How do the MARINES do it?

[Paper Tiger]

Hi guys.

I've got a bit of free time coming up very soon and I'd like to get stuck into my first USMC mission. I have a nice big open map already drawn up for this battle but I'm a bit perplexed by the USMC OB and how to build the battle up in a 'realistic' way. I'm planning to make it a 3 hour mission so I'd like to start it off slow and build it up.

The basic story is this: Marines are moving west to a small river crossed at the northern and southern ends of the map that they believe will be defended. There is ridge running in front of their start line to cover their advance. From the top of that ridge, they can see pretty much the entire board (and vica versa;)) How would they approach these crossings?

I have elements of the Light Armored Recon platoon on the map at the start and want to add a single Infantry company, and the tank and engineer platoons from the MEU. What would likely accompany the Recon units? Would one platoon of Infantry in trucks be realistic?

[Chainsaw]

Atleast the LAR would have a rotary asset like a Cobra circling around prepared to give CAS. Dont know if LAR would take infantry with them when doing their jobb actually, just the LAR is pretty self managable with their 4 man scout teams and LAV-AT vehicles. I love Playing Marines and I love your scenarios PT so this one I look forward to more then ever... dont fail me

Edit: I have emailed Huntarr about this, hope he can pop up (havent seen him here forever now) and tell you the Marines way of conducting this.

/Thomas

[Paper Tiger]

At least the LAR would have a rotary asset like a Cobra circling around prepared to give CAS.

I should have mentioned that there will be two Cobras at the start . They will be joined by a couple of Harriers later in the game. I like Air Support and to be honest, I don't much care to play BLUE v RED missions that deny air power to the BLUE side, at least when the opponent is Conventional. (Against UNCON, no problem)

The plan is to give BLUE as much firepower as a Marine company going into combat against a conventional RED mech force could expect to have. That means air support and artillery as well. Of course, this will come with a very heavy price tag, namely that BLUE will have to do it by taking as few casualties as possible, (I'm thinking between 10-15% maximum just now but we'll see how feasible that proves oncee I start testing)

[theFightingSeabee]

PT,

I'm not a Marine, but I did train with them a lot, and they served as the opfor for our training exercises, so I have some experience with USMC infantry operations.

First, those recon units are going to SNEAK into the best possible positions where they can find the enemy without being seen. They will try to NOT get into any engagements. They will serve as the eyes and ears of the main units and call in air/arty assets as needed. Using air/arty will be the first priority to soften up the enemy defenses. The recon will most likely prefer to be alone, rather than having any outside units attached (other than air/arty).

Second, the Marine infantry will NOT want to drive trucks straight up into battle. They will unload and go on foot where it's safe to do so. This goes even if they have to cross open areas. A 15 meter spread between men will significantly reduce casualties, even under heavy fire. OK, so we can't spread them apart, but it's still much safer than a truck where everyone can die with one good hit.

By the way, THANKS for making a USMC scenario! They are my favorites and I'm happy to see another coming down the pipe!

By the way, I'm really excited to hear you're working on a USMC scenario. I've played the crap out of all the existing ones, so any fresh ones are extremely welcome! THAnks!

Having one platoon of infantry may or may not be all that realistic. The Marines tend to roll in with larger numbers for a decisive victory. For a security patrol or something like that, you'd probably see just a platoon working together.

Approaching the crossings, like I said, would be done with infantry on foot. Tanks would more than likely be used in a support role or in concert with the infantry. Think of Marine infantry as the main backbone of any Marine unit, with all others in support. This would all be done with as much overwatch as possible from heavy weapons and recon. Once the Marines make contact, a VERY heavy volume of fire will be delivered to the enemy positions while two or more squads move up as quickly as possible. How it plays out will be up to the individual commander as well as the ai.

I hope all this helps. I doubt I told you anything you don't already know, but having been on the receiving end of dozens of USMC assaults (most of which we repelled successfully!), I feel like I know the USMC tactics pretty well.

