Germany supports Finland in Winter War

[teutonkopf]

I think there should be a decision event for Germany to support Finland in the Winter War. This is one of the biggest "what ifs" of WW2 because it would have allied Germany with the UK and France against the Soviets. Choose 'no' and the stratcom AI will be the same as it traditionally has. Choose 'yes' and a very very interesting alternative history begins. Germany, UK, and France are now fighting as allies against the Soviet Union.

v/r,

tk

[carverrt]

This may work for a very aggressive German AI (an advantage to a new player n that Germany takes on too much too fast). It may go like this: A German AI chooses to ignore the USSR. The German AI refuses to share Poland with

the USSR, then during the historical Winter War time frame USSR becomes belligerent and declares war on Finland. This allows the Allied human player to have USSR attack Germany in Poland or even Japan in Manchuria. Even if the human Allied player does not declare war on Germany or Japan, the Germany AI sends forces to fight in Finland, lowering German MMP’s.

Robert

[arado234]

teutonkopf the Germans did send them some weapons but as far as France and Germany becoming friends FORGET IT.Hitler was still REALLY upset about Alsace-Lorainne and I cant see him ever becoming friends with France,but it is true in that we are in command and not Hitler.Some Brits.thought it a good idea and were actually planning to bomb the Russian oil fields in the Caucasus but that was(wisely)turned down.

[LampCord]

teutonkopf the Germans did send them some weapons but as far as France and Germany becoming friends FORGET IT.Hitler was still REALLY upset about Alsace-Lorainne and I cant see him ever becoming friends with France,but it is true in that we are in command and not Hitler.Some Brits.thought it a good idea and were actually planning to bomb the Russian oil fields in the Caucasus but that was(wisely)turned down.

Right. But I could see Germany making a non-aggression pact with UK / France long enough to deal with Russia and then turn on them later. Kind of a reversal of what actually happened.

[arado234]

I cant see the Brits.and France just sitting doing nothing and if Germany tried to attack Russia after Poland there probably would have been revolt in Germany.Russia WAY out numbered and out gunned Germany in both tanks and Artty(not to mention Germany wasnt prepared or equiped to fight a war on such a huge front plus the Russian winter).By 1940 Russia already had around 6500 tanks and S.P.guns to Germanys 1800.Artty for Russia was around 33000 tubes to Germanys 7000.The only hope Germany had was if she attcked Russia she went in as a liberator not a butcher.Possibility of the Russians having another revolt(like in WW1).That of course would change everthing.Hitlers mindset made that impossible.

[jon_j_rambo]

Nazis damn near won the war with the plan they had. A few small tweaks here & there, and we'd all be in an ashtray.

[LampCord]

I cant see the Brits.and France just sitting doing nothing and if Germany tried to attack Russia after Poland

I think as long as Chamberlain was in charge in the UK, they would have done nothing. Maybe sanctions, not much else. He believed tyrants could be reasoned with.

And France's government was in complete disarray.

[SeaMonkey]

Damn right JJR! And this is just what we want SCGC to reflect.

[jon_j_rambo]

Everyone always says "the Allies would have won no matter what because of industrial power". That's a bunch of crap. If you stop the "will to fight" with some major battle victories; things change in a hurry. Midway, Stalingrad, Battle of Britain, and a tech hit or two......and the Nazis win.

Never underestimate any opponent. Goliath got his ass kicked. Sports upsets happen everyday. Afghanstan isn't going to fold just because the newspapers say they have no chance.

Far as the USA, it was very political. Not everybody wanted to get in a rubber raft and float on to Tawara so FDR could put a feather in his recruitment hat. Would you really wanna be in a boat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean if the Japs would have eliminated the carriers at Midway? True that the Yanks could have kept build huge navies, but come on.....you gotta have the desire, will, and motivation.

[arado234]

Rambo the fact that you mentioned that we had to have the will,I think being put in an ashtray,being a slave would have been the desire and motivation to never give up.

As far as Midway goes,a big part of why we won(not just that major battle)was we knew what they were going to do.Later on we knew what they going to do before their own Field commanders did.Its pretty tough to win when the otherside WAY outguns you and knows 99% of all your major moves before your own troops do.

Where the Axis(Germany)had her chance was politically but Hitler messed that up big time.

