How many allied tanks succumbed during the war?

[-Eddie-]

I'm not sure on the exact numbers of Challenger 2s knocked out/damaged but I can give you these:

A Challenger 2 was hit by an RPG-29 in Iraq, which hit the lower front hull and caused the driver to lose three toes. Link

A Challenger 2 was penetrated by an IED which caused the driver to lose his legs. Link

And as Other Means said, a HESH round from another CR2 hit a friendly CR2 and the hot pieces from the HESH went through the open TC's hatch and killed two, seriously injuring another two. Link. Page 14

Another incident occurred which saw a Challenger 2 (reportedly) take 70 RPGs. Link

And one from Wikipedia because it makes me laugh a little, not sure if it's bemusement or nervous laughter. A Challenger 2 took damage to the driver's optics and while trying to back away with the aid of the commander's optics they were damaged too and one of the tracks was thrown.

The tank was hit with 8 RPGs from close range and a MILAN (I'd say it's comparable to the TOW, what stats lovers would say I don't know). The crew stayed safe in the tank for hours before it was recovered. It was then repaired in six hours.

Read what you like into the last one as it's Wikipedia, a place for all to write their interpretations of the truth.

[tc237]

Isn't this because of the habbit of putting ammo etc on the outside of the tank?

No, the tank has a smoke screen generating system similar to m60, fuel is sprayed onto the engine exhaust to create smoke. Because of the fuel type and higher engine temp it would start fires. The system was disconnected in The 1980's. I've never seen it connected, but it could be if fuel type was straight diesel. (although we would use it to drain fuel tanks for maintenance)

Another cause was overheating NBC filters, by the late 90's most tanks had original or very old filters that were wornout/clogged (IIRC, they hadn't been used/changed since Desert Storm and the Army budget in the late 90's was rock bottom). A NBC filter fire killed a soldier at Hood during gunnery training, he was a driver, the filters are just to his left. It was a HUGE incident in the armor community, every unit was ordered to change filters and stop using the system untill the eventual repairs/changes were made. (IIRC, they changed the way air flowed through the system so that it would not heat-up)

Don't remember to many other causes of fires, I'll let you know when I get to 500 :cool:

[Damian90]

I'm not sure on the exact numbers of Challenger 2s knocked out/damaged but I can give you these:

A Challenger 2 was hit by an RPG-29 in Iraq, which hit the lower front hull and caused the driver to lose three toes. Link

A Challenger 2 was penetrated by an IED which caused the driver to lose his legs. Link

And as Other Means said, a HESH round from another CR2 hit a friendly CR2 and the hot pieces from the HESH went through the open TC's hatch and killed two, seriously injuring another two. Link. Page 14

Another incident occurred which saw a Challenger 2 (reportedly) take 70 RPGs. Link

And one from Wikipedia because it makes me laugh a little, not sure if it's bemusement or nervous laughter. A Challenger 2 took damage to the driver's optics and while trying to back away with the aid of the commander's optics they were damaged too and one of the tracks was thrown.

The tank was hit with 8 RPGs from close range and a MILAN (I'd say it's comparable to the TOW, what stats lovers would say I don't know). The crew stayed safe in the tank for hours before it was recovered. It was then repaired in six hours.

Read what you like into the last one as it's Wikipedia, a place for all to write their interpretations of the truth.

The truth is:

1st FV4034 completely destroyed, written off, turret blowed off the hull by explosion of propelant charges and HESH rounds stored in the hull, ammo was ignite by HESH rounds fired from other FV4034, two crew members KIA, two other were somewhere outside the tank.

2nd FV4034 ran over big IED, hull belly perforated, driver heavily injured.

3rd FV4034, RPG-29 hit Lower Front Hull, perforation, driver injured, other crew members also.

4th FV4034, mobility kill but probably nothing more, maybe some RPG's.

5th FV4034 one Milan-1 missile hit, about 50 RPG's also hit it, no effect on tank besides destroyed sight's.

So low cassualties were thanks to that Brits used from start of conflict a War Fighter uparmor kit for sids of hull and for Lower Front Hull, so RPG's and old ATGM's have problems with perforate side hull armor and also frontal armor and were ineffective.

[Flanker15]

any from enemy tanks?

4 were knocked out but not destroyed by enemy tanks at Medina ridge.

The regular tanks that Syria has in CM:SF are better than the vast majority of the tanks that Iraq used in the Gulf war though.

[Damian90]

In 1991 there were 20 kocked out M1A1HA's, mostly side shot's, rear shot's and mines, Iraqi's probably doesen't destroy any but there were some, 4 maybe 6 destroyed by F-F and some destroyed in fire in one of US base's in SA or after the war in Kuwait.