[Dietrich]

Alright! A Paper Tiger USMC scenario! I'm definitely looking forward to this one.

I like Air Support and to be honest, I don't much care to play BLUE v RED missions that deny air power to the BLUE side, at least when the opponent is Conventional.

While there are plenty of scenarios where the Blue force involved is not large enough or has not important enough of a mission to be worth providing air support, this would not be the case of an MEU. For one thing, an MEU isn't just any ol' unit of reinforced-battalion size; it's a highly trained and highly capable force assigned important missions. Secondly, an MEU has significant component air assets which are tasked with nothing other than supporting the MEU and the units that comprise it. And a river crossing mission with which about a third of the MEU's forces have been tasked sounds like just the sort of mission which would likely not be launched without at least helo, if not also fast-mover support.

[snake_eye]

I have had a look at your map. The obvious question is what enemy size force the USMC will find on the other side of the river? That you won’t say, no need to disclose the Red force size. We will find it playing the scenario.Where the crossing will take place ? What are the enemy field of fire setting ?

Normally, I will more or less move the Blue like “The Fighting Seebea” said it will.

1/The Recon with LAR and the team dismounted sneaking their way to a position enabling them to overwatch the crossing site and the commanding places from which the Red might fire on it

2/ The recon will bring Artillery, mortars and or Air Asset on these potentials threat areas. The LAR will assist and eventually try to Recon by fire, if the AT threat is not too high.

The troops (2 platoons up and one in reserve) having dismounted from their trucks at the AP (behind the ridge, you talked about) will fan out and rush for the crossing site to establish a fire base with the first elements, enabling the second ones to cross establish a fire base on the over side and so on (over bounding)

The major difficulty is to set an adequate timing for the pounding on the Red and have them keep their head down , the time for the Blue to get to the crossing site, secure it and finally cross it and fan on the other side toward the high grounds and or places that might have a good field of view to the crossing.

3/ I will send 2 Tanks to the crossing site and have them hunkered down to help the infantry on the other side with their fire and repulse a probable counter attack.

To summarize, if you have a Company of troops on their departure line ready to move with their Artillery Observer placed at a vintage point, 2 LAR’s and their teams doing a Recon by fire and or a swift Recon to pinpoint the enemy in order to pinned it by Artillery fire and Air Asset, plus 2 tanks ready to move, as said earlier, you can make it, if all goes by the book.

Since it rarely does, I think that you will take around 30% casualties in order to get on the over side. But you won’t be able to get them farther.

Remember, that in attack you should be 3 against 1 to play it safe, not less. I don’t know what is on the Red side ?

Anyway, I’ll be thrilled to give it a try.

Cheers

[Paper Tiger]

Thanks for showing your support for this guys. I am really looking forward to getting stuck into this mission. I'm just tinkering with the map to improve it's tactical potential and it's appearance today (it got a 'woo hoo' approval from the wife yesterday so it's lookin' good) but the real fun starts tomorrow or Thursday. I have a holiday next week so I'll be able to do most of the work on it then.

Although there will be a few trucks in the mission, I sincerely hope that folks won't be daft enough to use them as Infantry support vehicles. They are going to go in so as the player has a mobile supply depot that he can use to resupply his own forces and secondly to provide transport for the heavy weapons platoon. The manual says that they'll need some transport as they'll get tired very quickly lugging their guns about.

(Yet, I remember when I was playtesting that Convoy mission for the Brit campaign and found that the trucks, herded together could put out a formidable amount of firepower to protect themselves at long ranges before units could fire their RPGs.)

The 3:1 attacker to defender ratio... not going to happen, especially as BLUE has artillery (the company's own 60mm mortars, 2 sections of heavy mortars and 2 sections of heavy howitzers at present) as well as 2 Super Cobras and 2 Harriers. When we can program the AI with triggers to react to the player's moves I might give the real life 3:1 ratio a go but at present, the AI is simply scripted and unable to react to the player's movements. Therefore it has to be able to cover all the approaches and objectives. I also want to keep the tanks in as well so it looks like you'll be putting in an attack against a numerically superior foe. Just how superior will be determined in the course of playtesting.