If what you think is true about the Axis having a chance then why isnt this game setup so the Allies have their true industrial might?Ultra and Majic arent included.Lets not forget Atomic bombs real effect.Oils real effect.

The Battle of Britain could have been won but the Germans would still have to invade and the British navy would still be a huge threat.Remember it was going on into Sept.and the weather in the English channel would have be very unpredictable.The Germans may have been able to capture an airfield and start bringing in troops that way?

I dont claim to be an expert(because im not)but I have read atleast a dozen books on this subject(various what ifs etc)and most if not all say the Axis still had prettywell no hope.

[arado234]

Lampcord,if Chamberlin remained in power then yes he may well have just sat back and let Germany and Russia beat the hell out of eachother but if Churchill came into power (he knew damwell what the Germans were up to) who knows what he would have done.If Germany did try to attack Russia right after Poland and Hitler still had his bonehead attitude then it would have been a long drawnout conflict(imho Germany would have lost).It would have changed the whole world in who knows what way.

[jon_j_rambo]

Rambo the fact that you mentioned that we had to have the will,I think being put in an ashtray,being a slave would have been the desire and motivation to never give up.

As far as Midway goes,a big part of why we won(not just that major battle)was we knew what they were going to do.Later on we knew what they going to do before their own Field commanders did.Its pretty tough to win when the otherside WAY outguns you and knows 99% of all your major moves before your own troops do.

Where the Axis(Germany)had her chance was politically but Hitler messed that up big time.

If what you think is true about the Axis having a chance then why isnt this game setup so the Allies have their true industrial might?Ultra and Majic arent included.Lets not forget Atomic bombs real effect.Oils real effect.

The Battle of Britain could have been won but the Germans would still have to invade and the British navy would still be a huge threat.Remember it was going on into Sept.and the weather in the English channel would have be very unpredictable.The Germans may have been able to capture an airfield and start bringing in troops that way?

I dont claim to be an expert(because im not)but I have read atleast a dozen books on this subject(various what ifs etc)and most if not all say the Axis still had prettywell no hope.

Alot of topics here. Lets go to Midway.

Were the Americans just lucky? Were the Americans being helped by God? Were the American Admirals better?

It's kind of like football, the coach can only prepare you so much. The coach only decides the plays......one key play, special teams, fumbles, etc... & it's bye-bye. I have read a little bit on Midway. Appears the Japs screwed up concertrating everything on Midway Island, when BAM......after get bled a little, the Yanks got a dozen bombers in for a couple kills.

Seriously, an Admiral (on either side) made a quick decision based on the information of that hour (or even minute) based on what some dude tells him on a radio or report. Same thing goes when you're talking to a hot chick......you try to say something or make your move....there is winners & losers.

"Nice guys whatever.....the Winner gets to bang the Prom Queen" --- from the movie, The Rock.

"Life comes down to a few precious moments, and this is one of them" --- Bud Fox in the movie classic, Wall Street.

All this armchair quarterback stuff over 60+ years later is a great read for somebody, while the author sells books.

"You don't know until you've been there, and been me." --- Rambo

[SeaMonkey]

Rambo...over the years...you have definitely gained in wisdom, your presentation leaves a little, but overall your spirit has grown.

Got to go with this comment even though we knew where they would be, the players still had to perform. Wade McCluskey making that decision to alter course to that of the Jap DD, running low on fuel. Even when the perfect play has been called, practiced over and over, the players have to execute under game conditions, there are no second chances.

This is war!

[jon_j_rambo]

Rambo...over the years...you have definitely gained in wisdom, your presentation leaves a little, but overall your spirit has grown.

Got to go with this comment even though we knew where they would be, the players still had to perform. Wade McCluskey making that decision to alter course to that of the Jap DD, running low on fuel. Even when the perfect play has been called, practiced over and over, the players have to execute under game conditions, there are no second chances.

This is war!

I missed my call to preach when I was 7, going to regret it come judgment day.

[SeaMonkey]

Its never too late!

Regrets can be abated.

[arado234]

Rambo,SeaMonkey I agree with what you say but your Country built 141 Carriers(this includes the smaller escorts)to Japans 16.Thats unreal.Rambo I like how you compare it to hot chick.