Air Support UI Request

[Wildman]

Yes, the type of bomb is important. But not really which airplane dropped it as long as it hits where its supposed to.

Kind of like some of the issues with Arty, I'd like to see the ability to drop bombs out of LOS...but that could get real unbalancing and "gamey" pretty easy. Personnally I'd like to see a "weapons free" area (where you want the airplane to search for targets) to define...or a "weapons safe" (where you are).

To do it right would require some micromanaging...its not that BFC can't do it...but how feasible it is and where it is on "the List".

[jenrick]

Hmm all right lets get really out there then. Ditch the whole select your CAS platform and pick and ordinance type. We've already hashed out that there's a lot of work to be done to get that working anyway near usuable.

Instead abstract it by weapon type. Instead of an A-10, have an Maverick fire support asset. Instead of an F-15E have a Bomb (of some type) fire support asset. Interface is the same as artillery, except you don't have to choose light-heavy. Simply either select point or area, length (amount of munitions expended) and instead of the artillery short-max go with 1/4-All in 1/4 increments. From their confirm and wait.

I think the biggest frustration players have right now is that you be trying to kill tanks in the open and instead get a strafing run or a 500lb iron bomb instead of an ATGM, and vice-a-versa. This completely eliminates that issue, and basically the player can fill it in however they want how it works. Want a fully loaded A-10 with/ Mavericks? That's 1 maverick asset with 8 ammo and 1 GAU-8 asset with full ammo. Sure something like an F-15E is a little more complicated to simulate as there are lots of choices, but that's where research comes in.

Shoot have the editor have pre-planned packages just there are other formations. Instead of having to assemble and infantry battalion you just pickone, same for your support munitions. Have ammo stack, instead of 2 4 missile maverick assets have them combine into 1 8 missile asset. Keeps the clutter down, and to anyone other then the JTAC who cares what birds there, just that you've got 8 mavericks to kill tanks with. Maybe you've got 2 fully loaded B-2's for 160 Mk82 500lbs. Maybe you've got an squadron of Harries instead carrying Mk82's for the same number of bombs. Unless the games going to start tracking the planes full, it's really the same.

Is it realistic that a JTAC is saying, I need a maverick fire mission on those tanks over there? Not entirely, but that's what the overall intent of calling in WILDCAT04 on enemy armor in the open is. The JTAC knows WILDCAT04 has a bunch of ATGM's onboard, and that the pilot is going to use them to kill those tanks. So just having the player explicitly go with an ordinance type is the same thing. Give me a bunch of mavericks on that armor!

Oh and I'll say it again here. AC-130's. A 25mm Cannon asset w/ full ammo, a 40mm cannon asset w/ full ammo, and a 105 mm asset with full ammo under my proposal.

-Jenrick

[akd]

Bumping this thread as I still have no idea what the various loadouts are, and which weapons in the loadout correspond to the mission type request. Could we at least have a chart in the documentation to use as a reference when using the editor?

[rune]

Wildman forgot one in his list of delivery systems, that of the tv-guided or optically guided bomb, something like the gbu-15, or from my day, the walleye [out of service]

Rune

[BlAin]

But personally, and I am not saying this because I disregard air assets' ammo information which should be available to the ground team, but I think there is something flawed with how time (which is a very important factor nonetheless) and the pilot's decisional input are rendered in the game... Let me explain.

Everytime that I order an air strike, that it be from attack choppers, A-10A or F-15E, it takes in general 8 to 10 minutes for them to begin their attack phase. That it be urgent or not, needing a heavy or a light barrage, or against armor or soft targets. A battle can drastically change in a matter of 8 or 10 minutes! However, once they're done engaging, if you ask for their support again, it takes another 8 minutes to prepare another attack... give me a break, they are supposed to be around anyway! So you cannot keep the pilot posted on the evolution of the battlefield situation in regards to its designated targets at any point during their attack. Also, since the A-10A mostly relies on visual targeting from the pilot, it should always be at the pilot's discretion anyway.

Personally, what we would need to know is from where the attack will be coming (in regards to the target), the altitude level of the attack (which would provide an incentive on what type of weapons would be used or not), the aircraft availability (1 pass, 2 or 3 passes), and if area target order, the weapons' choice at the pilot's discretion (only if it was possible to report the location of targets within the area/and depending of the type of aircraft).