30% Casualties! :eek: OMG! Would the Marines be willing to accept that kind of casualty percentage for anything less that a WMD objective? I'm planning to keep the player to something between 10-15%, probably nearer 10% seeing as how the Marines are primarily Infantry and so have fewer (expensive) vehicles to yield their casualty vps to the enemy side when they are destroyed. Whatever it ends up at, I'll make sure that the Marines have the firepower to do the job and take less than 10% casualties - or at least I will

[theFightingSeabee]

Sounds great PT. I can't wait to try it out! US forces would definitely consider 30% casualties a loss unless the objective was an absolute necessity. 10-15% is a little more reasonable. Also, yes the trucks should stay but not be used to rush the enemy .

[snake_eye]

When you are considering 30% loss as a possible outcome, you should not attack. However , I think that the player will have difficulties using wisely (that is at the good spot and at the right time) the artillery, mortars, and air asset. However, if the player is doing it rightly, the casualties might be even less than 5%. But for that, the enemy has to be pinned down and pretty much shaked down. If you are really, intending to deny the crossing to the Blue, by choosing Red, good field of fire, that won't happen and the attacker will have to fight hard for succeeding in crossing, establish themselves on the high ground, secure the crossing and prevent an eventual counter attack, feasible in a 3 hours game.

I won't move the truck, till the crossing site is secure and then only to a safe place in order to replenish eventually the platoons thet were in point.

Can't wait either to give it a try

Cheers

[Paper Tiger]

Well, here's a bone. The mission is pretty much finished bar the testing. (I've yet to win it). In my testing session this afternoon, I came up against the Syrian equivalent of Bruce Willis. This guy just wouldn't die and was single handedly holding up an entire platoon. He went down literally just after this shot was taken but he took the guy on the left with him.

[snake_eye]

Looks like the Red have had quite a few tracks and or tanks smoked in the background. Am I right ?

[theFightingSeabee]

Great screen shot! And syrian Bruce Willis ( ) !

[Wiggum]

Looks great Paper Tiger !

...but i hope i dont will face the syrian Bruce Willis...

[Paper Tiger]

Well, unless playtesting turns up anything, you can expect to see this at the Repository as soon as the v1.21 patch is released. It's called 'USMC Second Storm'.

[snake_eye]

T

The 3:1 attacker to defender ratio... not going to happen,

30% Casualties! :eek: OMG! Would the Marines be willing to accept that kind of casualty percentage for anything less that a WMD objective? I'm planning to keep the player to something between 10-15%, probably nearer 10%;;;;;;;;I'll make sure that the Marines have the firepower to do the job and take less than 10% casualties - or at least I will

Hi, Paper Tiger. I have played your scenario since I wanted to know if I was right or wrong in my casualties figure that I had set up to 30%, assuming the force you should have to counter the bridges crossings. Before going any farther, let me say that I enjoyed your map pretty much and the time for beginning the fight, let me discover a beautiful landscape. Your Briefing is well done, the caution about the minefields near or around the suitable OP for the artillery observer very clever and the forces : one Rifle Company, the scouts LAV and their AT brothers, without forgetting the engineers coming later on seemed to me, just sufficient to get to the crossing, as I told you earlier. Well, I enjoyed the fight and got leaked with a Tactical defeat, playing elite, without going back when things got eventually wrong.

I played till the TLR and suffered 39 % casualties 27 KIA, 71 WIA as well as 2 AVL and 2 OVL . The Red for their part had 79 KIA, 37 WIA, 5 MIA as well as 8 TL and 3 AVL, which make a little bit more than 38 % human casualties.

