New player: Need some help

[Paulverisor64]

I bought this game earlier this month and I'm trying to understand how to keep my units together.

I do understand that you want to have the units within line of sight of the HQ unit.

As soon as my troops are under fire they completely abandon their orders which means that if I had a chance of taking an objective initially that I lose all hope of fulfilling the objective. Even my HQ units are turning tail and sneaking away from the battle.

Conversely I watched my opponent take a couple buildings while his units were under fairly heavy fire.

I would appreciate any suggestions. Perhaps someone might know of where I could find information on basic strategy.

I understand that the game is mimicing the efforts of self preservation of units in battle. This self preservation however will be costly to the units which have found forward cover.

[JasonC]

First, you want to keep your infantry squads within command distance of an HQ, either their own platoon HQ or a senior (company or battalion) HQ. Line of sight is not sufficient. The command line connecting the unit to its HQ needs to be red rather than black - red = in command, black = out of command. Out of command units are much slower to rally from enemy fire effects.

Second, how much a unit can stand being shot at depends on (1) the cover it is in (percent exposure numbers, low is good, high is bad) (2) its movement state (stationary and prone is good, sneaking is OK, upright using the "advance" command is tolerable, upright using "move" is bad, and "run" is horrible). Plus, of course, the strength of the incoming fire.

Third, proper "interval" is important, because all units within 25 meters of a targeted unit will take some morale hit from the incoming fire, even if it is not directly specifically at them, and within 15 meters that effect increases significantly. So it is a good idea to have all the squads 30 meters apart, so that fire at each one leaves the others unaffected and able to rally.

Easily the single biggest point is to use the "advance" command if you need to cross open ground under fire. It is tiring, however. Once the men get to "tiring" you need to rest them a minute or two, or they will go all the way to "tired" and won't really advance anymore.

The next biggest point is to spread the pain around by not asking too much of the men at once. Let any squad in "yellow" morale just rally, while others move out and draw the fire away from those rally-ers. Use every scrap of cover and halt for a minute or two in better pieces reached. This gives the men time to rally through enemy fire. Overall, it is *rally power* that gets men forward under fire, not movement rushing. Rally power is a per unit time thing (a flow or rate, not a one-off), and it works by having lots of different units snapping back from shaken to OK, or up from pinned to shaken, each minute.

If the men are taking too much heat, they will visibly "come apart" on you - some in red morale and not responsive to orders, some sideways sneaking in the open looking for better cover, many pinned and on long command delays before moving out, a few others tired from advance commands and shaken enough they produce little outgoing fire themselves. An infantry formation in such condition is no threat whatsoever to the enemy. It has been pushed too hard and has lost combat effectiveness.

The way to avoid this, paradoxical as it apparently seems for some new players, is to extend the period of time needed to accomplish any movement or advance. You don't try to minimize exposure time by rushing, you try to extend rally time and spread the enemy firepower over many units and many minutes. When a few forward units are pinned, only, nobody is red morale (or only 1 unit occasionally and not for too long), many others are OK morale - then the formation as a whole remains *dangerous* to the enemy.

The idea is to push only as hard as the men can stand while remaining dangerous, and to ooze into cover within good small arms range of the enemy, gradually accumulating and rallying at such ranges. When the better part of a company is in 25% exposure cover or better within 200 meters of the enemy, your firepower can "melt" them.

Firepower takes ground. Movement does not take ground. Movement is accomplished by rally power or by spending morale, and is only used to get to ranges and positions from which firepower will be effective.

I hope this helps.

[Paulverisor64]

Thanks so much Jason!

I do believe you've identified the primary reasons for my poor ability to take ground.

Early on had I used the Advance command instead of Move I don't think I would be in the bind I am in. I appreciate that you've ranked in order the best ways of taking ground, as well as the importance of rallying troops.

I haven't seen very much online in terms of basic gameplay. I have read the 200+ page manual, and even though this is helpful it pretty much lets you figure a lot out on your own.

This will help a lot!

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi

Do a search in the forums under "how to fight as..." or under JasonC "Russian Training Scenarios" and you will get loads of information.

Go to www.blowtorchscenarios.com to actually get the scenarios.

cheers

[Paulverisor64]

I have tried doing a forum search using "how to fight as" as my search subject. I am always getting the following message.

The search term you specified (to) is under the minimum word length (3) and therefore will not be found. Please make this term longer.

I have followed your link to the training exercises and will download and give them a try.

I appreciate everyone's help.

[dieseltaylor]

Not mentioned in the posts is the matter of troop quality. However as you have read the manual then you will know that the quality of troops means the better the quality the more robust they are. Consider your friends success and see if his successful units were veteran.

Also you will have seen how officers attributes help their men, and the different command ranges.

BF have actually helped the game I think by leaving everything slightly fuzzy with no rules to follow as how to accomplish this that and the other. Experience by fighting the game and knowledge from war accounts all help to make it immersive.

I think it is a game of combined arms and should be played as such. As a purely infantryman emulator it sucks but add mortars, HMG's, artillery, light armour, tanks etc and the game is the better for it.

It is a brilliant game but it does have flaws so if you think something sucks - you may be right : ) but there are many many excellent parts.

Added

this may be of interest:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=85186&highlight=infantry+tactics

[Der Alte Fritz]

I gave the forum search a try and the new one does not work as the old one did.

Never mind, I have them all on my hard drive, so let me know which country you are interested in and I will post them here.

cheers

[Paulverisor64]

Dieseltaylor: I was wondering to what effect the Captain actually had on battle the thread you attached suggests that his effects bleed over to the units close to him as well as extending the reach of command. Perhaps I should think about moving him up a little bit more to help those whose command lines have turned black. The person that I am playing against also suggested that it is good to learn combined arm tactics.

Der Alte Fritz: I'm glad that I'm just not using the search tool incorrectly. If it does not cause a lot of trouble it would be interesting to view the posts which you have collected from the forum. To be honest I would have no preference as to which army the helpful posts would have been gathered from. I plan on playing both sides. I would imagine that a lot of the advice would apply to both sides.

[JasonC]

On captains - company HQs - and battalion HQs, which are the same in game terms (just more men in each), they certainly do effect play. They work like any other HQ, the difference is that higher HQs can command *any unit* within their own command radius, while platoon HQs can command any *team*, plus only their own assigned squads.

This makes higher HQs the flexible portion of your overall team. They can draw squads from any platoon in your force and command them directly. A company with its HQ in the middle of the formation doubles the area in which each squad will be in command, and in practice increases the options for each squad somewhat more than that. You don't need to keep all the men in a given platoon in a tight ball around their own dedicated, lowest level HQ. Especially if the higher level HQ is good, it is a waste to leave him just a few leftover weapon teams. Instead, give him a "main body" and use it like an extra, super-sized platoon.

Another common use is to rally the stragglers from the front line platoons. You don't want the whole platoon to "fall out" because one squad panics. So let it continue at its own place, but slide a higher HQ over to get the panicked men back in command. Once they rally, move them up and transfer back into command of the front line platoon HQ again.

The squad will just seemlessly switch from one HQ to another, going with the closest one that can legally command it. (Pretty much - some adjusts for different command bonus ratings or lack of LOS).

As for combined arms, the first main point is just to learn what each weapon does best, in terms of the sort of target, cover and range it can hurt. For example, infantry small arms are best at close range, under 200 meters, and even under 100 meters vs. men in very good cover. You can't afford to "tickle" with them from 300 yards, the ammo won't last if you try to.

HMGs can cover longer ranges but only into low cover, open ground areas. Very long range fire into good cover just doesn't hurt enough. HMGs are "stealthy", meaning they can often remain mere sound contacts even when firing, if they are in cover and the range is long enough, like 250 meters plus. This lets them hit the enemy without giving him anything to hit back at. Snipers are also stealthy shooters, and light forward observors, or mortars firing with HQ spotters. All told these count as "heavy weapons" and can handle the 250-500 meter range envelope, without giving much away about your men's own positions.

Infantry in really good cover - trenches, stone buildings, woods foxholes - are hard to dislodge with small arms, and are better to deal with using high explosive. Full platoon positions in woods, the best weapon is a medium or large caliber FO (105mm or 150mm count as "medium" and "large"). Buildings, it is better to hit them direct fire with on map cannons, on tanks or towed guns, with 75mm or larger caliber. Those also work on trenches. Mortars work on woods foxholes and trenches but not so well vs. buildings (many hit outside etc). Smaller mortars - 50mm, 60mm - you often want 2 firing at once and expect them only to pin things, while a single 81mm or 82mm will break a point target in a minute or two. Mortars are the best counter to enemy guns, since you can hit them without giving them anything to hit back.