Some interesting info, in 1991 U.S.M.C. have been equiped not only with leased from US.Army M1A1HA's but, they got 4 or 8 first produced M1A1HC's, so Marines in 1991 use the best armored tank in NATO back then. :-)

These info is from Armorama forum, I find it sometime ago, some tankers said that indeed there were first M1A1HC's, but I don't know if these tanks fight or were in areas were there were not to much fighting.

[Michael Emrys]

Were the USMC tanks in 1991 crewed by USMC personnel or Army personnel? I recall a battalion of M1s serving with the Marines, but had assumed that it was an Army battalion temporarily assigned to the Marines.

Michael

[Damian90]

I think both are correct or maybe only Marines.

Well, tanks were leased from US.Army probably long time before ODS start's, so Marines have plenty of time to learn how to operate M1, besides this, M1A1HC's that I mentioned were builded firstly for Marines, probably after ODS US.Army ordered M1A1HC's and maybe earlier, I don't know.

M1's production ended in 1993, so until 200x US.Army ordered not only M1A1HC's but also modernisation program for older tanks, some were retrofited to M1A1HC, some to M1A1HA+ (it is just M1A1HA with M1A1HC armor), older variants, M1's, M1IP's and M1A1's in best condition were rebuilded to M1A2's, and some M1A1HA/HA+/HC's on late 90's to M1A1D configuration, but only one or two battalions recived M1A1D's.

Ok I end talking about M1's modernisation, sorry about that, but this is so interesting that sometimes I can't stop, I just love to learn about all thouse variants, prototypes etc. Heh M1 is more misterious than other modern tanks. ;-)

[Bulgaroktonos]

Were the USMC tanks in 1991 crewed by USMC personnel or Army personnel? I recall a battalion of M1s serving with the Marines, but had assumed that it was an Army battalion temporarily assigned to the Marines.

Michael

The Marine Corps's 2d Tank Battalion, attached to 2d Marine Division was equipped with 60 M1A1s at the time, and was commanded by LtCol Cesare Cardi. The 4th and 8th tank battalions were also attached to 2 Mar Div, while 1st and 3d were attached to 1st Marine Division, and these manned M60A3s with reactive armor fitted.

The Tiger Brigade was an Army unit attached to 2 Mar Div and included 1st and 3d Battalions of the 67th Armored Regiment. The Tiger Brigade was also equipped with M1A1s. The commanding officer of the Tiger Brigade was Colonel John B. Sylvester. From what I can tell, 2d Tank Battalion lost no M1A1s during Operation Desert Storm.

Here's a couple of 2d Tank Battalion's M1A1s

And here's an M60A3 with ERA

And here's some Tiger Brigade vehicles

[Michael Emrys]

The Marine Corps's 2d Tank Battalion, attached to 2d Marine Division was equipped with 60 M1A1s at the time, and was commanded by LtCol Cesare Cardi. The 4th and 8th tank battalions were also attached to 2 Mar Div, while 1st and 3d were attached to 1st Marine Division, and these manned M60A3s with reactive armor fitted.

The Tiger Brigade was an Army unit attached to 2 Mar Div and included 1st and 3d Battalions of the 67th Armored Regiment. The Tiger Brigade was also equipped with M1A1s. The commanding officer of the Tiger Brigade was Colonel John B. Sylvester. From what I can tell, 2d Tank Battalion lost no M1A1s during Operation Desert Storm.

Thanks, Bulgaroktonos. The Tiger Brigade (not battalion as I misremembered) is the unit I was thinking of. Sounds like the 2nd. Mar. Div. was really armor heavy with two brigade equivalents in addition to whatever was organic to the formation.

Michael

[Kwazydog]

Interesting vid of a tank grave yard in Iraq...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Sht-9mudc

[Damian90]

There is funny and interesting story about U.S.M.C. M60A1 RISE/PASSIVE tanks, and it is about the ERA kit for them, well this ERA armor was not ordered by Marines, and is not property of Marines but these ERA kit's were for... ta da US.Army M60A1 RISE/PASSIVE and M60A3/A3TTS tanks, but US.Army goes to the gulf with M1IP's and M1A1's and M1A1HA's (but all M1A1's were upgraded to M1A1HA in Saudi Arabia before ODS start, and M1IP's stay back and doesn't fight) so Marines recieved ERA kit's.

And about this short film, it is old, most of these M1's are only damaged and in repair status, maybe max 3 are over repair status. Most of these M1 got suspension heavy damage. Much worse status got these M2's, all of these M1's and M2's are mainly IED cassualties, maybe some of them after RPG's attack's.