I got 150 points against 1863 to the Red. There is something wrong, the game did not register the Orontes crossing (in the Blue AAR), but the left and right one (in the Red AAR). I had succeeded in crossing the left bridge and had secured the small ridge on the left and the houses down below. The same had been done on the right crossing. The building on the left going uphill had been taken as well as the right ridge and its trenches, allowing the Engineers to have a view toward the town. The TLR then ended the fight.

Anyway, I was unable to undertake a move toward the town on the right, but also on the left front. If I have had 2 platoons and at the less 2 tanks I thing that should have been a feasible possibility.

At the start , I have had an Artillery observer moved on top of the hill on the right of the burning tank in a mine country (I took the risk). He did a tremendous job, with a javelin team that rejoined . Without them, I would not have been able to go so far.

To go back to the star of the battle. I had decided to attack with one platoon on the far left, to slide along the wood in order to secure the multiple wharehouses and or houses downhill. When that was done, I had one platoon go downhill and move along the road toward the right corner of them

The first Plt then advanced through the woods with a LAV (the other one had been destroyed on top of the hill while on overwatch on the road.) and a LAV AT (the second one stayed on overwatch on the hill and was latter destroyed) toward the crossing.

The second platoon advanced, when the first one got out of the woods and was levelled with the compound on their right, diagonally through the fields toward the houses near the river. From there, they swerved left toward the left trenches and houses down below the river and they helped in the crossing with suppressing fire.

At about the same time, I had moved the third Plt from the hill top on the far right, along the road and they took the compound on the right, just before the crossing, helped with a LAV. However, if the Engineers had not come, they would have been unable to move farther, due to their casualties.

I could have flatten the town, but you were somehow forbidding us that option, in the briefing. Even so, I would not have gone farther, the guys had no more juice and or fire power to do so. Anyway, I had a good time playing it.

If someone, do get a lower casualties figure, without cheating, needless to say, let me know.

Cheers

[Paper Tiger]

Hi snakeye

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad that it proved difficult on your first go as I was seriously worried that the first few players would come back and say 'nice map, good fun but too easy'. BLUE has so many support assets to play with and the time to use them in this one that it took a lot of time to get it balanced.

The Orontes crossings: Red gets points for controlling either of them. They are separate objectives for RED. For BLUE they are combined into one objective. This was done to prevent BLUE from capturing one and ignoring the other. I did this quite a lot while playtesting and trust me, it guides the player in the right direction.

It's way, WAY too early for me to give any spoilers on this mission but I'll say that I usually get across the river without taking any casualties. The real fun begins when attacking the north crossing. However, it usually falls before the 2 hour mark and that leaves me one hour+ to move on the town and the farmhouse. The farmhouse is very easy to take while the town is the real tough nut. The AI usually surrenders before I move a unit into the Textile factory. Usual result in a Minor US victory although I increased BLUE's Friendly Force Preservation bonus from 5% to 10% and from 50 points to 200 points to allow players to get a tactical/Major/Total victory.

I have a tendency to design missions that require the player to play them a few times before he gets a solid win. There are five AI plans and I design them to keep even the experienced player guessing until around the half way mark. There's one I plan that's very tough to beat. I won't say which one but you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting it every time you play. From reading your AAR, I suspect you got that one.

[snake_eye]

Hi snakeye

I have a tendency to design missions that require the player to play them a few times before he gets a solid win. There are five AI plans and I design them to keep even the experienced player guessing until around the half way mark. There's one I plan that's very tough to beat. I won't say which one but you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting it every time you play. From reading your AAR, I suspect you got that one.

Hi, Paper Tiger. Since there are 5 AI plans, I am going to give it a new try. I know that play testing a scenario we have done is somehow difficult. We always have a tendency to take in account the setting of the other side and react accordingly, despite the will to try to ignore it.

I really enjoyed that scenario and I played it like a wargame of what could have been a real assault. Playing it Elite, somehow puts you in the boots of a company commander and its platoon leaders, with a real time coordination and decision to be made on the spot.