The trick for that is to have an HQ spot for the mortar. The HQ needs LOS and you need a red command line between them. Then the mortar *doesn't* need LOS, and can still fire at anything the HQ can see. It will be "area fire" at the location, and won't react to a target that moves, but guns can't get away.

Guns are a good counter to tanks, because they hide better and can therefore often get off the first shot while the tank is otherwise engaged, or facing the wrong way. Tanks are more vunerable from the side than head one, some dramatically so. A tank that outmatches a given opponent is another good "asymmetric" counter.

There are others - SMG armed infantry in tight terrain like woods or building interiors, for example, or armored vehicles with flame weapons up close against infantry in cover, or the better infantry AT weapons (panzerschrecks, bazookas, ampulets, or tank hunters / pioneers at point blank range) against armor trying to get too close and "frisky". Every threat has some specific countermeasure available.

The trick is finding ways to get your best match ups while denying your opponent his own best match ups. That usually comes down to exploiting better spotting and intel, or anticipating his moves. But it has to build off a base of knowing what you are trying to set up or get to happen in the first place.

I hope this helps. It is a deep game, there is plenty to learn about it.

[Der Alte Fritz]

How to Attack like a Soviet Rifle Corps in 1944

This is a historical discussion based on the Iasi-Kischinjow Operation. It didn't evolve into a set of recommendations on purchasing units for larger attacks and MEs and how to use them for that "historically-informed" feel... well CMBB hadn't come out yet! Then that topic area got reserved for CMBO and that thread dropped down into the depths...

Anyway, here's the questions:

1) Given 2000, 3000, or 5000 points... what would be reasonable forces to put together as a Russian player given various conditions (division type, time period, etc.)?

2) How would they have employed those forces within the scope of a CMBB battle?

Go green. Then in 1942 2,000 points should buy you a somewhat depleted motorised battalion, which comes with an 81mm FOO. Fill in the rest with 2 platoons of T34, one of Valentines, some assorted guns (45mm, 76mm ZIS-3 and 76mm m1927, 25mm AA) and you are laughing all the way to the VL. The Valentine MG ammo is good enough to deal with a lot of infantry even if there is no HE for the 2-pdr gun. The T34s come with tons of cannister.

All the guns are good to kill anything the Germans field from the flank, and since you have a total of 10-15 tank killers on the battlefield, chances are there will be opportunities for flank shots.

The Russians have two basic ways of attacking - the Mech way and the Infantry way. To do the former you really want a Mech division type and and armor force type. For the latter, a Infantry division type and combined arms force type works best. You can do them with combined arms Mech, or infantry force Infantry division, but those aren't as effective. (And the last better be facing no armor).

The Mech way is to take regular quality, and spend 1/2 to 2/3 of the point budget on armor. Very small amounts on arty (though air support, a cheap strafing type e.g., is fine if available for reasonable rarity). Modest amounts of infantry, often with SMGs, or mixed special types.

E.g. in mid 1943 6 T-70s, 12 T-34s, 2 SMG companies, 1 120mm FO. Or in a large point total fight, 18 T-34s, a motor rifle battalion, 2 on map 82mms, 3 120mm FOs. Or from that base, drop 1 120 FO and add a pioneer platoon. Or drop a 120 FO and 3 T-34s, add 5 T-70s and a pioneer company.

In 1943, the tanks can include 5 or 10 T-70s (or none if you take 18-21 T-34s), plus at least 9 T-34s. 1-2 platoons of SUs if you prefer those to T-70s.

How does the mech force type fight? A few overwatch groups can be formed around company HQs from rifle company HMGs, ATRs, single on map 82s, and FOs. They help deal with guns and HMGs in cases where the location makes it dangerous for tanks. Radio equipped T-70s scout behind a foot half squad "point". Pioneers in small groups clear AT mines the T-70s "discover".

The basic fighting approach, though, is small numbers of infantry scouting for numerous tanks, which shoot the heck out of anything run across. Then SMG infantry wades in and murders cowering survivors. The modest but reactive 120 FO support deals with blocks of woods too large for the tanks to see inside, when those can't just be bypassed. The main idea is to systematically kill the defenders along chosen approach routes with tank HE, with infantry taking a subordinate role (scouting, protecting from close assault, mopping up).

The other way of attacking, using an infantry division type and only combined arms levels of armor support, works best with "low" quality and relies on artillery prep fire and infantry depth.

Which arty to use depends heavily on the random rarity roll. But the basic idea is to take the cheapest large caliber (122mm and up) module available, as conscripts, and to max out the arty point budget with those. You can leave room for one reactive mortar FO, taken as greens - the 9x82mm that comes with a battalion, or 120mm - to have some reactive indirect fire support. Then the conscript heavies use a fire plan set up on turn 1, and the infantry advances conform to that plan.

At least 40% and typically more like 50% of the points should be spent on just infantry, with another 10-20% on support items, and arty more or less maxed out at 25%. As greens, this means even a 2000 point budget should include on the order of 500 men.

The basic idea is to reduce the defending infantry with the arty fire, not efficiently but on a large scale, and then to absorb the limited ammo of the surviving defenders with your own infantry depth, rally through that fire, and overwhelm the remaining defenders late in the fight.

Because the FOs are inflexible and the infantry is brittle and short ranged, however, you need other weapons to carry the fight in the early and middle stages. Ranged ones. 1-2 platoons of T-34s and a number of towed guns are the main answer there. Infantry overwatch groups are the other half, with light mortars, HMGs, etc.

E.g. I rolled one random rarity set that happened to give division 122s at +0 rarity, making them81 points apiece as conscripts. Flame T-34s happened to be 0 rarity too. I took 1 T-70 (a scout tank), 1 platoon of OT-34s, 6 conscript 122 FOs, 2 rifle companies, 1 SMG company, 1 pioneer company, and 2 76mm infantry guns.

The overwatch groups would be 2xHMG, 2x50mm mortar, 1x76mm towed IG. The 122s would fire 2-3 at a time at covered areas the infantry planned to take. The flame T34s and SMGs would act as the main assault group. Each company, plus the SMGs, would have 2 pioneer squads with an HQ attached.

Notice that the infantry way of fighting has the armor war conducted on a shoestring. It works best against an infantry type defender, or a combined arms one with an infantry division type - which limits the defense to at most a couple AFVs. The arty focus is meant to deplete an infantry and team based defense.

If you expect more armor for the defender, you may want to take a few AT capable towed guns - long 76s, or even 57mm ATGs if their rarity is livable (particularly in the Tiger era).

The tanks and the bulk of the infantry should be green, not conscript. The same goes for teams and any reactive mortar FOs. Only use "conscript" for the heavy FOs, the ones that plan to use map fire. It just makes that cheaper; the shells will still be fully effective.

You can try the infantry way using just infantry numbers in place of most of the heavy arty. If you have limited cover it won't work very well, though, because you won't have spots for all the men and just bunching up jacks up your own losses during the approach.

The tricky part tends to be anticipating the right objective lines to bombard when, and then getting the infantry to move instead of pin, to stay with the plan. Expect the first 5 minutes to be spent just creeping forward and dealing with initial LOS defenders, using your ranged weapons.

Minutes 5-15 tend to be the "approach fight", where the defenders do most of the shooting but you manage to get some infantry into cover close enough for full IDs. You want some planned arty falling then, on the foremost objectives.

Don't save your pre-planned arty for very late in the day, or the fight will be won or lost before it lands. You want spots where defenders will be, above all, but otherwise forward edge ones rather than back ones. Don't be afraid to use a wide sheaf with 2-3 FOs firing at the same location, to be sure some defenders will be under a thick enough the barrage.

After that period, the defense tends to soften. Early shooters have been IDed and silences, the arty has reduced the defense already, ammo constraints make it hard for the remaining defenders to keep up the volume of fire. Your infantry should rally and "lift" as the defense fire slackens, accumulating in cover areas clustered along the defender's original set up limit. Before the half hour mark you should have enough firepower up front and enough of an ammo advantage to outshoot the remaining defenders.

The first sort of attack will fail if you lose half of your tanks without smashing the defending AT network. The second sort of attack can fail if the arty misses completely or you push the infantry too hard too fast, breaking it beyond its ability to rally, against an intact defense.

