PC Upgrade - Views sought

[Apache]

I put a similar post in some time ago but decided to wait for release of CM2 and Medieval TW. I need to upgrade and while most of the stuff requires some thought there a five key areas that I would welcome views on. Esp stuff to avoid and what's recommended.

1) Sound card - am looking at the Audigy probably

2) Video - Considered Radeon 8500 (but I understand it will not do fog). Now looking at 64M GeoForce 3 or a 2GTS. Any probs with those?

3) RAM - at least 256, 512 if I can. Am a little unsure of the difference or any benefits of either RDRAM, DDR RAM or SDRAM?

4) OS - Windows. XP, Millenium, 2000 or 98? I have 98 on current system and it's OK but many printers etc don't seem to support it now. Doubtless I'd be able to persuade a manufacturer to stick on one of the latter versions of Windows more easily.

5) Athlon or P4?

Any potential clashes or comments on other bits greatfully accepted.

[Schrullenhaft]

1) Sound - an Audigy generally should be fine. However people may often experience certain problems with Sound Blasters and various motherboard chipsets. The problem isn't solely related to Creative products or VIA chipsets. If you purchase a VIA chipset based motherboard, then I'd suggest getting a Voyetra/TurtleBeach Santa Cruz sound card.

2) The GeForce cards should be fine. Occasionally there are problems with the drivers (like the latest beta at the moment, but the official drivers are fine in CM), eventually they get ironed out, but sometimes it takes awhile. There might be a significant difference in price between the 2GTS and the 3 series. If you can afford the price difference I'd suggest the 3 series. The GeForce 4 MX has a lower memory bandwidth, but a somewhat more powerful GPU compared to the 3 series. I suggest the 3 series unless you're considering the Ti4200/4400/4600.

3) SDRAM is the slowest (and least expensive) of the three memory types you mentioned. However what memory you use is dictated by the motherboard you get. Some motherboards can accomodate DDR & SDRAM, with the DDR being highly preferred. RDRAM is the most expensive of the three and is strictly for Pentium 4 systems and certain chipsets (Intel 850 & SiS R658). Most of the popular and less expensive Pentium 4 motherboards use DDR. A vast majority of Athlon motherboards also use DDR, so that would probably be the memory to check out for pricing.

4) I'm surprised support for Windows 98 drivers is drying up. Probably because Microsoft said it is no longer a 'supported OS' and they'll no longer be doing 'driver certification (WHQL)' for that OS. Windows ME drivers should usually work in this case (but not always).

The choice on OS is a bit of a personal one. Right now the least expensive OEM copy is Windows XP Home. Windows 2000 and Windows XP Pro are both more expensive and they basically offer more networking features than Home (and these features usually shouldn't matter too much to Home users unless they're experimenting with Windows 2000 Server, etc.). If you're worried about future support of the OS, then XP would be your best choice since that is the direction Microsoft is pushing developers. With a new computer it shouldn't be too much of a problem and it can be quite a bit more stable than Win 9x/ME. I personally prefer Windows 2000, but it's a personal preference based on the interface and other small details.

5) CPU - this is also a personal choice. The Athlon systems are usually a bit less expensive and give good performance. The P4's are starting to come down in price right now and they currently occupy the 'speed throne' with the fastest CPUs. However very fast RDRAM and a matching motherboard is a bit more expensive than comparitive Athlon systems. There are some CPU intensive tasks that the faster P4's win quite handily and there are other benchmarks were the Athlons do a bit better.

It's hard to say which one will be more upgradeable. The fastest P4's have a front side bus speed of 133/533MHz and will probably hit 3.06GHz at the end of this year or the beginning of the next. AMD will release the Clawhammer Athlon's sometime late next year and these should help AMD become a bit more competitive performance-wise (the Athlons are reaching their maximum clock speeds without significant redesign).

Upgrades to new CPUs will probably require new motherboards, especially if the front side bus changes speeds.