To get the casualty figure the lower it could be is a real challenge and that I shall try to beat it. Anyhow, the fight for taking the town, unless they surrender, seems out of the way with the available forces.

I hope, I shall be credited this time for the crossings sites, since 3 Red guys making it low on the far left hill of the left crossing, made me loose that credit (so I assume ?)

Let you know of the new try and keep doing such good scenario

Cheers

[snake_eye]

Well, Paper Tiger second try and again at the TLR a Tactical Defeat. That time, I crossed the river on the left got to the farm and secured it, the with the engineers , I had switched from the right to the left front, I then went to occupy the first compound on the left of the road at the town edge. I did not go farther, since a tank was behind that compound.

That left attack was conducted, the same way that earlier, but with one platoon only.

They did not sustain casualties till the crossing, because of that damn tank (on the other side) which is always impervious to air and artillery shot. A SMAW team finally nailed it. Till it happen the crossing was halted.

The artillery observers and snipers were as earlier located on the ridges. The sniper HQ, however triggered mines this time.

The attack on the right was done with the 2 remaining platoons

That assault was also halted at the crossing, having to face an unexpected tanks and BMP’s counter attack. The artillery, the air assets and later the TOW coming with the engineers tried to save the day. I don’t know how that was possible, but three tanks, one on the left of the crossing, one level with the building, on the slope leading to the ridge, and the last one on the ridge itself prevented any move of the 2 platoons and they hit the ground.

When, finally they have been destroyed by 155mm barrage, the troops were finally able to seize the ridge. The TLR struck me at that time.

I suffered 57 KIA, 66 WIA 2 AVL and OVL destroyed which make a 50% casualties figure.

The Red got 114 KIA, 64 WIA, 2 MIA 9 TL and 10 AVL destroyed that make a 57 % casualties figure.

Some red troops remained on the right crossing far left side, that time. That is maybe why it did not registered again. Yet the crossing was taken and the road secured.

I again had nothing for the Orientes crossing , but for the North and South crossing only. The score 150 against 1506

I still like your scenario, but you may admit that the figure of at least 30% casualties, I had given and that some of you thought too high is still in effect. As a matter of fact, I got farther, till the town edge and I have had proportionate higher casualties, so the Red did. Believe me I did use fully the Air asset and the artillery. Everything was dry, but one 155mm gun remaining with few shots.

I don’t think that I shall give it a third try for the moment, since I don’t see how I could possibly lower the casualties figure, unless you get a C-130 gunship into the game to get at night the troops and the armour. More seriously, a Forward Air Controller maybe, could have improved the Harrier aiming ?

Cheers

[afreu]

Is this out yet?

[stoex]

Yes, afreu, it's here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=89587

Downloaded it but haven't had time to play it yet. I'm always a bit shy about the large scenarios...will post when I have tried it.

[Paper Tiger]

50% BLUE casualties! It's been a LONG time since I saw that happen.

I suppose what follows could be construed as a SPOILER..............

I have to ask, how slowly are you approaching this mission? Sounds like you're moving quite quickly. S-L-O-W is the way to go especially in the first hour. I got into the habit of setting aside the first 2 hours of the mission for the battle to capture the crossings. I take it very, very slowly and wait for air/artillery assets to get those tanks/BMPs that are too tricky for a javelin team to get to.

I rarely ever lose any vehicles playing this mission anymore. Since you lose a LOT more vps for vehicular casualties retaining the vehicles means you can afford to take a few more infantry casualties and still get a Minor BLUE Victory. I've come very close a few times to retaining the 10% FFP bonus but I usually lose it due to carelessness in the final assault on the town. The AI usually surrenders before time expires and so I get the VPs for all the VP locations regardless of any die hards remaining in the vicinity of the crossings.

And I honestly can't remember the last time I earned the PRESERVE VPs for the Government Buildings. Unless you're very, very good, it's just NOT worth it.