But I must say one thing, western tanks, even destroyed are, damn just beutifull, just look how eminent they sit there. From my sources 10 tankers lost their life out there, many more were injured, well I salute them! And good thing that M1, CR2, M2 and Warrior so good protect their crews from death. :-)

[Damian90]

One more thing, you are sure that this pic is made in 1991? This M1A1xx(?) have new T158 track, in 1991 in use was old T156 track, hmmm so conclusion, or I don't know something and in 1991 some M1's have T158, maybe these tanks are even M1A1HC's or M1A1HA+'s, I never seen such versions with T156, or these pic is from 2003 OIF.

Damn, too bad I can see right front side corner of turret, there is a serial production number, and if there is also U letter so then it is probably M1A1HA or something newer, as all M1's with DU inserts have U letter with turret serial number.

Very interesting I must say. :-)

[Bulgaroktonos]

One more thing, you are sure that this pic is made in 1991? This M1A1xx(?) have new T158 track, in 1991 in use was old T156 track, hmmm so conclusion, or I don't know something and in 1991 some M1's have T158, maybe these tanks are even M1A1HC's or M1A1HA+'s, I never seen such versions with T156, or these pic is from 2003 OIF.

Damn, too bad I can see right front side corner of turret, there is a serial production number, and if there is also U letter so then it is probably M1A1HA or something newer, as all M1's with DU inserts have U letter with turret serial number.

Very interesting I must say. :-)

I'm 100% certain it is a photo from 26 February 1991. And you pointed out a mistake I made. A lot of 2d Marine Division's other tanks were in fact M60A1 Rise/Passive tanks, rather than M60A3s. The one in the photo is an M60A1.

Here's another Marine Abrams

[Rustman]

any from enemy tanks?

None. No enemy vehicle in conventional warfare has ever successfully scored a catastrophic kill on an Abrams. For that matter, I'm not sure if there has been any catastrophic losses from any enemy weapon system other than IED's. I know of one instance of the turret being penetrated from an RPG...a 1 in a million shot hit the hull/turret seam...thankfully minor injuries and the vehicle was relatively undamaged. Other than IED's though, I'm pretty sure the only losses have been from blue on blue incidents.

[Damian90]

I'm 100% certain it is a photo from 26 February 1991.

So this mean two thing's, in 1991 T158 were produced, second tanks on your pics are M1A1HA+ or more probably M1A1HC's, because from all photo and film materials, US.Army M1's in gulf have T156 track's.

And you pointed out a mistake I made. A lot of 2d Marine Division's other tanks were in fact M60A1 Rise/Passive tanks, rather than M60A3s. The one in the photo is an M60A1.

To be more correct, Marines never used M60A3/A3TTS, only M60A1 RISE/PASSIVE, then all of them were replaced by M1A1HC's.

None. No enemy vehicle in conventional warfare has ever successfully scored a catastrophic kill on an Abrams. For that matter, I'm not sure if there has been any catastrophic losses from any enemy weapon system other than IED's. I know of one instance of the turret being penetrated from an RPG...a 1 in a million shot hit the hull/turret seam...thankfully minor injuries and the vehicle was relatively undamaged. Other than IED's though, I'm pretty sure the only losses have been from blue on blue incidents.

Oh wait.

In 1991 some M1's were disabled by shot's from T-72M/M1's. In OIF many were disabled by RPG and some destroyed by secondary effect, engine fire, this is because PMCS procedures were not in mind of many crews, now situation is better so there are no engine fires after IED or RPG hit.

This M1A2SEP with perforated side turret was hit by captured M136, side turret armor have 500mm protection level vs. CE at 0 deegres, in this time in are were tank operted there were no RPG's with such warheads, and many people that interested in this attack have get infos that these was effect of attack by M136 with 500mm warhead penetration level.

Side rear hull that is only protected by non balistic skirt is vurnabale to RPG's even with 300mm RHA penetration level, side hull protected by heavy balistic skirts are over turret section probably protected against 250-300mm penetration level warheads and over driver compartment are protected against 900mm penetration level warheads or even more.

Side hull is protected against up to 40mm modern APFSDS rounds on it's full lenght and probably more over driver compartment.

IED's are different story, if bigger IED then worser situation for tank and it's crew, there were 4 to 5 M1's that ran over overkill IED's and were completely destroyed, but some crew members survived.

Hence, even with T.U.S.K. kit M1's are not fully protected agains IED's with insane amount of TNT!

[Bulgaroktonos]

To be more correct, Marines never used M60A3/A3TTS, only M60A1 RISE/PASSIVE, then all of them were replaced by M1A1HC's.

You're absolutely right, but I wonder where I got the idea that they used M60A3s.

[Rustman]

Oh wait.

In 1991 some M1's were disabled by shot's from T-72M/M1's. In OIF many were disabled by RPG and some destroyed by secondary effect, engine fire, this is because PMCS procedures were not in mind of many crews, now situation is better so there are no engine fires after IED or RPG hit.