[Apache]

Thanks for reply Schrullenhaft - very useful. Have found this spec in an ad (Mesh PLC) that I am very tempted with:

AMD Athlon XP2100

512M 266 Mhz HP PC2100 DDR

Asus A7V33 MB with VIA KT333/Award Chipset/Bios

60G Ultrafast HD with 2Mb buffer

MSI GTi4200-TD64 Graphics Card

64M nvidia GeoForce4 Ti 4200

Windows XP Home (seems no choice)

16 x DVD

Creative Sounblaster Audigy with Firewire port

Creative Labs Inspire 5300 5 point surround

17" Mitsubishi Diamond Pro Monitor

My only concern is with the Audigy, given the problem mentioned above with the VIA motherboard chipsets. The manufacturer cannot supply Santa Cruz option. Will this be much of a problem?

The only way I can go Santa Cruz is to use Dell who are P4 based but still use Asus VIA chipsets (the P4 obviously results in a lower spec machine for same price). Am I getting too hung up on the Audigy/VIA issue?

Most of the big names in UK PCs are selling Athlon/Asus/VIA/Audigy combinations and, while they offer some other sound combo's, all are Creative, Live etc. Some have onboard/integrated sound that I have always been dubious of. I have always used separate cards before, assuming the quality and functionality is better. It seems I will have little option but to plump for the Audigy/VIA combo and risk it.

From the comments above sounds like the rest of the system is OK?

If I use the P4 option from Dell (which gives the option of the Santa Cruz card) a 19" monitor and 512 RAM really pushes up the price of this option. The standard RAM is 256 RD. Seeing as it is RD is 512 necessary though?

A further P4 option is a Mesh self configured one but it still uses the Asus/VIA/Audigy combo which again defeats the object. Only plus point I suppose is that it is P4 based (some may consider that a plus):

P4 2.4

Asus P4S33 MB (this will still have a VIA chipset so seems to defeat the whole point)

512 (2x256 DDR) RAM (no RDR option available)

40G HDD 7200 RPM 2Mb buffer

128M nvidia GeForce Ti4200

16 x DVD

Creative SB Audigy

Creative Labs 4 point surround

Ant views on the above welcome. This VIA/Audigy issues worries me, but is it justified?

[ September 18, 2002, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Apache ]

[BeWary]

Personally, I like your AMD system choice there. I wouldn't be too concerned about the VIA/Audigy problem. A quick search of www.soundblaster.com and www.viatech.com reveals no known issues regarding VIA chipsets and the Audigy. Plus, it is such a widely-used combination that I can't imagine you'll have many, if any, problems.

As far as onboard sound goes. It used to be bad, but I recently built a machine for a friend with an Asus A7N266 motherboard using their Dolby Digital on-board sound (though it did actually come with a plug-in board) and the sound was as good as my SB Live 5.1. I also have on-board sound on my current motherboard (an Asus A7M266 w/a Cmedia chip). I was actually surprised that the sound was pretty good (especially considering we're talking about Cmedia here ), but it was a pain to do a 4-speaker setup with it. I now have it disabled and am using the SB Live card.

As for memory, if it costs you more than $50 or so to upgrade to 512MB, just get 256. You can always go to www.crucial.com (the best, most reliable place for memory IMO) and get what you need for cheap. Although consider the number of memory banks on your new motherboard and whether you're likely to upgrade the memory in the future.

For monitors, I like my 19" Viewsonic, but 17" is probably sufficient too. 19" monitors are still significantly more expensive (generally $130 - $200 more) than 17 inchers. The machine I built for my friend had a 17" Viewsonic A70F monitor and the color on that thing is beautiful. Much clearer and colorful than my 19" Viewsonic, which is a few years old.

If you can afford it just go with a GeForce4 Ti 4200 64MB. They're pretty darn cheap now and it makes more sense to go with that than a GeForce 3 or 2 at this stage of the game, especially when you compare prices. To get a good feel of what things should cost go to www.pricewatch.com.

By the way, good choice of motherboard. I love my Asus motherboards. Have built 4 computers with them and never had a problem.