[tyrspawn]

Well, here's a bone. The mission is pretty much finished bar the testing. (I've yet to win it). In my testing session this afternoon, I came up against the Syrian equivalent of Bruce Willis. This guy just wouldn't die and was single handedly holding up an entire platoon. He went down literally just after this shot was taken but he took the guy on the left with him.

Don't know why but i laughed for like 10 minutes after reading this little AAR.

[snake_eye]

Hi Paper Tiger,

As you asked for it, here follows the time chronology of that second assault try.

Time chronology of the most significant events of the crossing sites assault

Important Blue events reminder telltale:

In Red : LAV and or vehicles being damaged and or destroyed

In Green : Troops deployed at the bridge, about to cross it and or awaiting to do so

In Orange : Important Objective reached

On the left Orontes site crossing

0:29 One LAV AT destroyed on the left hilltop ( playing elite I had forgotten to move it back) my fault

0:38 2nd Plt and twoLAV deployed in the woods after the downhill compound and moving toward the field located before the crossing. One BMP, on the field edge, is engaged and destroyed by one LAV.

01:08 2nd Plt gets level to the edge of the field with one LAV on the left. The other one with a squad takes the right compound; The squad destroy a BMP hiding in it.

All 2nd Plt and LAV are at the edge of the field and of the hill seen from the compound taken on the right. A tank is seen at the crossing site.

01:25 The Art observers and the javelin team located on the central hill, among the suspected minefields are seeing the premise of an armoured counter attack. It starts at the middle top and is heading toward the right crossing.

01:47 1st squad 2nd PLT takes the trenches on the hill top over watching the crossing, then the 3 houses at the crossing site. A Smaw team takes out the tank, after it had destroyed the LAV supporting them.

01:48 All the 2nd Plt squads and the remaining LAV are level with the crossing site.

02:18 After having cross the Orontes river, they take the two houses at the wood edge, just before the flat field leading to the farm. Just there, they sustain their first human casualties.

02:20 The Engineers start to move from their right staging area to the left front, by the road parallel to the ridge and out of enemy view. They get to the road running perpendicular and drive down hill, on to the Farm, to help in its seizure.

02:37 The farm is taken, a BMP hiding and retreating from there, is destroyed by an Humvee grenade launcher, since the LAV can not fire, having its 25mm damaged while firing in the wall to attempt breaching it.

02::45 The LAV and the two engineer’s trucks, the 4th squad engineers and a 50 cal. Humvee move to the town entry and into the courtyard of the first houses on the left of the road. They will stay there till the end, since a tank is right behind the house. It fires on the squad which sustains some casualties.

On the right Orontes site crossing

0:26 1st Plt move to the right of the map. 3rd Plt remains in its staging area.

0:41 They are level in their pre assault position, near the top of the ridge.

01:14 3rd Plt move downhill on the right side of the road and stop on the edge of the field.

01:18 1st Plt move downhill, but on the left side of the road and toward the road running perpendicular to their assault axis

01:22 1st Plt gets with no casualties to its objective.3rd start to move to the middle of the field.

01:24 The LAV AT on top of the hill is suffering intensive damage to its Tow launcher. Being of no more help it pulls back and remain out of enemy view.

01:36 1st and 3rd Plt are at the crossing site; two tanks are seen. One on the road midway downhill at the level of the compound located on the left of the road. The other is seen on top of the ridge up hill.

The Humvee Tow having engaged for 10 minutes, the tip of the spear, seen by the Obs at 01:08, of the armoured counter attack from its hilltop location (it fired from the left and the right of the road from overwatch emplacement partial hull down) is destroyed after having destroyed 3 or 4 armored assets (mostly tanks)

01:54 They are still unabled to move, being pinned by the tanks. Another tank is on the left side of the crossing site. That makes three of them. They are sustaining, first minor casualties and later these, increase at a steady rate as soon as they attempt a move. They will stay still and hit the dirt, unable to move for nearly 55 minutes.

02:49 The tank on the left of the crossing is finally destroyed by a volley of the 155mm.

The Air Assets is no longer available, they are dry.