You also need enough ranged heavy weapons stuff in the second type to keep your infantry from just getting pinned by HMGs and light guns too close to the start line for too long, "losing" the barrage. Then the defenders have time to recover from it before your own guys get close, remaining HMGs prevent your whole force getting forward, etc.

The solution to that problem is just having enough in the way of tanks, guns, on map mortars, etc to deal with enemy MGs and guns as they appear, within a few minutes for each. What makes it hard anyway is failure to get full IDs because you are still too far away. A single tank pushed forward can help, or a foremost infantry platoon on a covered route getting close enough for IDs.

That covers how to attack like a Russian. I hope it helps.

Funnily enough, this is actually CM size, at least when you look at the map size.

Iasi-Kischinjow Operation, August 1944 (Kischinjow would probably be called Kischinew in German unit histories)

Operations of 3rd Ukrainian Front (GOC General Tolbuchin)

Main effort of the front is in the sector of the 37th Army (GOC Lieutenant General Scharochin). Main effort of 37th Army is 66th Rifle Corps and 6th Guards Rifle Corps. The 37th Army has a 4km wide breakthrough frontage assigned to it. It is divided in two groupings, two corps up, one corps reserve. According to plan, it is supposed to break through the depth of the German/Romanian defense in 7 days, to a distance of 110-120km, with the distance to be covered in the first four days 15km each.

66th Rifle Corps (GOC Major General Kuprijanow) consisting of two groupings (61st Guards RD, 333rd RD up, 244th RD reserve). Attached are 46th Gun Artillery Brigade, 152nd Howitzer Artillery Regiment, 184th and 1245th Tank Destroyer Regiment, 10th Mortar Regiment, 26th Light Artillery Brigade, 87th Recoilless Mortar Regiment, 92nd and 52nd Tank Regiment, 398th Assault Gun Regiment, two Pioneer Assault Battalions, and two Light Flamethrower Companies.

Corps frontage 4km

Corps breakthrough frontage 3.5km (61st RD 1.5km, 333rd RD 2km)

Densities per kilometer of frontage:

Rifle battalions 7.7

Guns/mortars 248

Tanks and assault guns 18

Superiority

Infantry 1:3

Artillery 1:7

Tanks and assault guns 1:11.2

There is no man-power information for the divisions, but expect them to have between 7,000 - 7,500 men each, 61st GRD maybe 8,000-9,000. The soldiers were prepared over the course of August by exercising in areas similar to those they had to attack, and being brought up to speed on special tactics needed to overcome the enemy in their sector.

Density in 61st GRD sector per kilometer of frontage:

Rifle battalions 6.0

Guns/mortars 234

Tanks and assault guns 18

Density in 333rd RD sector per kilometer of frontage:

Rifle battalions 4.5

Guns/mortars 231

Tanks and assault guns 18

The initial attack

333rd RD did not bother with niceties like reserves and put three regiments up. 61st GRD attacked in classic two regiment up, one reserve formation. This proved to be lucky, since its right wing of 188th Guards(?) Rifle Regiment got stuck in front of the strongpoint Ploptuschbej. 189th Rifle Regiment on the left wing made good progress though, as did 333rd RD on its left. The GOC 61st GRD therefore inserted his reserve (187th GRR) behind 189th RR and off they went. When darkness came, 244th RD was inserted to break through the second line of defense. It lost its way though, and only arrived at 2300, by which time elements of 13th Panzer were counterattacking.

The German/Romanian opposition was XXX. and XXIX. AK, with 15th, 306th German ID, 4th Romanian Mountain Division, and 21st Romanian ID. 13th PD was in reserve. At the end of day one, 4th Romanian Mountain, and 21st Romanian Divisions were almost completely destroyed, while 15th and 306th ID were heavily damaged (according to a German source: 306th lost 50% in the barrage, and was destroyed apart from local strongpoints by evening). Almost no artillery survived the fire preparation.

13th Panzer counter-attacked 66th Rifle Corps on day one, and tried to stop it on day two but to no avail. A study on the divisions history says 'The Russian dictated the course of events.' 13th Panzer at the time was a materially understrength, but high manpower unit, with a high proportion of recent reinforcements. It only had Panzer IV, Stugs and SP AT guns. The division was at the end of the second day in a condition that it was incapable to attack or of meaningful resistance.

At the end of day two, the Red Army stood deep in the rear of German 6th Army. No more organised re-supply of forces would be forthcoming, and 6th Army was doomed to be encircled and chopped up. Franz-Josef Strauss, who was to become a very important German politician after the war, served with the Panzerregiment of 13th Panzer. He comments that the division had ceased to exist as a tactical unit on day three of the Soviet offensive: 'The enemy was everywhere.'

The comment on the result of 66th Rifle Corps operations in Mazulenko is: 'Because of the reinforcement of the Corps and the deep battle arrangements of troops and units the enemy defenses were broken through at high speed.'

This post is based on two German language sources, one being Mazulenko, 'The destruction of AG South Ukraine', and the other Hoffmann, 'Die Magdeburger Division', a history of 13th Panzer.

This is what the Red Army saw as a late war set-piece attack. It is a relentless meat-grinder, that was protected by Maskirovka, full control of the air, and prepared with almost scientific rigour. This kind of stuff made Blitzkrieg look like Kindergarten.

Almost exactly after a month the Red Army had destroyed AG South Ukraine completely. On the 6th September it had reached the Jugoslavian border at Turnu-Severin, on the 16th September it stood in Sofia, on the 19th it had reached the Hungarian border at Arad. Before that, on the 17th the old lands of the Danube Swabians at Temeschwar (Timisoara) were occupied.

I posted this because I thought some people maybe interested in this rather 'secondary' theatre, and also because it is one of the few accounts I have come across that details almost down to battalion level for some aspects the organisation and preparation for a Soviet offensive of this scale.

Originally posted by Von Paulus:

Are you sure that Russian batallions were at full strenght ?

But an attack of this type is totally possible and historically true ofr the Soviet side.

Yup, Germans were often outnumbered.

Paulus

________________________________________

Err, this is an historical attack, please read the info on the sources again.

And no, they were not full strength. The divisions were (as I said) at far below strength, it is therefore logical to assume that their consituent parts were below strength too. The authorised strength was ~9,200 men based on the 1943 shtat. These divisions are at about 80% of that.

One way to deal with that was to lose specialist personnel. Interestingly, according to Zaloga in order to reach 8,000 men division in October 1944, 3rd Ukrainian Front (the front undertaking this operation) ordered a specialist TO&E under which each rifle platoon would lose a squad. So the rifle battalions here would have about 2/3 TO&E strength. Assume a bit more for 61st GRD, since Guards divisions seem to have received more reinforcements.

Still, at 4.5 rifle battalions to a km, and 2/3 strength, you are effectively putting 3 full-strength rifle battalions in there per km. Open a CMBO map and have a look at what that looks like.

The Germans were heavily outnumbered at this point (as they were at many other points). But this did not happen because of some accident, or because the Germans overlooked something. It was the result of successful planning, Maskirovka that led to the Germans expecting the attack elsewhere or not at all, and consequent superior concentration of overwhelming force in a narrow breakthrough sector. Once resistance there was smashed, rapid movement would bring about the complete disintegration of the German rear areas as well as troop command and control.

If some of you are looking for the document from which the above tactical and organisational diagrams are taken what you are after is Handbook on USSR Military Forces, TM30-430, November 1945. The chapter on tactics is available from The Nafziger Collection, is part of the same series of books that are available from BTS themselves. The entire Handbook is “very rare” and I am very fortunate to have copy, however, there must be others out there.

Do a search using google.com and you will certainly find the chapter on Soviet tactics is commercially available.

[Der Alte Fritz]

German Sample Forces

Panzer Forces

Plenty varies with era, attacking or defending, mission and terrain. And there are all sorts of purely optional variants in terms of what guns to take and other forms of support.

1943

Here is some for the Kursk era, ID parent combined arms, attacking or ME portion of the question -

A modest portion of armor would look like this -

5 Pz IV H

Vet Pz Gdr company

Vet Pz Gdr platoon (4th), not armored.

2 251/2

1 105mm radio FO

Vet sharpshooter or extra LMGs

HMGs can ride the tanks, with HQs and radio FO. 81s wouldn't be able to, so for those you either want 251/2s or a few HTs to help move foot teams. One flakwagen or dismounted quad 20mm or 37mm AA can also make sense, e.g. for one of the 251/2s.