Have fun,

BeWary

[ September 18, 2002, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: BeWary ]

[Schrullenhaft]

Actually the SoundBlaster issue with VIA chipsets (and other chipsets for that matter) is pretty well known, despite Creative's lack of mention. There's no guarantee that you will or won't see this problem. It was actually fairly common with some slightly older VIA chipsets, though I believe the new ones can suffer just as well since the issue primarily lies with Creative. PCI Latency is one of the better known factors coupled with the lack of bus-mastering by the SoundBlasters. However not everyone experiences these problems, even if their setups are fairly similar.

You may want to talk to the dealer's support line to find out what they may know about this issue. They may or may not know of it.

It's not absolutely crucial that you get a Santa Cruz sound card, it just that they don't suffer from this problem like the SoundBlaster line does. So I'd suggest going with the Athlon system you have checked out above, just be prepared to possibly purchase another sound card if you do have problems.

[Apache]

Thanks. Order placed, Mesh Athlon it is. Fingers crossed XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[TankDawg]

Radeon 8500 = No fog!?!?

someone please explain. Am looking hard at the 128mb version of it.

thanks in advance.

[Schrullenhaft]

This has been mentioned time and time again. ATI DOES NOT SUPPORT FOG TABLES UNDER DIRECTX. None of their cards will support fog-tables under DirectX, including the latest Radeon 8500DVs and 9700 Pros. ATI does however support fog-tables on the Mac under RAVE.

The lack of fog-table support (even by emulation)is a programming choice that ATI has made and they apparently haven't changed their opinion about supporting it. Instead ATI supports 'vertex-fog' for DirectX, which doesn't look as nice from the dated screenshots I've seen. Fog-tables are also known as Pixel Fog in Microsoft documentation. According to Microsoft you can't use fog-tables with a Vertex Shader, which may be the reason that ATI doesn't pursue adding the capability to their drivers.

None of the tweakers for the Radeons or Rage128's will change this fact. While they may list options for W,Z, etc.-fog, none of them will have an effect on CM. I honestly doubt that ATI will add support for fog-tables with their drivers in the future.

With the engine rewrite I'm not sure if BTS/BFC will consider supporting different fog types. There are a lot of variables and issues to consider, especially once different APIs are considered.

[ September 18, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]

[PiggDogg]

Apache,

Might I suggest one small modification in your video card choice. You might consider a GeForce4-4200 with 128 meg ram instead of 64 meg.

Of course, 128 meg is better than 64 meg. Also, the 128 should not be much more expensive than the 64 meg, maybe $10 or $20 bucks.

Cheers, Richard

[Cull]

I'm on the verge of building a new system, and here is my setup so far. It is based on way too many hours of research, with the goal of a pretty darn swell gaming system (with compatible components!) for under $1200 US. Includes everything but speakers, monitor, keyboard, and mouse.

CPU: Athlon XP 2000+ (1.6Gb) My impression is that Athlon offers equal performance for less, especially if you're mostly gaming. People that overclock (I don't!) seem to be Athlon fans, as they get even more for the money vs. Pentiums. I don't know that much about it...

Mobo: Asus A7KV333 w/RAID

RAM: one stick Corsair 512Mb

Graphics card: Gainward gF4 Ti4200 (must have FOG! I'd love the new ATI 9700 Pro, but no fog kills it for me)

HD: Western Digital WD400B (40Gb)

CDR-RW: LiteOn 48/12/48 (I love LiteOn!)

Soundcard: Turtle Beach Santa Cruz (I've always used Soundblaster, but want a simpler, less-cluttered option. This one is less than half the Audigy cost, and gets good praise)

OS: XP Home(using it now, and LOVE it..no problems at all, gaming or otherwise. Do a clean install and you're golden)

Case: Antec SX835II (350Watt power supply, 2 front USBs and front firewire port)

This actually comes in at under $1000. Compare that setup to a prebuilt of equal price, and emit evil giggle.

If I add them:

Speakers: either Klipsch 4.1 ($239 @ newegg.com) or Logitech Z-560 ($199, great reviews)

Monitor: Hitachi CM721FB ($269, .20 dot pitch!) or NEC FE950+ ($330) (both 19" CRTs with flat-screens, great buys for the $, and great reviews)

Anyway, don't know what that does for you, but there it is. Of course, it's all about preferences, so take it with a grain of salt.