Again, an real life example is with what I trust the most and what is the most cost-effective: a Gatling-cannon attack on armors (which is the most potent in my view) or a hydra-rockets attack which is far less precise (and at the same time lethal) than aimed cannon rounds.

Anyhow, this should be sorted out... depending of the type of air asset attacking and the battlefield information what we [should] continuously send to that asset. Since the latter is omitted, we have a more complex issue in our hands. This could be seriously simplified would the ground team was able to update attacking air assets with information as it comes.

[Wildman]

Problem is that it isn't "updated" constantly during an attack. The JTAC passes a 9-line for ONE target, which can be used again for a restrike.

For example (from real life, some of the details omitted).

A fire team with JTAC has been going house to house...its about time to egress and they call up the F-15E and say "I think they are going to hit us from that compound up there as we leave."

F-15 pilot: "No way, we've been buzzing the town for an hour now, their not that stupid"

JTAC: "I'll pass you a 9-line anyway, just in case"

F-15: takes the 9-line and sure as shiite, a couple of mortar teams run out from the compound and start setting up and firing..

JTAC: Orders the 9-line is a go

F-15: Orbit out to about 10 miles and start ingress...Drop several bombs...no more bad guys.

Bottom line, is even with a confirmed 9-line is still took 5-7 minute to put bombs on target. Now imagine trying to get the 9-line, confirm your looking at the right target in the pod and then starting your run to the IP and then the inbound attack run

I do wish that teh Air Crews in CMSF modelled the pod better, and tracked targets movement as they approach and automatically adjust for the targets movement, but given the classification of some of that, its not surprising that this is on area that BFC is guessing on.

5-7 minutes is pretty average from a cold start of the 9-line to bombs on target...remember aircraft just dont attack from any old direction, its always on a very specific inbound radial to minimize the chance of misguide and killing your own guys.

Rune,

Your right about the GBU-15, but its dropped so rarely and its mostly used to hit targets or SEAD assets while staying out of SAM range, its not a tactical weapons..at least very often.

Now all this being said...I too wish I could pick the weapon to be delivered as I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that the JTAC calls for a particular weapon right now, and the pilot will comply unless he doesn't have it aboard.

[Stingray]

YES ! YES ! YES ! on all of the above suggestions.

[Apocal]

Now all this being said...I too wish I could pick the weapon to be delivered as I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that the JTAC calls for a particular weapon right now, and the pilot will comply unless he doesn't have it aboard.

I think the way BFC sees it is, "Would a company or battalion commander be concerned about specific ordnance?"

[c3k]

Gents,

Thanks for resurrecting this.

Apocal - please read the entire thread. There is nothing here (that I have posted) that puts the company or battalion commander in the position of loading ordnance on aircraft.

Right now the game assumes certain specific loadouts. It uses those loadouts in a manner which is fully opaque to the player. In a battle YES the company commander would know (through the JTAC) what kind of ordnance would be coming his way.

All this thread is trying to do, is bring to BF.C's (and others) attention that a change to the GRAPHIC INTERFACE would do wonders for clarifying the air-to-ground aspect of this game. No changes in loads, no changes in interactions (unless you want to add the run-in axis as an option which would be JUST LIKE a linear artillery request), but, a simple change in the pictures on the user interface.

Regards,

Ken

[SlowMotion]

But personally, and I am not saying this because I disregard air assets' ammo information which should be available to the ground team, but I think there is something flawed with how time (which is a very important factor nonetheless) and the pilot's decisional input are rendered in the game... Let me explain.

Everytime that I order an air strike, that it be from attack choppers, A-10A or F-15E, it takes in general 8 to 10 minutes for them to begin their attack phase. That it be urgent or not, needing a heavy or a light barrage, or against armor or soft targets. A battle can drastically change in a matter of 8 or 10 minutes! However, once they're done engaging, if you ask for their support again, it takes another 8 minutes to prepare another attack... give me a break, they are supposed to be around anyway!

I've thought about this same thing after reading how Apaches have been used in Afganistan. Apaches were often supporting infantry by flying over some area. When FOs requested fire to some target, attack could take place after a short delay if the target was well known already. Of course no accurate timings were mentioned, but I got the idea that they were able to attack much faster than after 8 minutes.

Another thing I miss is that flying time is limited. I think it would be a nice addition if scenario makers could define not only when some air support becomes available, but ALSO how long it will be available. So for example some helos might be available for 30 minutes. After that they'd have to leave the area because of lack of fuel.