PMC's?

[MrSpkr]

I remember a psych class that I took talked about how a teacher had some of his students question how could something like Nazi Germany ever exist. So he conducted an experiment with the school. He slowly granted people power and prestige, gave them uniforms and bands to wear with an insigna on them.

Before long, his group was ruling the school, bullying the other students and policing the school after hours. It finally came to a head when some parents tried to break into his office after hours to figure out what was going on. They were caught by his "followers" and beaten.

The entire class had to go through a "detoxing" brief and many of them wept when they realized how far they had gone.

Any links to pages discussing this experiment? It sounds fascinating.

Steve

[Falconander]

MrSpkr,

I believe this is the one but I will continue to search on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave

--> an eery article and forgot this was high school (thought it was a college)... look at the bottom where they said the same experiment was done with younger kids...

Although the specter of fascist resurgence seems largely forgotten in the euphoria of German reunification, it may not be far beneath the peaceful veneer of that nation, or any other, for that matter. Even the most ostensibly free and open societies are not immune to fascism's lure - including places like Palo Alto.

What came to be known as the "Third Wave" began at Cubberly High School in Palo Alto as a game without any direct reference to Nazi Germany, says Ron Jones, who had just begun his first teaching job in the 1966-67 academic year. When a social studies student asked about the German public's responsibility for the rise of the Third Reich, Jones decided to try and simulate what happened in Germany by having his students "basically follow instructions" for a day.

But one day turned into five, and what happened by the end of the school week spawned several documentaries, studies and related social experiments illuminating a dark side of human nature - and a major weakness in public education.

[MrSpkr]

Thanks, Falconender.

Steve

[Falconander]

Jarhead,

Normally I don't make such 'stupid' posts but occasionally either because of boredom or to cause a stir I'll talk about such tandems of possibilities.

We are quite sheltered here and thank God for it and the troops out there who keep it this way...

But even the study points to that dark side of human nature, a nature that even a bunch of high schoolers could succumb to. My point being that it is easy to claim that we are above such things as a civilized society, but when in reality, we have never been pushed to see if we would break or not.

Clearly it would not take as much as a push for some, take the two guys who pulled guns on each other in the middle of a Toys R Us over Christmas and started shooting each other over the last toy.

Now... take your country, your family, your wife, your kids, occupy your homeland and yes... the pot is going to boil over. Your might not have access to the M1 of my early post, but you find a way to make do and get even or fight for your rights. The people in control will call you a terrorist because the best you can manage is a crude bomb at a police checkpoint.

Before you rant, I am not supporting terrorism and I have served my time in the militrary protecting this nation. What I am saying is that we can't cast blame from atop our pedestal without knowledge.

So yes, although falted, I like to think even my worst enemy has some type of honor, no matter how twisted it might seem.

[acrashb]

the best you can manage is a crude bomb at a police checkpoint.

That would be asymmetric warfare - note the Police part of the checkpoint - as long as civilian casualties are minimized and not the goal. This is terrorism: http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=17438 Note the clear difference in intent and outcome.

[Falconander]

MrSpkr,

This is another good read on The Third Wave...

http://www.ronjoneswriter.com/wave.html

Acrashb,

Point taken...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare

Just took a break from work and got back from the gym. I was thinking about this and started to think about us bombing Japan and our quest to maintain nuclear dominance. This massive death of civilians could be considered a terrorist attack. If someone launched such attacks at us in the United States, we would call it an act of terrorism unless we could pinpoint it to a country. At the time it would be an act of war.

We don't want anyone else to develop nuclear power/weapons but we have thousands ourselves. Who are we to dictate what others can do or not do. (I really don't want anyone to get Nukes by the way). We use our ability to wipe people out to enforce our views of how the world should be. Kind of sounds like the threat of violence to get our way.

But is not the intent and the result the same? One by a government, one by a group. The line between war and terrorism is very fine.