1st and 3rd Plt resume their assault toward the hill top.

02:54 The tank on the road midway downhill at the level of the compound is at its turn destroyed by a 155mm volley.

02:57 The one on top of hill gets the same fate, nearly at the time one of the assaulting squad gets to the top.

There are only one 155 mm and some shots still available.

1 st Plt gets to the top.

The TLR is reached with a Tactical Defeat.

Paper Tiger, as you might read it and see it in the game battle shots, the crossing has been done on the left and on the right.

The timing seems to me adequate and there have been no rush. I made it to the crossing within 01:30 and was on the other side around 02:00 to 02:30 at the most. The Farm was taken at 02:37 and the final hilltop on the right at 02:49.

The prepping of the crossing sites has been done as required. I did not spare any assets Artillery, Apaches and AV 8B. They all got dry but a few volley left for one 155mm at the end.

The town left edge has been reached. The ridge at the hilltop following the right crossing has been taken.

Some disorganized troops and having no BMP and or tanks, are still some 200 to 300 meters away from the right crossing site. They are the only one remaining outside the town besides an Artillery Observer ( I shall not disclosed its location, not wanting to spoil anyone of the surprise of the scenario)

About the Points

I only got 100 points for taking the Farm and 50 points for preserving the Government buildings, that is all. Surprisingly, not a point for the two crossing sites !

.It seems that you are registering a lot of VPs for the Red destroying a Blue LAV, LAV TOW and a vehicles.

To my judgement, you don’t take in account the numerous tanks and BMP that the Blue destroyed. Blue doesn’t seems to get any credit for the kills.

9 Tanks and 10 BMP’s against the loss of 1 LAV, 1 LAV-AT, and 1 Humvee Tow.

However, to be penalized for the human casualties seems rather correct.

I have not been satisfied with my preceding 39 % and neither with that final 50% casualties figure. Its awful. If I had been in command in such action, with such result, I would have been relieved on the spot. There the game makes a difference; you can try what you would not dare do in a real fight.

The game might give you a minor victory, with the Red surrendering, but that reflect the A.I behaviour, the points set up and the surrender decided by the A.I? That is always difficult to trigger it the way you want it to react. That has always been a problem, I have been faced with, more or less, in nearly all my scenario.

About the chosen strategy

However, if I look at the scenario and at the battle AAR and shots ( I took 75 shots during the first battle and nearly 100 for the second, to be able to analyze the battle more easily latter on, since I play Elite) , I don’t see what I could have done besides having the LAV-AT and the Humvee TOW staying out of view at the ridge.

The loss of the LAV AT on the left, was my fault as said earlier (it had been shot by one of the tank hiding along the river embankment)).The one, on the right evaded few shots till it was damaged. The TOW did the same with less luck. The three of them should have been engaging targets from the bottom of the valley from the flanks if and while feasible. The Artilley and or Air assets took care of the ATGM firing from the hill halfway across the top of the map in the first 15 minutes

For the LAV it is another story. They must give supporting fire to the assaulting squad. To do so, they must follow them. If they are able to destroy BM’s as seen on the AAR, they are no match for a tank.

The artillery and the air assets have had difficulties in destroying some of the tanks. The Artillery did it finally on the right side for the three tanks in the last minutes of the game. The troops had to move to get to the hill. They could not wait any longer. It was rather a difficult choice. Either they stay pinned and were destroyed bit by bit or they tried to manoeuvre to get away of that kill zone.

I did not sustain casualties on the left , nearly up to the farm; On the right it was another story with the three tanks as related. They almost save the day for the Red.

What, I can say, is that the troops, after the TLR, could not have moved any farther with any substantial result, but other casualties, if the game had lasted a bit longer.

To me, that battle, despite its higher casualty figure, should be registered as a tactical victory. The town is certainly not taken, butit is nearly surrounded with good commanding field of fire on it. The enemy can’t move out of it without being shot at.

