Rail Guns on the Western Front, '44-'45

[Bannon DC]

Recently finished reading "Company Commander" by Charles MacDonald. Classic read, highly recommend if you have not read it yet. I followed along using Google Maps to see the terrain. Amazing to see that some of these places he mentions are still today tiny villages with about 10 houses. I imagine that the terrain is still very much the same considering how well managed the land is in this part of Europe.

When he joins up with his first company in early October, 1944 he is situated in a bunker in the Siegfried line near the town of Uttfeld. Looking at a map this is near the northern tip of Luxembourg just a few miles inside Germany.

I found it interesting that he mentions getting shelled by a rail gun. He mentions that division intelligence believed it was a rail gun. I was wondering if anyone knows if rail guns were in use on the Western Front in 1944-45 and where they were used.

Thanks

[dieseltaylor]

Interesting point. One would assume only shelled at night. Air power and a very large target would suggest a short life for the gunners otherwise.!

Anzio Leopold : )

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gaz/k5.html

[Kingfish]

http://www.aopt91.dsl.pipex.com/railgun/Content/Railwayguns/German/German_guns.html

You can disregard the big bitch at the bottom. She shot her wad at Sevastopol.

My guess would be a K5.

[JasonC]

For details on railgun usage, see -

http://www.one35th.com/model/k5/k5_hist03.htm

FWIW...

[John Kettler]

Bannon DC,

Absolutely, and in some ways you might not expect. Antwerp was, ISTR, bombarded by a scaled down flatcar mounted version of the V3 Hochdruckpumpe (High Pressure Pump = 15 cm gun sequentially fired using multiple chambers to obtain enormous ranges; original application was to be cross-Channel bombardment of London), using the Peenemuender Pfeilgeschoss (Peenemuende Arrow Shot, basically an AFFSDS type streamlined subcaliber saboted dart) for maximum standoff range. See particularly WEAPONS OF THE THIRD REICH (a magnificent book) by Gander and Chamberlain, pp. 231-237 for an excellent discussion of the various German RR gun types. Hogg's THE GUNS: 1939-45 has a pretty good overview of the German RR guns on pages 120-130.

As for combat use, it would help greatly to know which higher German Army HQ or similar had such assets in the area your writer mentions. From this, we might be able to figure out what fired on him. I suspect we'd learn a lot if we got a look at the crater and fragment analyses made after whatever fired actually landed steel at the other end. I would expect divisional intelligence would've reported this and done some on the spot investigation, so there should be something in the official documentation for the period.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

John - it is all on the page I posted the link for. They are K5s.

The limit on use of K5s was shells not tubes. Total rounds in existence for them rarely exceed 100 per gun. There was some small scale use of them in seige fights in Russia, Sevastapol and Leningrad e.g., but only two areas and periods of large scale use thereafter. Those were guns on the English channel used as coastal defense weapons and to harass English ports and shipping, and the barrage at Anzio. While the former involved only a half a dozen guns at a time and the latter all of 2, each use consumed up to a third of all available ammunition for the entire K5 gun park.

There was really no point in the things anywhere the Germans had any planes in the air. 500 lb shells that are half to a quarter as much HE as air dropped bombs are extremely inefficient compared to air dropped bombs. If you could deliver many more on a sustained basis it might be useful, but the Germans couldn't make the shells, and it was far too inefficient a use of resources to try. For everything that needed that size munition and range, a plane was superior, and for every battlefield use, a 150mm howitzer was.

[Stalins Organ]

There's a Squadron/Signal book on German rail guns, from which I gathered the following data a couple of years ago (all references to "pictured or similar) are to the book. Note that it says a couple of K5's were used against the US 1st army at the end of the war. I got he info via google books but don't see it anymore.

“Gneisenau” battery 15cm SK L/40 guns. At least 4 guns saw action in France 1944.

This battery was unique as the only one belonging to the Kriegsmarine.

17cm Batteries 717, 718 3 guns each. Pictured in France 1942

20.3cm L/60 8 guns constructed from spares of Heavy Cruisers. 6 of these captured in France 1944.

21cm K12 (E) L/196 1 gun comprised E-Batterie 701. Also velocity measuring troop (mot) 607. Only 2 guns built, emplaced on French coast by end 1940 to shell Dover and Folkestone. Also pictured 1944 in the west. (no further detail of location)

24cm L/35 “Bruno” guns. 3 guns pictured at Luttich rail yards in the west. (no other detail)

28cm L/40 “Kurze Bruno”. 8 Guns completed, 4 batteries 690, 694, 695, 696 each with 2 guns later joined by E-battery 721 equipped with 2 captured guns. 2 are pictured emplaced on the Belgian coast.

28cm L/42 “Schwere Bruno” 2 guns E-battery 689 with velocity measuring troop 613.

28cm “Lange Bruno” 3 guns built. No details.

28cm L/58 “Neue Bruno” 3 guns built.

K5(E) 28cm L/76. 25 built “Anzio Annie” most famous.

Gun train for this weapon consisted of: loco, 28cm gun, ammo car, diesel shunter, 2 shell cars (113 rounds each), 2 propellant cars, equipment car with tools, armoured railroad car for crew defense, kitchen car, fire control car, flat car with 20mm Flak 38, 3 buses. Also turntable train consisted of: loco, several cars for the dismantled “Vogele” turntable, car carrying 16 sections of curved track, rail and jack fittings car, 3 ammo cars, supply and tool car, flak car, 9 flat cars for buses and other vehicles.

Among units outside Leningrad pictured 9 Oct 1943: E battery 712 with Vel. Meas. Troop 697, E battery 713, with vmt 617 and 765.

2 of these guns were used against US 1st Army at closing stage of the war.

80cm L/40.6 “Dora” Nuff saidJ

Captured French Guns

2 x 30.5cm M93/06 pictured in France 1940

32cm(f) M74 and 32cm Schneider. Approx 20 French guns used by Germans, mostly in France from 1942

37cm (f) M15. 2 guns battery 711. 1 gun pictured Jan 1945 near Weichel in action vs Russians.

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Cool site! What a grog! Was unaware of any K5E ammo shortages prior to reading about them here. OTOH, it was precisely the same sort of planning approach that saw both sides practically run out of artillery ammo during WW I. Guess the Germans never anticipated really pumping rounds downrange on the scale used at Anzio.

People,

Missed my typo. That was supposed to read APFSDS, rather than as appeared, and refers to the similarities in design (saboted fin-stabilized dart, albeit quite large).

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bannon DC]

Thanks for the replies.

Came across another reference to the Germans using railguns during operation "Veritable" in Feb. 1945. Just mentions a few rounds fired.

There probably was a point to building these monsters when facing the Maginot Line and other such fortifications that were popular during the intra-war period. At least in the early war, the Germans had no problem supplying these weapons with ammo. They fired about 10,000 rounds of artillery above 240mm during the Sevastopol siege and chipped away at the defenses effectively. Dora fired 48 rounds and ran out of ammo; results appear to be somewhat disappointing but probably was a moral boost to the Germans and a sap to the Russians. Still, that is an incredible logistics effort to move 40,000 tons of ammo not to mention the guns themselves and all the support equipment.

Dive bombing was certainly effective but still a direct hit from an armor (or concrete) piercing round was far more effective. If you could score a direct hit.

But as for the use of rail guns late in the war, I have not seen much mentioned. Appears to be a couple of rounds here and there.

Bannon