The years to come are going to checkered with unconventional warfare against the US. The attacks against the towers, while terrorism, was a devastating blow to the US economy and still is rippling through our system. This is going to be the face of war in the future. The IEDs and things like that are just the start. The enemy cannot fight us face to face so this system of attacks will prevail.

They might be part of asymmetric warfare as Acrashb stated but we will hear it in the paper as terrorist attacks.

We will pull out of Irag and Afghanistan with less than desired results due to the inability to fight the way we need and due to the loss of support from people back home. They cannot stomach the long deployment, the losses sustained, the civilian deaths.

All of which in one way or another was a result of the success of terrorist attacks. The price will be too heavy to pay and we will pull out.

----

Don't get me wrong the war in Iraq has had numerous successes and a great demonstration of a lot of our joint wespons but the fatal flaw in the whole system is the media and the lack of public support.

[Falconander]

Damn...double post...sorry...

MrSpkr,

Look up this experiment... not as good as the other but still notable....

Jones' Third Wave also caught the attention of Stanford University psychologist Philip Zimbardo, whose famous prison experiment several years later resulted in college students lapsing into sadism and eventual emotional breakdown after being assigned the role of guard in prison.

[theFightingSeabee]

All that is needed is a mod and boom, blackwater.

[Dietrich]

Do soldiers ever kill and rape civilians? Go and see "Redacted".

The question "do soldiers ever kill and rape civilians" was purposely not among those I asked in that post because yes, there are countless documented instances of regular soldiers (as oppposed to irregulars/mercenaries) raping and killing civilians. Having done fairly extensive (for an amateur) research into war and its myriad aspects, I need no film to convince me of the not infrequent brutality of the 'average' soldier.

You people can stand playing those armed men??? But they kill people! I'm not playing the game until the Catholic Girl Scouts module comes out, then I can make cookie baking and sale scenarios!

Sergei's comment may have been intended to be satirical, but I think he makes quite a good point. Just think of it: There are countless 'war' games available, but little more than one game (that I know of) along the lines Sergei alluded to, namely, Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball -- buxom bikini-clad babes playing volleyball. Why is it okay, even preferable, for us males to play games of which killing (and lots of it) is an instrinsic part, rather than games which celebrate healthful sport and womanly beauty? *shrug* Our respective societies (people from many different countries post in these forums, some of which are in neither North American nor Europe) hold that generally it's preferable to kill than to behold a scantily-clad beautiful woman.

[Falconander]

Dietrich,

Wow, this post is really going off course.....but I'll bite...

I think a couple of things get in the way of what you are talking about. First of all, I'd buy a good girl game any day of the week if I they pranced around in Bikinis (or less). I think SimCity can come up with a SinCity version. Oh, how cool would that be.

But the things that get in the way of this is

1) My Wife

2) Kind of awkward playing that type of game with your kids. In stead of playing Gears of War or Call of Duty I'd be playing "Buxom Bikini Babes Battle Bots"

3) The internet has a bountiful amount of free sites with all of the content someone would want, both PG rated (Girls Pro Volleyball) and Non-PG

But the male ego is appeased with a healthy dose of female characters to play with in most games. Balder's Gate had some very attractive females and most games now allow you to create your character.

My youngest always asks why I play female elves.... the reason is that I appreciate a good dose of female beauty and if I can get it while battling at the same time.... well that is just a thing of beauty

[BlackMoria]

It is social somewhat. The other part is genetic differences between males and females.

Boys grow up watching shows like GI Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, etc. What are these shows about.... at the core, they are about conflict resolution through violence.

Girls grow up watching Care Bears, My Little Pony, Hannah Montana, etc.

What are these shows about.... at the core, social interaction with the occasional conflict resolved through non-violent means.

Interesting that my niece, who liked GI Joe, Transformers and Ninja Turtles gowing up also enjoys FPS games, World of Warcraft and the occasional wargame. My other nieces who grew up with My Little Pony and Barbies don't like these game but things like the Sims, etc.