The drawback, is that we don’t have any more manpower sufficient to mount a MOUT operation in town and that would be costly.

Lastly, the lack of at least two tanks in support, while facing so many armored threat from the Red is a mistake or should be the one that the S3 (sorry, but you are the S3 Paper Tiger) made in the evaluation of the attacking forces versus the defence forces

These comments reflect more a military point of view of that battle and the way it should have been conducted, than a critic to your scenario. But since, you asked military advices, it would be unfair not to tell you the truth.

Remember, that in a real Ops, if you stay put for hours and let know to the enemy your intention about the axis and your breaches points, you are sure to have him reinforce its defence and be ready for your coming.

More, Air and Artillery have shown their good points, but also their shortcoming in many Ops. They are a powerful asset, but you can’t expect them to do all the job. Manpower is always and has always been the key factor in battle since the Romans time. The actual conflicts are a strong reminder of that.

The good news is that I shall give a third try, for fun, to your scenario, since anyway I like it very much and had every time a lot of pleasure to play for 3 hours almost straight, without being bored. Besides, nobody is going to fire me for taking inconsiderate risk, if it happens.

Cheers

Here after, the first 4 shots out of 6 They are named following the time in minutes they had been taken. Starting at 52 minutes, ending at 177 minutes

Attention :To look at the enlarged shot click on the thumnail, then to zoom, once loaded, click on it.

[snake_eye]

Here after the last 2 shots

Cheers

[Paper Tiger]

Wow, snake eye, that is very, very detailed feedback. I guess I owe you a hint then...

SPOILERS++++++

It sounds like you're not getting much benefit from the Recon phase. By the time the first infantry platoons arrive, I've pretty much taken out all the vehicles covering the south crossing using the helo, the artillery and the ATGM LAVs. I make my main effort there and usually get a couple of platoons and the engineers across before the first hour with no casualties. A LOT of what follows next depends on the AI plan and where the counterattack goes.

The usual plan is to swing north from the south crossing to assault the North crossing from both sides simultaneously. I wait and prep the place thoroughly with heavy artillery first. If there's NO counterattack then this is usually easily done within 40-60 minutes with very few casualties. However, most of the time, the counterattack will throw your plan and there are casualties here but nothing that should lose the game for you if you're careful. Personally, I think the counterattack is a gift to the player as it allows him to eliminate a very powerful force as it moves in the open. I always have the eastern ridge well covered by stationary ATGM assets so most of the vehicles get taken out. Getting the infantry inside their BMPs is a double bonus as it slows the entire group down too. If they go into the town and hunker down there then you're in for a very tough fight. I've never beaten AI Plan 5 but I can usually get a DRAW.

The farmhouse is an easy taret as long as you approach it carefully and then after that, I take down the Governement Buildings with heavy airstrikes and any artillery I have left. Stuff the PRESERVE points as you usually take more points in casualties than you'll get from preserving it. I never hit the Mosque or Civilian Buildings though so that's 100 points in the bag for nothing.

I have to fight hard to capture the Government buildings and the Mosque and then the AI surrenders.

I never assault the town frontally from the south crossing although it would be the best way to do it with Plan 5. I always hit the north crossing from both sides at the same time. The north crossing is where I used to take game losing casualties in the early days of playtesting. (Witness the Syrian Bruce Willis photo). It's hard to get LOS to some of those defending vehicles without coming at the position from the south. Once you've spotted them, their life expectancy is very short. You must ALWAYS wait to get the best asset in to do the job. I once held up the assault on the north crossing for nearly 20 minutes to get a javelin team into place to get a couple of T-72s. Use SMOKE to cover their approach and the hunker down to wait for the smoke to clear and then wham...

I found myself using what are possibly quite realistic tactics to get wins in this mission. It makes for some rather boring moments from time to time as you wait for the best assets to get into place or the artillery to prep the area but you also get to set up some pretty spectacular moments later in the game as well. My assault on the town is aurally awesome The wife knows when it's happening in the front room.