If you had more points you could double the armor, and it would still be a realistic mix.

When you have tanks they work in pairs, at first supplimenting the heavy weapons from range. But once the enemy starts to weaken - the same time the Pz Gdr mech force below would send in its main body - the tanks close in along with most of the Pz Gdrs.

1944

5000 Point Panzer forces

13 Panther

2 SS Mot. Pz Gdr Company

2 SS Arm. Pz Gdr Platoon

6 Schreck

4 SPW 251/9

3 105mm FO

Tasking - Use 8xSPW 251/1 from the Arm. platoons to transport the heavy weapons. Make 2 support groups each with 2x251/9, 4x251/1, 2xHQ, 4xHMG, 2x81mm (using company HQs). These can operate full strength or in half sections. Use the dismounted Arm. Pz Gdr platoons for battlefield recon, each with 2 half squads backed by a "patrol" of 2x8 men plus HQ. Use the "patrols" to KO enemy half squad scouts. One Panther can support these scouts. The 6 Mot. platoons each pair with a team of 2 Panthers and form your main body. Keep at least 2/3rds, as much as all of it in a "fist", on a frontage of no more than 2 platoons. Follow the most promising avenue of attack found by the scouts. If you detach 1-2 of these platoons, use them for a fixing action or a feint before the main attack. The heavy weapons can go on either flank of the main body or participate in the fixing action. Wait on the artillery until you have driven the enemy into a contained space, then fire with the full battalion of 105s.

Or

14 Tiger I replace the Panthers

Add one veteran Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon

Only 2 SPW-251/9

Task as above, with a 7th platoon with 2 Tigers, may be used as a reserve or to add punch to the scouts.

Or

As original, but

4 King Tigers

8 Panthers

For tanks. Drop the SPW 251/9s. Upgrade one FO to 150mm or +3 schrecks or 81mm FO for smoke.

Don't mess around with the armor war in such large engagements, take a full company of high powered armor and just win it.

3000 Point Panzer Forces

12 Pz IV

1 SS Pz Gdr Company

1 SS Pz Gdr Arm Platoon

3 SS Pz Gdr Mot Platoon

2 SPW 251/9

4 Schreck

1 120mm FO

Less potent tanks but still a full company worth, working 2 per infantry platoon. Smaller heavy weapons section and limited artillery support. The last thing to cut is tank infantry teams.

Or

8 Panther or 8 Tiger instead of 12 Pz IV

-1 Mot. platoon with the Panthers, -1 schreck

Only a half company with heavier armor at this point level, so 1-2 platoons of infantry do not have tanks. They can lead or act as a reserve etc.

2000 Point Panzer Forces

12 Pz IV

4 SS Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon (2 veteran or +2 vet schreck)

Or

10 Jagdpanzer IV

5 SS Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon

3 Schreck

1 81mm FO (use for smoke)

Or

8 Tiger I

4 SS Mot. Pz Gdr Platoon

2 Schreck

Everything goes but tank infantry teams, in half company armor strength or greater, with 2-3 AFVs per infantry platoon. You can trade in one tank for 1 artillery module if you feel you must have some indirect fire support. Spend leftovers on schrecks.

Panzer Grenadier Forces

For the pure mechanized force type, no tanks, you can realistically go with an armored recon force or with a panzergrenadier force. The Pz Gdr fight a bit better in CM, because of greater staying power. But either can be fun to try.

1500 point armored recce force, mech

armored car platoon, 8 rad 20mm type

armored aufklarung platoon (7 SPW 250/1)

aufklarung company, 4 HMG, 2 81mm type

flakwagen, quad 20mm type

2 75mm leIG, towed

105mm radio FO

fighter bomber (e.g. Me-109 F)

The SPWs and ACs between them can lift all the heavy weapons, company and weapons HQ, and FO.

Scout with the infantry on foot, hose anything you find with vehicle MGs and the heavy weapons. You have to use the dismounted heavy weapons (mortars, FO, HMGs) to deal with anything dangerous to the light armor. The armored cars can withstand ATR fire if they keep front facing. Close assault enemies only after they are suppressed.

The whole force is high firepower but has little "wind" (limited ammo, not a lot of infantry depth). But against an enemy with only infantry, or with vehicles limited to trucks and a few MG only armored cars, they can be effective.

1500 point panzergrenadier force, mech

Vet panzer grenadier company, 4 HMG type

Vet armored pz gdr platoon (1 37mm, 3 MG SPWs)

2 more Vet pz gdr platoon (6 all told)

2 SPW 251/9 (your "leIG"s are mounted)

2 SPW 251/2 (so are your 81mms)

105mm radio FO

Compared to the previous, you have about twice the infantry depth, but only half as many light armored vehicles.

The SPWs carry the HMGs, FO, and weapons and another HQ. 2 of those SPWs with 2 HMGs and an HQ aboard, which spots for a 251/2, plus a 251/9 for keyholed direct fire, form a heavy weapons grouping. One of them has a 37mm too and the other has the FO aboard.

Use one of the line platoon HQs as the second weapons group leader, not the company HQ. The company HQ is too valuable for that. Give it all of that platoon'squads and send it with the main body. Scout with a wave of half squads from two platoons, find a point you want to attack.

Position your heavy weapons to take down enemies located that way, one or two at a time, using the exact right weapon - mortar vs. gun, 75mm vs. MG in a house, FO vs. full platoon in woods, etc. HMGs keep suppressed anyone the heavy stuff hurts. They and the vehicle MGs also try to isolate each bit of cover with crossing LOS lines, preventing side to side repositioning.

When you've pried enough of a way forward, follow the scouts somewhere with the bulk of the remaining infantry, the company HQ in the middle of the force. Overwhelm whatever they hit. Bring up HMGs and 'tracks and use them to split off other areas of cover. Screen one way and throw your weight the other.

If you have combined arms rather than mech force type, you can use a similar force, but with 5 regular or 4 veteran platoons. Then add a StuG platoon (gamey effective), or a pair of Pz IVs (much more realistic), or a Tiger and a StuH. You don't need 251/9s, the tanks replace them as direct HE chuckers. You do still want 251/2s, or dismounted 81mm mortars.

But that is less armor than they really fought with. To get the right amount you really want an armored force type.

Infantry Forces

Combined Arms Attack or Meeting Engagement

3000 Point Infantry Forces

1943 Kursk era

StuG - PAK - Flak

Regular Jager Battalion

2 StuG III early-mid

1 StuH

2 105mm FO

3 81mm on map (plus the FO from battalion)

2 75mm PAK 40

2 Quad 20mm Flak

2 panzerschreck

1 kubelwagen (moves 2 75mm leIG from battalion

2 Sdkfz (move PAK and FLAK)

FW-190 air support

-or-

drop air support, increase on map 81s to 6, make the FLAK SP as 7/1 Flakwagens

-or-

no StuH, StuG platoon of 3 instead, add 3rd Schreck (anticipating more enemy armor).

Marders and HE

Jager battalion

4 Marder III early (platoon)

2 Grille (sIG 33 model, 50mm front)

+4 75mm leIG makes 6 all told

6 on map 81mm

2 105mm FOs

1 37mm FLAK, towed

1 Sdkfz

2 kubelwagens

StuG - PAK - Shreck (tank killing)

Jager Battalion

3 StuG early mid

3 75mm PAK

3 Panzerschreck

2 105mm FO

3 81mm on map

3 Sdkfz

Ju-87 tank buster air support

1 7/2 37mm Flakwagen

Vets and sIGs

Veteran infantry battalion (*not* Jager)

Vet StuG platoon

2 Vet sIG 150mm

6 Vet 81mm on map

3 Vet panzerschreck

2 Vet 105mm FO

1 Vet Flakwagen, 7/1 or 7/2

1 Vet Sdkfz to move sIGs

Kursk Special Assault Group (north, AG center)

Veteran infantry battalion

crack pioneer platoon

regular Brummbar

regular Elephant or 2 regular StuG III early-mid

2 105mm vet radio FOs + 3 vet 81mm on map -or-

1 150mm vet radio FO + 6 vet 81mm on map

Round out with schrecks etc.

In any event, 36 squads and 18 HMGs for the infantry part of the force, in many cases with 6-8 small pioneer teams added, FTs and schrecks etc.