Which explains why I prefer CM Shock Force to a bimbo beach volleyball game. Business before pleasure....

[Falconander]

But what if you could have both...

which after a very long twisted turn I will bring back the thread to the original questions about mercs. I think I would whole heartedly support mercs if they were bikini clad femme fatales wielding M60s. See I knew we would get back on topic. Who is for Bikini clad mercs?

[Dietrich]

First of all, let me say that in asking these half-rhetorical/half-literal questions and such, I don't mean to be a rabble-rouser or a controversy-monger; I'm just baffled by certain prevalent and contradictory societal norms and want to stimulate discussion thereupon.

Wow, this post is really going off course...

Seems to me this whole thread has gone off course. (Maybe this particular discussion should be restarted in the form of a General Discussion thread....)

I think a couple of things get in the way of what you are talking about. First of all, I'd buy a good girl game any day of the week if I they pranced around in Bikinis (or less). I think SimCity can come up with a SinCity version. Oh, how cool would that be.

That's one aspect of the irony: a "good girl" game would only show the characters fully dressed, right?

But the things that get in the way of this is

1) My Wife

As far as I've observed, it seems that the only kind of games wives play (when they're not doing more wifely things like doing chores, taking care of the kids, or shopping) are ones that don't have characters -- Tetris, solitaire, Pong, etc.

2) Kind of awkward playing that type of game with your kids. Instead of playing Gears of War or Call of Duty I'd be playing "Buxom Bikini Babes Battle Bots"

But isn't that because your kids are subject to the societal expectation that you would/should play violence-based games? Come to think of it, would your kids even want to play a game like "Buxom Bikini Battlebot Babes", with their dad or not, even if doing so didn't make you uncomfortable?

3) The internet has a bountiful amount of free sites with all of the content someone would want, both PG rated (Girls Pro Volleyball) and Non-PG

But that makes it sound like what you (not you personally but you in the abstract sense) want is little more than thinly veiled porn. Porn, even stuff that's so softcore as to not really be called porn, isn't what I'm talking about. (If one thinks that an image of a good-looking woman in a swimsuit is porn, then I guess porn is available even in Newsweek and on primetime network television.) I'm talking about how it's okay, even preferred, for guys to play games founded on violence, even repeated and frequent killing, rather than games which feature nonviolent things, especially if said games include beautiful women (even ones who are fully dressed).

But the male ego is appeased with a healthy dose of female characters to play with in most games.

Indeed. Lara Croft, Rayne (Bloodrayne), [and half a dozen others I for some reason can't think of at the moment], just to name a few. Characters who are not only female but are good-looking as well as strong, intelligent, capable, and determined.

It is social somewhat. The other part is genetic differences between males and females.

How so? (The genetic differences, I mean.)

Boys grow up watching shows like GI Joe, Transformers, Thundercats, etc. . . . Girls grow up watching Care Bears, My Little Pony, Hannah Montana, etc.

Ah, but why do boys grow up watching GI Joe, Transformers, etc.? Is it not largely because they are discouraged from watching shows like Care Bears, My Little Pony, etc., because said shows embody values which the society at large deems are not seemly for males?

Which explains why I prefer CM Shock Force to a bimbo beach volleyball game. Business before pleasure....

But why "bimbo beach volleyball game"? If you were at the beach with a bunch of your friends (guys as well as gals) and the gals were playing volleyball and just happened to be wearing bikinis, you wouldn't think, "Heh, what a bunch of bimbos", would you? To me, casual labeling of bikini-clad volleyball-playing girls as "bimbos" kinda proves my point -- society says it's better for a man to kill his fellow (well, his fellow man, who presumably is a member of the group labeled the enemy) than for him to look upon a beautiful woman.

I've had the experience more than a few times where I feel drained and morose after a couple-hour stretch of CM or CoD, at which point I take a stroll through my beautiful-women-in-various-modes-of-undress digital image archive and heave a physical as well as psychological sigh of relief.

