How easy is it to take out ppl inside a pillbox?

[Schmoly War]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7c7_1223869622

Defensive positions anyone?

What we have now in self proclaimed realistic modern shoothers like arma and other fps (all of them actually) is pretty stale when it comes to this.

There is the standard sandbags plus heavy calibre MG position. Are these ever defensive? Have they ever been defensive? One can easily see the upright gunner from just about anywhere. He is usually the first to go down in any game environment

Having watched countless engagements against AI in cooperative multiplayer games (arma, ofp...etc), it simply seems like an exercise in gunning down static or confused AI manning an outpost somewhere;

the very visible sandbags, the poor AI manning the 12 calibre, upright soldiers who cant really hide their bodies behind anything. Maybe throw in a roaming APC. Patrolling squads nicely lined up.

Easily beaten.

Rinse and repeat a few times and you got your standard missions in these games.

Im arguing for proper defensive positions as I think this would change the dynamics of fps games.

Is if this is possible without some abstraction.

Why isnt this more widespread in wargames?

Thing is, the dynamics of playing the game would be changed just by adding realistic MG positions. Youd maybe have to add a suppression meter to the pillbox (you cant hit the gunner trough the small slit because of bullet ballistics, so youd have to bring up support weapons to suppress it - youd have to flank it - add a second pillbox to cover dead angles.... you got an interesting tactical debacle.

Only game ive seen this attempted was in the Brothers in Arms series, which was a corridor shooter, we want the open sandbox games to implement this as well.

Add the suppression meter of the Brothers in Arms games, minefields and overlapping fields of fire, you got a decent challenge on your hands.

Youd need engineers to clear the minefield, smoke to cover them, loads of fire to suppress the bunkers and maybe a whole load of anti tank missile fire on them because they are difficult to hit because of their low profile in the terrain. You cant accurately shoot trough the slits because of their small size (not unless you got near 100 percent flat bullet trajectory)

Thoughts?

[Affentitten]

Well do you want realism or do you want a computer game?

[Secondbrooks]

Well do you want realism or do you want a computer game?

By realism you'd mean that attacker calls it break while they get something which is enough to destroy or severly damage that bunker? That would be the CMSF way. :cool: (and not very far off it seems)

Interesting question from original poster. Hard to say-hard to say. Must give it more thought.

[Affentitten]

Well I also mean you sit tight for hours or days while you bring up the required armour, arty or air assets to deal with the emplacement. Or whilst another company outflanks the position. Unless of course you want the John Wayne approach of charging the slit, where of course the enemy has thoughtfully left cover a couple of yards in front and made no attempt to interlock the fields of fire from different emplacements.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

In answer to the question in the topic, an alternative strategy would be to simply ask nicely while armed with a big bunch of flowers. No cheesy one liners either!

Regards

KR

[Schmoly War]

Hmmm. so you guys reckon its left out of gaming because it is TOO realistic?

I see more workarounds than the John Wayne example given above :-) Love the flower example though.

Given all the ammo your team carries around in fps gaming, some of it, alot of it, could be used to actually suppress the slit.

Say you have no heavy weapons, armour etc. (like in the early minutes of the liveleak video), how do you deal with the situation?

Is there an old way of thinking that pillboxes have nothing to do in modern shooters?

IMO, a working pillbox would on a fundamental level finally change the dynamics of how we play these wargames.

[hcrof]

Affentitten has it right. If you must do a frontal assault though, work your way close to the pillbox and hit it with an AT-4 or a RPO. Immediately assault using smoke to conceal your movements from other enemies. Use grenades and automatic fire to finish off the survivors. If you can't do that, it is probably best to call it a day (or wait till nightfall and hope they don't have night optics). By this point however the situation is so far away from the real world that you might as well go Rambo and see how far you get.

There is a reason why modern armies don't use pillboxes any more. Everyone and his dog owns anti tank weaponry that can take it out. The only way to protect infantry is by concealment and it is very difficult to camoflage a bunker in a fps.

[Schmoly War]

I wouldnt expect pillboxes in a ww3 setting no.

Yet we have them in almost all current conflicts. That includes trenches.

The hardness and survivability of infantry isnt modelled at all.

The video from liveleak ( I wish I could find the entrenched house video from caucasus where 2 mujahadeens fight off a russian rapid reaction force for a whole day. They empty several thermobaric rounds into the house to no avail) clearly shows its not that easy, even in modern settings.

[hcrof]

Ah well, I thought you were talking about concrete or wooden pillboxes. These can work temporaraly but not against a determined enemy. When you said Arma I assumed you where in a conventional war situation. The one in the video was holding off the crew of a downed helicopter which is an unusual situation to say the least but in an unconventional war you sometimes can't take the gloves off and assets can't always be concentrated.

If you mean trenches or fighting positions, then you are right, they are very common today, although as mentioned earlier, conceilment becomes very important.

About the hardness of infantry, its a funny world. One man may go out of action from loud noises whereas a doped up mujahadeen can sometimes take .50cal to the chest and keep fighting. You never know who the supermen are going to be either untill they get hit.