A StuG or Marder platoon usually forms the basic armor support, with occasionally other HE chucker assault guns - and in the special case of Kursk, very thick ones. Vehicles are limited to prime movers and a few SP Flak vehicles. Towed guns can be awesome and the support category is typically maxed out. Supporting artillery is reasonably responsive and middling caliber, and is liberally supplemented by 81mm mortars.

1944

10 StuG IV

Infantry battalion

12 schreck

3 105mm FO

Or

9 StuG IV

VG Battalion

Security Company

6 Schreck

3 105mm FO

A full StuG company supporting a full infantry battalion or more. You will need decent artillery support and infantry AT to suppliment the firepower of the StuGs. Fix the enemy with one company supported by 2-3 StuGs and your limited heavy weapons, and then attack on a 2-3 platoon frontage in depth with the main body on the other wing. Fire the artillery, massed, ahead of the main attack. Do not try anything too fancy on the maneuver and exploitation side, as your infantry may not be robust enough under fire to manage it. Just execute a wing attack, meaning break the enemy's left or right half of the field, while merely screening the remainder in front.

2000 Point Infantry Forces

6 StuG III

3 StuH

3 VG Company

5 Schreck

2 105mm FO (or 120mm)

Again a company of armor but less capable types, and again with a full battalion's worth of infantry, and some sort of artillery support. The basic method of attack is as described earlier for infantry. Scout and fix with the VG rifles and one StuG platoon, fire the artillery ahead of the main attack, then hit them with everything else on a narrow front.

The basic pattern for the dug in ones would be a company of infantry plus HMG platoon, PAK, 105mm FOs, and field fortifications. They'd have trenches, AT mines, and wire. Then they'd get support from a small reserve. For the non-dug in ones, you'd have 2 companies and wouldn't have the fortifications, and the armor support forms might be marginally more likely.

As for the PAK portion, there were plenty of 50mm PAK still around, and even a fair number of 37mms at the time of Kursk. Understand that German IDs had their PAK in two distinct places - the divisional Panzerjaeger battalion, which had up to date pieces, and the PAK companies of each infantry regiment, which tended to get the cast offs and stuff a year old. Individual IDs also transitioned from old patterns to new at different times, and scraped by in the meantime with ad hoc methods. The variety is large and few conform complelely to any of the various TOEs.

In the fall of 1943, the ideal pattern was for the divisional Pz Jgrs to have 2 companies of PAK 40 each with 12 pieces, with the 3rd company equipped with light Flak. The regimental companies would have, typically, 9 50mm PAK each (using platoons of 3 rather than 4). (Sometimes the 1st platoon in each regiment's company had "French 75s", the Pak 97/38). Good IDs had that or some approximation to it.

Some though had older weapon mixes, and might have only a handful of PAK 40s, PAK 76 ®, and 97/38, sometimes only enough for one company of the Pz Jgr battalion to have such pieces. The rest of the Pz Jgrs had 50mm PAK, and there were still 37s in the regiments, only the first platoons having 50mm.

E.g. the weakest ID at Kursk had 7 PAK 40 and 3 PAK 97/38 ® in its entire Pz Jgr battalion (organized as lead batteries in each company), and 12 50mm PAK in the regiments (again 1st battery in each company), plus 27 of the old 37mms (12 in the regiments and 15 in the Pz Jgrs). It was simply still in the transition from old uniform 37s as in 1941.

By later in the fall, more of the divisions would have transitioned to 2 strong companies in the Pz Jgrs and 50mms in the regiments.

It was rare at this stage for the IDs to have Marders. That became much more common in 1944, with the 1st company of each divisional Pz Jgr battalion typically getting those, while the regimental companies transitioned to one battery of PAK 40s and loads of panzerschrecks for the remaining platoons. That kept the towed PAK about the same in each division, and dropped the 50s for schrecks. Sometimes you'd still see the 50s in the regimental companies, though, even late. In 1944, the best units had a StuG company in place of Marders, as the 1st company of the Pz Jgr regiment.

Mostly, IDs saw StuGs in the form of independent StuG brigades assigned to army or corps, and then run around from hot-spot to hot-spot as linebackers. A corps or division directly in the path of a major offensive might see a StuG brigade on day two.

On a fight of the scale you are talking about, that would translate to a single StuG, to one StuG platoon, and typically arriving as reinforcements after the attack was well underway, rather than in position at the start.

The few divisions that had organic Marders in their Pz Jgr battalions would do the same thing locally with their own, which would translate into pairs or platoons of those doing the same thing. Higher StuG support was somewhat more common, however. It just came later in the course on an offensive.

One other thing about front line guns and PAK schemes. The Germans were perfectly willing to incorporate their divisional artillery into their AT defenses, and particularly so in the IDs with weaker, older PAK. It was perfectly normal for a regimental KG to have a battalion of 105s permanently attached, and to form its strongpoints at the MLR or regimental reserve line, around either the whole thing or the separate batteries. In CM terms, sometimes the on map guns will be 4 105mm howitzers with 6-12 HC each, rather than heavy PAK.

There were also modest numbers of leIG and light Flak incorporated directly into the defensive strongpoints. The scarcer and much more valuable sIG would typically be firing indirect when on defense. (Sometimes those were replaced by 120mm mortars, anyway, or were simply missing altogether).

So some examples -

dug in

infantry company (regulars, standard grenadiers)

+4 HMG 42 (six all told)

2 MG log bunkers

1 schreck, 2 tank hunter

2 PAK 40

1 20mm Quad Flak

veteran or crack sharpshooter

1 105mm line FO

2-3 TRPs

8-12 trenches

6-10 AT mines

20-24 wire

plus reaction reserve -

veteran jager platoon with veteran schreck

veteran 105mm radio FO

a variant with weaker PAK but a StuG reinforcement would be -

1 76mm® capture Russian heavy PAK

2 50mm PAK

1 75mm le IG with 6-12 HC

add 1 veteran StuG III (middle) to reaction reserve.

For attack odds, the 2nd 105mm FO can be a line FO and start on the map, TRPs can go to 4, and a 4th infantry platoon can start on map, making the reserve a 5th.

Without fortifications, less prepared. These forces should still have some form of defensible terrain, not just open steppe. A village would be a common case. Woods or a rocky hill would also serve.

2 infantry companies

+4 HMGs makes 8 total

4 81mm on map

2 105mm FO (line)

2 schreck, 4 tank hunter

2 PAK 40

1 quad 20 AA or 2 20mm single or 1 le IG

Marder support variant, add 2 Marder III early as reinforcements. PAK might be 1 PAK 40 and 2 50mm PAK38.

Div arty variant. Drop 1 105mm FO, replace with 4 on map 105mm howitzer, each with 6-12 HC. PAK limited to 2 50mm PAK, no heavy. 3 schrecks and 5 THs.

The defense scheme is to emplace HMGs alone or in pairs, in natural or trench cover, with long LOS over open approaches. Spotters for 81mm on map and the 105mm FOs and TRPs are sighted at the bodies of cover between these open stretches. Together those provide a stealthy anti-infantry ranged fire defense extending out to 500 yards or more. The 81s also have the mission of KOing any enemy guns overwatching and firing direct etc.

The PAK are in cover or entrenched and cross their fire ahead of the MG positions. 50mms in particular need to go on the extreme flanks to ensure high crossing angle. 75 PAK can be more centrally located and farther to the rear.

Infantry platoon positions are interspersed with the HMG positions, but are in reserve slope or back positions when possible. They include schrecks and THs for anti-armor ambush, but their main role is to deny bodies of cover to the enemy infantry by their physical presence, and short range fire into the open immediately in front of them.

The reaction reserves are to shore up the weakest part of the line by just taking a defensive position behind anything broken and taken before they arrive. If the conditions are favorable, a 105mm strike is put down on the leading enemy body of cover, and the reserve platoon - perhaps with the nearest already present, perhaps not - rushes the place behind the barrage, as a local counterattack.

Reserve armor if available hunts enemy armor after it arrives, and plugs holes in the AT net created by loss of a heavy PAK.

When to unmask the heavy PAK is a key decision in this sort of defense. They start off on short vehicle arcs, biding their time. They need a very good target to reveal themselves. They do not open fire just because an enemy tank is firing at something. Infantry hit by tank fire has to solve the immediate problem itself by skulking to dead ground.