But what if you could have both...

which after a very long twisted turn I will bring back the thread to the original questions about mercs. I think I would whole heartedly support mercs if they were bikini clad femme fatales wielding M60s. See I knew we would get back on topic. Who is for Bikini clad mercs?

Isn't the M60 kinda heavy? Not too heavy for yer typical bikini-clad mercenary babe, I suppose? How 'bout an M249 or an MG3?

But to actually give an answer to the 'PMCs/mercs yes or no' question of this thread: CMSF isn't designed for the kinds of situations you would most often find PMCs in, but for the same vibe you could make a scenario with HBCT/SBCT scout squads protecting a Syrian spy (standing in for a non-military VIP) during an ambush by Uncons. *shrug*

[BlackMoria]

How so? (The genetic differences, I mean.)

This is a large amount of research on differences between males and females and the differences is more than difference sex organs. At the fundamental level, the male and female brain differ in metrics like logic, emotion, empathy, reasoning, aggression, etc. There is a ton of written material about so anyone can check it out.

Ah, but why do boys grow up watching GI Joe, Transformers, etc.? Is it not largely because they are discouraged from watching shows like Care Bears, My Little Pony, etc., because said shows embody values which the society at large deems are not seemly for males?

Society values make it too simplistic an answer. Expose a child to a new experience like a never before seen toy or show and male children gravitate to certain experiences and female children gravitate to different experiences. Society values is one aspect but brain differences (as I stated above) is a bigger determinor than social values.

But why "bimbo beach volleyball game"? If you were at the beach with a bunch of your friends (guys as well as gals) and the gals were playing volleyball and just happened to be wearing bikinis, you wouldn't think, "Heh, what a bunch of bimbos", would you? To me, casual labeling of bikini-clad volleyball-playing girls as "bimbos" kinda proves my point -- society says it's better for a man to kill his fellow (well, his fellow man, who presumably is a member of the group labeled the enemy) than for him to look upon a beautiful woman.

Ah, but the issue here is a computer game vs real life. Certainly, no one except the purdish are going to complain about girls in binkinis playing volleyball in real life.

Now, make a computer game about it and ensure the binkinis are 'scanty' and it is not the sport of volleyball the game designer is advocating as the main design goal, is it? Otherwise, the girls would be fully dressed in more appropriate apparel for a volleyball court. And if the game as a social interaction aspect, guess how the girls are usually protrayed in the game.... you guessed it - bimbos. Hence my comments. It is a commentary about how women are portrayed in male dominated computer games.

[Lethaface]

As far as I've observed, it seems that the only kind of games wives play (when they're not doing more wifely things like doing chores, taking care of the kids, or shopping) are ones that don't have characters -- Tetris, solitaire, Pong, etc.

Hehe, mine swears with some game with coloured balls incoming on a revolving center ( wow that sounds strange ) on my old nokia 7250 phone, must be 8 years old or sumfin... But she sure as hell does keep that high score, i can get nowhere near

[Lethaface]

Ah, but why do boys grow up watching GI Joe, Transformers, etc.? Is it not largely because they are discouraged from watching shows like Care Bears, My Little Pony, etc., because said shows embody values which the society at large deems are not seemly for males?

Well I can tell from personal experience that a mother can't keep her child from those type of things in this society of war... hehe

Mine tried heavily for instance, but it only made my interest bigger after I got my means to access the things I was interested in.

