarm and kill a tiger at 500 meters in open ground and only take 2 losses.

Or to figure out that Panthers/Tigers and IS-2s are basically whoever hits first kind of a deal, they can both penetrate each others' armor most of the time. The IS-2s have a disadvantage because of massive loading time though.

I've even loaded up the editor WHILE playing a tcp-ip game to quickly figure something out. I.e. can a crack SMG platoon cross 50 meters under dual MG fire from 200 meters away and make it.

[ravells]

Cheers nox. I don't have a huge amount of time at my disposal and would rather play than spend hours conducting experiments (slacker that I am!) so I was hoping to get just a rough idea of what is and is not possible or at least very improbable.

[Zarquon]

We didn't mean you should *play* the test setups; that could take days. Just add a lot of different tanks to an empty map, click "Preview", select one and taget another. That gives you exactly the information you're looking for.

Otherwise, CM could prove to be a very slow learning process for you as you will learn only through mistakes.

[ravells]

Ahhhhh thanks!