AT minefields, hiding tank hunters, and schrecks with limited ~150m LOS (to avoid enemy overwatch), try to whittle down the enemy tanks before the PAK show themselves. And to contain them if or when the PAK are lost.

The other key decision is when and where to use the artillery fire. It should not be wasted early at long range. Instead it should wait for the fattest targets of whole companies stuffed into limited bodies of cover, to shelter from MG fire and form up to assault a German infantry position, etc.

The squad infantry should be spending most of the time hiding, not firing. It opens only to KO infantry closely approaching their own positions. Once they beat the first such approach, they remain up and firing (but are expected to be shredded by enemy fire) or they relocate to an alternate firing position, by a covered rear exit.

A note on Marders for IDs and the reason for the 1944 date. Marders were around in 1942 and common in 1943. But they were valuable enough at those times they were mostly found in the mobile divisions, in their Panzerjaeger battalions. Typically 1st company in each. What changes in 1944 is the improved Pz Jgr vehicles appear, the Jadgpanzer in particular. StuGs also became much more numerous when the turreted Pz IIIs were discontinued in mid 1943, and those also replaced Marders in the Panzer divisions.

The cast off Marders were all given to the IDs, at that point. Later in mid 1944, the PDs pretty much all had Jadgs, and the IDs started to get StuGs in the first companies of their Pz Jgr battalions.

PD Pz Jgrs, ID Pz Jgr 1st companies, rest of ID Pz Jgrs, and ID regimental companies, in turn got the better weapons and handed the last variety on to the next. That is a pattern that left 50mm PAK in the hands of the regimental PAK companies toward the end of the war. Some still had them at the end. The other very late war development was from the other end - as schrecks and better fausts became available in large numbers, they equipped the 2nd and 3rd platoons of the regimental ID PAK companies. In the VG pattern IDs they replaced the towed PAK entirely at the regimental company level - those became pure infantry AT formations.

Avoid the "early mid" variety with 30+50 armor, because it is overmodeled and unrealistic. The "mid" variety with single 80mm is OK. (Still overmodeled, but as long as you don't use to many of them etc).

How to use the Panzer forces

They all have in common using armor in company or at least half-company strength. (Combat AARs often show half company armor forces, often due to depletion of the parent unit). Tank infantry teams in a ratio of 1-2 AFVs per infantry platoon as the core of the force. A focus on winning the armor war, and then having enough ordinary squad infantry depth to overpower limited portions of the enemy force. Narrow fronts for the attacks help bring that about at first. Armor war victory brings it about later on, as surviving uncontested AFVs prevent portions of the enemy force from maneuvering to aid each other. Artillery limited in amount, and what there is used in focused, large missions tied to the maneuver plan, not dissecting the enemy position with a scalpel. Reasonable artillery support when the infantry arm is expected to attack.

With much smaller forces, let alone the point limits of combined arms force types, you can't realistically fight the way the Germans attacked. You need an armor force type, or unrestricted, and a large enough fight for AFVs to be on the field in at last half-company strength. You will only see the sense of it at the right scale.

When only a few tanks are present, they do not dominate areas the way they can when massed. When you are down to one tank platoon, it can do so if you keep it united, but that devolves into a straight firepower attack by that platoon. That is too tactical for the maneuver aspect - by which I mean the ability to fight only parts of the enemy force due to local or global armor war victory - to show up.

Note that none of the above are meant to be gamey optima in CM. They are realistic and they can show why the methods worked. Players often throw in a grab bag of items, dissipate their points over a half dozen vehicle types, etc. Way too complicated and unnecessary. 1-2 AFV types will serve, but massed, and the squad infantry is more important (on the attack, mind) than the twiddles of this or that foot team or gun.

Did the Germans learn much between 1942/1944? It appears that they persisted with "schwerpunkt" tactics, incredibly effective against fragile opposition, but by mid 1942 or so it seems that the Allies had mostly learnt to deal with it. The Germans then just try to do the same with thicker armour & bigger guns...

They managed to get the initial break-in easily enough, even against later Allied defenses. The problems they encountered typically had to do with breakdown of combined arms when infantry got stripped off the tanks by artillery, or getting lost in a deep defended zone and hunted by reserves while buttoned, or having roads cut, mined, bridges blown, etc.

Sometimes they attack well prepared all arms defenses and just get their tanks shot out from under them. Thick front plates probably protected them from a lot of mistakes. Close terrain, poor visibility, etc, often evened the armor quality odds and then they generally did poorly when attacking.

But it is not like such techniques got them killed at the start line (at 17-pdr PAK fronts or otherwise - there weren't any, really). On the contrary, they virtually always made it through the front line. Just attacking on a narrow enough frontage with tactically serious amounts of armor can bring that much about. ATGs tend to be in penny packets, battery strength at most, all along the line, and are relatively easy to suppress or knock out.

Early in the war achieving an initial break-in was a more important thing to achieve, because the defenders against it mostly didn't know what to do about it. Early war Allied defenders did try armored counterattacks, but usually poorly coordinated ones with limited (if any) all-arms support.

German infantry coming through the breach in depth stopped those easily enough and turned a crack into a big tear. That didn't happen later on in many cases, because the Allies could "countermass" with artillery fire on the narrow breakthrough areas. Allied fire support and fire responsiveness increased drastically from early war to late. The German infantry could not shoulder through the holes to widen them. Once the tanks were stripped, they were hunted rather than hunters.

The only real counter to that the Germans had was scale, and operational surprise. If the attack was wide enough, the Allies couldn't mass fires everywhere to stop them. The Germans developed the idea that a whole panzer corps was the minimum force to launch a serious breakthrough fight, and two working together was considered much more sound.

They could also try to mass their own artillery beforehand and bring enough infantry depth to the attempt. They rarely were "rich" on the latter score after 1941, however, as the length of the front exploded and forces were needed to really hold them, not just screen them. If you look at early war operations, the infantry is in deep column behind the attack. In later war ones, everybody has frontage and too much of it.

Peiper and the attempt to take Bastogne both failed primarily due to not enough infantry with the lead units. By the end Peiper faced 10 to 1 infantry odds. In the attack on Bastogne by an entire corps, the guys inside the perimeter had as many infantry battalions as the attackers, and they were fresher. The break ins were one thing and there the doctrine worked well. Making something of, and sustaining a penetration was a taller order, and needed overall odds.

How to use the infantry forces

As for how you use them, I suppose the German infantry fighting system may not be self explanatory.

First, form heavy weapons groups alongside infantry platoons, each built around a few HMGs and an HQ, with some other weapon added - an 81mm on map, an FO, a towed gun, whatever. Group together pairs of each around a higher level HQ, to give tasking flexibility etc.

Regular infantry scouts routes for the heavy weapons groups, who "own" cover with LOS and extend a network of LOS lines outward to medium range.

First job is scouts out to find the enemy and especially his armor. All regular platoons, with the rest of their groups trailing. Just eyes forward and taking possession of bits of cover, is the idea, no serious fighting against anything more than enemy scouts etc.

As the enemy is found the leading regular infantry goes stationary, holds off men crossing open, only, otherwise skulks away from anything with real firepower. Weapons groups close up, set up. They want their LOS lines to cut the terrain side to side and slice off forward bits with crossing LOS lines behind them etc. Just restrict easy enemy movement and hold the stuff you reached, against open ground crossings.

Now draw trump - in other words, win the armor war. Your armor, PAK, and schrecks have all been hanging back so far. You've seen enemy armor here or there. Now you hunt it. You have weapons that will kill anything they can see. See, kill, repeat. When the enemy armor is dead or contained, proceed to the next phase, but not before.

Next phase is to probe the foremost, cut off bits of cover, with a few scouts. If there are real enemies there, you then bring up the appropriate heavy tool and murder them. While HMGs cut the lines of retreat etc. Regular platoons follow up into already beaten opponents, they do not need to KO them alone. Don't fight the whole enemy force, fight the pieces of it that seem most vulnerable, hardest to support or to withdraw, etc.

The special heavier weapons all work by keyholing, to avoid reply fire. In the case of the 81s on map and the 105 FOs, obviously indirect does the same job. With the thick front armor, similarly - with sides covered by terrain etc, and no advancing farther than needed to get LOS. If they aren't well within your own infantry positions you are doing it wrong.

No Russian vehicles can stand under long 75mm fire, or schreck fire even. No Russian infantry can make serious progress across open areas that numerous HMG42s are interdicting. No Russian infantry can survive in woods plastered by 105mm indirect or buildings plastered by 75mm direct, or anything plastered by 150mm anything. No Russian guns can survive long under 81mm mortar fire, to which they cannot reply.