I will never forget something my grandmother told me a few years ago about my youth. At the age of 4 or 5 years old I was consequently kept from any 'violent' toys like GI JOE. That year, during christmas I opened the 'main' present from my grandmother. I remember opening and finding a DOLL, knowing that I couldn't complain about a present, I was very dissapointed. What happened after that is something I couldn't remember, and I'm happy my grandmother told me: The present couldn't get my approval altough I didn't say I didn't like it. To be precies it was a doll, a girl, with a blue dress and eyes that would open or close dependent of the dolls position (standing / lying down). Within seconds of opening the package, I walked to the kitchen and put the doll lying down in the kitchen with the head laying in the sink. When asked by my grandmother what the doll was doing, I replied that the doll had to vomit. I then left the doll alone and later 'drowned' the doll in the sink filled with water under the comment that 'doll has to sleep'. Next morning the doll continued to sleep in some doll trolley, she never got my interest anymore. However my sister was a happy foster parent

I guess this proved quite a lesson to my mother, having probably influenced my grandmother into buying the doll, she never really told me the details. Perhaps war is in our genes and dolls are not?

About 'Nice woman in games versus action games': I guess that there is a little difference; I can't play war 'for real' (don't have the desire either), but I can play with my girl 'for real'. So I guess there is less incentive to do the Bikini Volley Ball, because the game play doesn't compare to the 'real' play hehehe

And watching some pictures of beautifull women with rich nature is perhaps more efficient in satisfying ones needs instead of having to push buttons as well while enjoying the view...

[Falconander]

Dietrich,

Actually I think society has gone a long way to positively support the strong female role as well as integration of different societies. Disney has done some great things in this regard. Mulan was a great movie and a fantastic heroine, Alladin, Tarzan and the lot. You have multi-national women in various roles.

Take this further to Doomsday (Watched last night), Wanted, Tomb Raider, Transformers etc ... great strong female roles who can kick some tail still.

I think the girls are putting down the dolls and chores and are going to start demanding more 'screen' time.

I think guys are going to demand a more challenging partner and vice versa. The world has gone into a high stimulus frenzy so we are looking for that in our games, our partners and even our downtime.

You even said you get some relief from browsing though pictures on the PC which is many a guys favorite pastime. There is a lot of beauty out there but in one sense this is just another form of sensory stimuli. So even in our downtime we are still looking for stimulus.

Could it be that we looking for new and improved ways to catch that same high that Chainsawing someone in Gears of War just doesn't do it for us anymore? Now we want live feeds from Iraq and Afghanistan so we can take it to the next level.

We are addrenalin junkies, that is what we are hard wired for. We sit and play wargames since not only do we have the visual/audio stimuli but our brain is working ovetime playing multiple aspects of the battlefield. One could argue that it is a control issue as if one game is too hard we stop playing. We cannot accept the lack of control, but given the right mix, we will sit there for hours getting our fix of stimuli and control.

Whatever it is, it beats the hell out of watching sitcoms on TV or soap operas.

I tell my wife I'll take my kids playing video games over watching spongebob any day of the week. Their brains turn to mush watching that stuff. Thank goodness my youngest likes History Channel, Discovery Channel, Lost Tapes (If yoiu don't watch this you have to...awesome show) etc....

But even these things cause him to have strong emotions. They talk about aliens, creatures, animal attacks, Black Holes and great military battles. The things that he really likes are all very stimulus driven and casue you to think.

It starts early on and some could say it is environment but some of it is hardwired.

I'll take the Pro Volleyball player over the Bimbo any day of the week no matter how they are dressed. Course Lara Croft trumps both of those but that is just my addrenalin seeking side of me talking.....

[Falconander]

Yeah... double post....sue me....

Lethaface,

When we grew up it was almost the same way but my Mom caved on a lot of things and thank God there were no dolls. But she fought the gun thing. One 4th of July I took a large tube and slit a hole down the side, strapped on a sling, fasted a grib to it and taped off one end. I proceeded to grab a bunch of bottlerockets and ran around with my friends firing my new rocket launcher at them.

My sister-in-law has her youngest boy take ballet, sing in the choir, play with dolls and the like. She was reverse role playing him for a number of years. Her oldest she tried to get him to avoid guns but now he is hell bent on joining the Marines, has a Air-soft gun as well as pellet gun and a army collection that I started him off on one Christmas. At least I saved the older one....