This M1A2SEP with perforated side turret was hit by captured M136, side turret armor have 500mm protection level vs. CE at 0 deegres, in this time in are were tank operted there were no RPG's with such warheads, and many people that interested in this attack have get infos that these was effect of attack by M136 with 500mm warhead penetration level.

Side rear hull that is only protected by non balistic skirt is vurnabale to RPG's even with 300mm RHA penetration level, side hull protected by heavy balistic skirts are over turret section probably protected against 250-300mm penetration level warheads and over driver compartment are protected against 900mm penetration level warheads or even more.

Side hull is protected against up to 40mm modern APFSDS rounds on it's full lenght and probably more over driver compartment.

IED's are different story, if bigger IED then worser situation for tank and it's crew, there were 4 to 5 M1's that ran over overkill IED's and were completely destroyed, but some crew members survived.

Hence, even with T.U.S.K. kit M1's are not fully protected agains IED's with insane amount of TNT!

I didn't say that vehicles weren't damaged, but there has never been a reported case of a catastrophic kill of an Abrams by enemy fire in either Desert Storm or the Iraq invasion. A few mobility kills...even a firepower kill or two...but never a complete system failure. Every catastrophic kill of an Abrams we have on record has been from DU penetrations in either friendly fire incidents or deliberate destruction to avoid capture (3 vehicles in Desert Storm were deliberately destroyed..two were stuck in mud and one was a mobility loss from enemy fire).

[Damian90]

Hey I agree with that.

but there has never been a reported case of a catastrophic kill of an Abrams by enemy fire in either Desert Storm or the Iraq invasion. A few mobility kills...even a firepower kill or two...but never a complete system failure.

Yest there were no catastrophic kill as direct effect of perforation of armor but, secondary effect's like engine and later whole vehicle fire, vandalism from Iraqi hands etc. ended with many tanks completely destroyed.

+

Every catastrophic kill of an Abrams we have on record has been from DU penetrations in either friendly fire incidents or deliberate destruction to avoid capture (3 vehicles in Desert Storm were deliberately destroyed..two were stuck in mud and one was a mobility loss from enemy fire).

And this is completely true, in fact both ODS and OIF when conventional war was still rolling there were max 5 to 10 tanks destroyed, problems started in OIF when asymetrical warfare starts, very big IED's, side hit's from more modern RPG's and secondary effects of this hit's. The true is M1's were not ready for such combat in time when stabilisation operations starts.

And it's shame that T.U.S.K. was send to Iraq so late, think how many M1's can surviv attacks only lightly damaged in, i.e. 2005 or 2006if T.U.S.K. was fielded earlier, i.e. in 2003 or 2004.

[Rustman]

Hey I agree with that.

Yest there were no catastrophic kill as direct effect of perforation of armor but, secondary effect's like engine and later whole vehicle fire, vandalism from Iraqi hands etc. ended with many tanks completely destroyed.

+

And this is completely true, in fact both ODS and OIF when conventional war was still rolling there were max 5 to 10 tanks destroyed, problems started in OIF when asymetrical warfare starts, very big IED's, side hit's from more modern RPG's and secondary effects of this hit's. The true is M1's were not ready for such combat in time when stabilisation operations starts.

And it's shame that T.U.S.K. was send to Iraq so late, think how many M1's can surviv attacks only lightly damaged in, i.e. 2005 or 2006if T.U.S.K. was fielded earlier, i.e. in 2003 or 2004.

I agree...like I said, the whole game changed once the invasion was over. IED are the real killer. RPG's....meh...so-so effective, depending on what it hits. But..I've seen deep buried IED toss vehicles like they were toys. We had to bring in a casevac once from a Marine Abrams that took an IED hit, destroyed the vehicle, and burned up the crew real bad. Yea..I'd place my money on an Abrams any day in a shooting fight...but in an unconventional war like in Iraq, all bets are off.

[Damian90]

Yea..I'd place my money on an Abrams any day in a shooting fight...but in an unconventional war like in Iraq, all bets are off.

Oh, this is true for all modern tanks, I have pic of Merkava Mk.4A after overkill IED, from what I know all crew was dead (RIP), turret blowed off, etc.

I have also pic of Merkava Mk.2B after rear hull hit, rear of the hull completetly destroyed, turret landed on glacis plate, effect of ammo coock off, well, this is true for all tanks besides M1 (M1 have all ammo isolated in ammo compartment with armored bulkheads and armored sliding doors and blow off panels).

So all tanks are vurnabale in unconventional warfare, but then again, like in conventional warfare, thee is no substitute for MBT.

Best way is just to upgrade MBT's with addon armor and field some APS.