In the infantry firefight, the gun line is 150-250 meters from the enemy and the heavy lifting is done by all the HMGs and on map guns. Infantry can help in occasional "mad minutes", firing by whole platoons to break single enemies. Then they advance. When fire stops them, do not press, do not race, just call fire on the shooters and repeat.

Plenty varies with era, attacking or defending, mission and terrain. And there are all sorts of purely optional variants in terms of what guns to take and other forms of support. But here is some for the Kursk era, ID parent combined arms, attacking or ME portion of the question -

I hope this helps.

[Der Alte Fritz]

So here you have a post for the Russians and one for the Germans, both a compilation of several posts by various authors - not my work but real grogs. Hope it is useful.

cheers

[Paulverisor64]

I appreciate the help you have given me.

Jason: Thank you for explaining some of the Rock, Paper and Scissors of this game. This will help me a lot in determining how to set up properly. I also appreciate your clarification of how different levels of HQ's work in this game. One question in this regard; is it a safe assessment to say that only units which connect the various HQ's with red lines are under that HQ's control? another question I have is; can a unit be re-attached to a different HQ due to logistical problems? (severing ties to the original HQ).

I have played a couple of your Russian Tutorials. I am taking my time to try to grasp things better. On the 2nd tutorial I believe one of the lessons is in how to gather intel and scouting information from the infantry units attached to the tanks. What is the proper way of getting this information. Do the infantry units stay on the tanks? There doesn't appear a way to get the infantry into a true scouting position without delaying the 3 tanks movement, and moving the infantry to the building by the flag, or the small patch of forest. The way I've played this is to split the 3 tanks up into Left, Center and Right with the infantry onboard. The tank to the right gets into the fight 1st. This shakes up the infantry which is tagging along. The center tank loses it's rider in the clump of forest. The left tank later loses it's unit as I have him take over the building near the flag. This appears to "work" every time, but I can't help but believe there must be a more purposeful and effective way of doing this. How do I set up or how can I tell the units are set up in position for spotting?

Der Alte Fritz: Thank you very much for the resources of how each side typically would set up for battle. I can see that there is so much to be learned. One thing I have noticed is the mention of setting up forces using a specific amount of point values. I haven't run into anything like this before; would this be a prerequisite for setting up in the game scenarios that list a specific value of points, or is this specific to a game generating editor? There is a lot of emphasis on how to build combined arm forces with these available points. There is a lot of good information on how each side would historically set up to get the best advantage.

I have a couple more questions that I'm hoping someone might be able to help me with.

1) I know that Jason gave some examples of the range certain units are better engaging, but is there any information which you can determine the most effective range of battle engagement for each unit?

2) This is a really simple question. I know the book gives a description of how you read the armor from the picture of the armored unit. However I am confused at what each colored band refers to. Looking at the picture of the tank how would you read the Armor effectiveness? Obviously the front 3 bands would refer to the front. Does this go Front Right, Front Middle, and Front Left? (and not high to low) Do the upper bands refer to the upper turret armor? Do the lower bands refer to the area encompassing the tracks on each side? Do the rear 3 bands refer to Rear Right, Rear Middle, and Rear Left?

Thank you so much for your valuable information!

[umlaut]

Hi

I´m pretty sure that the colored bands are supposed to represent this (at least this is what I´ve always assumed):

Front:

Upper band: Front turret

Middle band: Front upper hull

Lower band: Front lower hull

Side:

Upper band: Side turret

Middle band: Side upper hull

Lower band: Side lower hull

Rear:

Upper band: Rear turret

Middle band: Rear upper hull

Lower band: Rear lower hull

Cheers

[dieseltaylor]

The top and bottom bands are resistance to mines and top hits I believe. You will note tanks with open tops are a little bereft in the colour band department. The colour also is a function not only of thickness but the slope of the armour. I think also the breaks in the verticals are also an indication of what percentage of the tank is covered by that sort of armour. This is moot as I have no idea whether the concept is actually coded into the game.

I think the double bottom band might also relate to ease of track hits causing damage - but I am guessing.

I have never used them probably because:

a] I know most tanks etc but if it were new I would look it up to see what its real life armour was like and the angle it was sloped at

b] the colour surely must be relative to something - but as I do not know what it is a little daft. Is the colour relative to the commonest enemy gun of the time - 2pdr in 1941, 75mm in 1943 or what?

c] There is no point in getting precious about where a shell will hit your tank - there is very little you can do about it anyway. And given terrain elevation also delivers the complications of rising and falling shot why worry - spend your energy on thinking of the things you can affect.

Therefore I learn what tanks are dangerous to my tanks - and vice versa. Its really not very difficult.

You can see longer calibre and bigger bore make better killing machines and this happens throughout the war. The Panther L/70* being I think the longest barrel to create the highest possible velocity. So that is 70 times 7.5cm equivalent very roughly to 5.25metres of barrel.

*There are two possible couple of exceptions but I cannot be bothered to check : )

Of course when you have learned that bit of knowledge I should mention HC ammunition which meant even low velocity guns like L/17's could actually still hurt tanks. Here again its a matter of learning which tanks can have it, when it comes in, and whether the units get allocated much of it. Ammo load outs for tanks and guns can vary widely even within the same platoon or battery.

Lucky you - a whole raft of things to learn and enjoy : )

[JasonC]

On HQs, yes a red command line means that HQ is currently commanding that unit, and it is in command. Black lines will be drawn to the original platoon HQ of a squad if it is out of command. HQs are reassigned for "logistic" reasons, whatever that means. Just distance and HQ state. A red morale HQ (panicked or worse) can't command anyone until it rallies to at worst "pinned" morale state. Other than that, the closest HQ that can legally command the unit, will get command of it, if more than one is in range. (Minor variation on the "closest" part for lack of LOS or very different command rating bonuses - that is the "star" or "boxed star" on the HQ unit).

On scouting for tanks with infantry, dismount the men and have them go first. You can split them into half squads, as well, and then send forward just 3 tommy-gunners. The idea is to risk as little as possible. You don't care if they are vulnerable, because it is just 3 grunts, and who cares what happens to them? I exaggerate slightly for purposes of clarity.

Sure the tanks are faster, but a dead tank is a much bigger deal than a pinned 3-man half squad. You don't want to find the enemy by first having a hole drilled through the turret front of a T-34. It isn't a footrace, there are no points for winning sooner. If it keeps a T-34 alive, what do you care if something takes 2-3 minutes longer?

Once you know where the enemy is, send the T-34s ahead on "fast" to get line of sight to him, preferably from a direction he isn't facing. If he is busy bothering the grunts, so much the better. He won't be looking your way. Distract him with irrelevant minutae then take his head off with the real deal.

This becomes much more important in the 3rd test, where you face a superior enemy AFV, one that can kill you easily with a single shot, while your own will bounce from his front plate. You need a side shot to kill that one, and you can't afford to find out where his side is by paying a dead T-34 every minute.

As for where to send the infantry scouts, nothing wrong with straight over the hill. Use "move to contact" to halt as soon as you have line of sight.

Another key in those fights is to exploit the shadow behind the little house on the hill. Buildings aren't just cover in one spot, they are also long "pencils" of cover behind that spot, relative to a single enemy. Using the curve of the hill to make dead ground is, of course, also a theme.

Cover for tanks tends to be complete LOS blockage by ground or obstacles, that you can change quickly by a short movement forward or back ("cresting" a hill), or peeking out to one side of an obstacle.

A warning on the first of the second set - some find it hard. If you don't get it in a couple of tries, just advance to the next one and you should find it easier with more to work with. Or, if you like, edit the scenario to make the platoon regular quality and give the HQ a +1 morale bonus - then it should be easy.

As for point totals, the "quick battle" feature lets you design your force within a limited "point" budget. It is quite popular and many people enjoy playing head to head games with only the quick-battle size and setting specified beforehand. It is also a fine training tool to play those against the AI, letting it select the computer forces so you have no idea what you are up against, beyond the overall enemy force size, but can pick your own force. Eventually you will get good enough you win those easily and they get a bit boring. But by then you will be dangerous to other humans.

[Paulverisor64]

It appears that there can be different interpretations of the armor diagram for armored vehicles. As suggested above this really doesn't come into play a whole lot in the game. The strongest armor obviously is in front so that is what you would want facing the enemy.

Today I am playing tutorial 102. As you suggested Jason I seperated my troops from their armored rides.

In my 1st try I moved all 3 tanks forward. The tank on the left by the trees I started on turn 1, the others on turn 2. Several turns later all 3 tanks were a trash heap.

I still thought I could sneak a tank through on the far left (thinking it wouldn't be seen). In same fashion I moved the middle tank to the trees and the right tank to the edge. Again a disaster.

The 3rd try I took the far left tank and thought I'd find cover in a depression. My infantry advanced to the center trees and a split squad towards the right edge. Within 3 turns my left tank was knocked out from long distance. I was glad to get some shots in with the other 2 tanks but nothing penetrated the tank. I was quite happy with the results of doing a Shoot and Scoot with the tank on the far right, taking advantage of a steppe between tanks. My center tank used cover from the small forest. There were several turns of cat and mouse, and in that time the main force of my infantry found cover behind the building by the flag as you suggested. I got a draw this time around. I however am very happy with the fact that I didn't lose all my tanks and I was able to advance my troops quite well.

From what I see, I might be able to pull off a victory if I can hold backall of my own tanks and stage some diversions to get the Axis tank turned in the direction I want it to be. Then I can A) Get in some Shoot and Scoots or Advance my far left tank.

I'm having fun seeing how changing up ways of doing things can yield better results. I'm also starting to see the terrain better.

[JasonC]

Scout with the tommy gunners first, using move to contact - that is what they are for. All T-34s stay well back in full defilade (completely out of sight behind the hill) until you see the beastie.

Once you do see the beastie, find the shadow of the house by moving a half squad or two to a position that can't see the beastie. Then advance toward the house within that shadow.

Send a T-34 on "fast" to the shadow, then up along it.

The other T-34s are separated as widely as possible, and want to close on "fast" when the beastie is not facing their side of the board. And when I say "close", I mean hell for leather drive all the way across the map and right *behind* the sucker at 50 meters range! Make the bastard *turn*.

He might get the first, but he will not get the second. The farther forward the first gets on its side, the more turned-away he will be when the second comes a-calling.

The T-34 by the house is backup. He can "shoot and scoot" if and only if the beastie is so turned sideways tracking one of the others, you know you have a shot at his side. Otherwise, send him third, if the second doesn't get him.

See the idea? Sure his gun is a killer, and his front plate is too thick for you to get through. But he *has no turret*, and he only faces *one direction at a time*. So *make him turn*. The closer you are, the more degrees of arc he needs to turn to track you...

[dieseltaylor]

The joy of CM is that in real games against humans you will have to consider whether there is an ATG ready for your cunning ruse. It is the uncertainty that makes CM so good.

[JasonC]

Do not pay the slightest attention to the flippant interruption. Learn how 2 T-34s kill 1 StuG. It will stand you in *very* good stead in all your subsequent CM fights.

[Paulverisor64]

Jason: I have tried leading with infantry and completely concealing my armor. In concept I believe I achieved what I was after, in execution I failed.

I split the squads accross a broad front using the move to contact command. It was very interesting where the squads ended up (the LOS was quite staggered accross the map). In the middle of the map one of my split squads drew the Axis armor forward and broadside.

I knew this must be my golden opportunity so I threw the 2 tanks on the ends accross the map in a Fast Move. I held my center tank back because I determined that I did not want it to be the focus of the Axis armor. My far right tank got off several shots. My far left tank was also letting loose, until the Axis tank lined up a knock out punch. The turn ended with the Axis tank already starting to rotate to face it's next target.

In desperation I threw the center tank up the center of the map. Very shortly thereafter my far right tank became crippled with an easily placed shot. The beginning of the next turn ended the life of my last tank.

I actually did better when I played an entire round of cat and mouse, but I still haven't knocked out the superior Axis tank. I could play this round over and over and get a draw by not being aggresive with the armor but I would never get a win.

What I was not able to execute was getting my tanks at point blank range. My armor spacing is quite wide to begin the game. The center tank is near the small forest close to the spawn zone. I did have a slight delay in the fast move with the 1st phase of the movement used to rotate a couple of the tanks to line up with the direction I was sending them.

I'm not really sure I am succeeding with setting the one tank up with the shadow of the building. What I am assuming here is that you are talking about the protection of the building and not a literal shadow. I was able to get this tank deeper than I have been in past rounds. I actually took the tank to the left of the building to try flanking the Axis tank.

Perhaps I'm not too far from achieving success. I do agree that knowing how to pull off tactics such as this will be quite valuable in playing against a superior strength opponent. Thanks for helping me along, I hope to master the concept in this battle soon.

[JasonC]

Rotating and command delays while already in sight will destroy you completely, you cannot tolerate them in the slightest.

The tanks not only need to start out wide, they need to steer for edges that keep the angle described by their lines of sight to the StuG as large as possible.

Give them the entire move, already plotted, all waypoints, so that once command delay hits zero they simple go the entire distance without pauses of any kind.

Shallow turns at speed execute very quickly. Large angle changes, especially when stopped e.g. at the start of a move, are instead quite slow.

You are very unlikely to hit him while fast moving, and at range. The chance per shot is only a few percent. It jumps 5-10 fold if you halt. But only use that if you know you have side shots throughout the turn. You can also hit him even while moving once the range falls to about 100 meters.

Also, if you pass him "close aboard", the angle he must turn through to track you will soar. You can halt behind him, your turret will stay trained, and hit him before he does so. He will also be backwards to all your remaining tanks, which can scoot into the open and halt at that point.

But if you do not get one tank around him, your chances are poor.

If the range is still 800 meters, he doesn't have to turn that far to switch from one target to the next, and you have a long way to go. Not the idea.

You need to get better at reading the height of the terrain to see where you can safely move. Sure the scouting wave helps with that, but its main purpose is to see the *direction he is facing*.

You must start your run from the *other* side of the map.

You can delay a movement order already given by padding with pauses (hit the p key to add 10 seconds of delay per keypress), to time when you move out.

You can "advance" with infantry on the side of the map he *is* facing, to distract him as much as possible.

It isn't trivial, but it is entirely possible, and once you "get it", you won't forget how. It is a very valuable skill to have.

[Paulverisor64]

Getting closer:

Knowing approximately how far I could move my tanks without being spotted I moved them up. I moved my infantry up on a broad front using Contact. At the point of Contact I Advanced my troops in a direction to draw fire. My initial attack would be my right tank which I had on Move Fast. I picked a line which the Axis tank was moving centered with the building by the flag and used Move Fast to approach the building. The last tank I attempted to move left of the building to give 2 spread out targets for the Axis tank.

I got several shots off with my tank on the right side, but the German tank revolved to remove it before I got very far.

I have no clue what happened to the tank which was supposed to stretch the field to the other side, perhaps the infantry anti tank gun took it out but I was surprised to see that it was immobile. My last tank actually made it all the way to the building without being sighted. It took out one of the infantry units which was surprised around the building.

I never lost my last tank. I was actually flanking the Axis tank as time ran out.

I've learned one more trick, and that is that buildings can be great for cover. I also took advantage of adding several waypoints for the tanks, which worked out well. I haven't done multiple waypoints because I thought it would add a command delay for each point. It appears this only applies for infantry units.

You mentioned above that the infantry was sent out to see the direction the tank was facing. There actually is a forward unit which I've never moved which is hidden and I can see the direction the tank is facing on the 1st move.

Still trying

[Paulverisor64]

Finally!!!

I used my infantry to draw fire as in previous trys. When the Axis tank locked on I took 2 of the T34s down the shadow line of the building by the flag.

My tank to the right did a shoot and scoot which got the German tank's attention.

As soon as the German tank rotated to take the far tank out I set one tank to go around the left building and one to the right. The tank to the right made a sacrifice for the country but that was my only loss.

I got to the Axis tank's back side and took him out with 2 shots. With this accomplished I routed the small force that was remaining.

This was a great lesson, and a morale builder!

[JasonC]

Well done.

On the second trial, your immobilized T-34 wasn't taken out by an anti-tank gun, the Germans don't have one. It undoubtedly just bogged. Unlucky, but it can happen. Especially if the ground is wet or the terrain is soft ground or wheat, but even just in open ground. Roads are about the only place bogs aren't a problem. But you can't plan for it, just have to live with the occasional "thrown track".