The China war 1936?

[CSS]

Hubert is the going to be a Chinese campaign? or a 1936 start campaign? Japan was seriously involved in the mainland in the 5 years previously to Dec 1941, and the politics of the era were at the least amazing.

So would this have to be a Mod?

[Hubert Cater]

Not in the official release although I wouldn't exclude any Chinese specific campaigns as Bill has definitely been itching to work on a few especially after he got a look at the new Chinese Infantry units last week

I can't say for sure but if a Chinese campaign does not make the cut for the initial release it is highly likely you will see something added in as an official mod or as part of a patch release as needed etc.

[Kuniworth]

I said it before, Bill Runacre(alias Bill101) is a very good scenario maker. He made the Poland-scenario in WaW.

[Retributar]

I am weak in this phase of the understanding of Japan's Invasion of China!.

However, i think that i can see that if the Japanese would have overextended their involvement in China, perhap's by even locking horn's with the Russian's in Manchuria, that the initial beginning's of War with the U.S. could have been moved up to a later-date [Depending on Prior Objective commitment's,...& other involvement's]...or have been entirely avoided???.

Not only that!,...but because the Japanese were in China & the surrounding region's [burma?][also...Bridge-Over-The-River-Kwai!], Merril's-Marauder's [under the Command of Gen.-Stilwell?]...had to foray/sally-forth out!...to 'contain' the 'Japanese-Expansion' that was directing itself toward India?.

So there is a potentially combustible-mix here!,...if the Japanese had successfully ventured into 'India!',...how could that have/would that have affected the Pre-WW2-PACIFIC THEATER situation?.

[CSS]

IN 1853 Japan was a true Midevel society in ALL facets. America admiral Dewey steamed into Yokahoma port in violation of all know trade treaties and used gunboat diplomacy to force Japan to open up to American trade interest.

The Shoganate realized Japan could not keep isolated any more and began to rapidly absorb western technologies.in 1868 The Meiji restoration sought to create an industrial and defence force to ward off conquest.

So sucessful was the first test that in the Sino-Japanes war of 1894-1895 Japan Trounced China and won considerable territories. They also learned that without political conections that they had to give up lots of those territories. Per Russia, US, France, and Britain

They could not stand up to western powers militarily or politicaly.They then turned to Britain to obtain both.

Thus Britan who had very few european allies at the end of the nineteenth century was Japans choice as her ally. Japan placed orders for British ships. In the 1902 Anglo Japanese treaty, Japan could get modern weapons on demand.

With Britain as her political Ally. Japan launched a suprise attack on Russias Eastern possesions in 1904/1905.Russia should have trounced Japan but due to MASSIVE lack of leadership , Bluderous waste of deployment and horrible coruption...Russia lost, If Russia could have delayed political intervention fro Teddy Rooseveltaks USA, she would have just materially worn Japan down, and won.

America brokered a pro western peace so advantaged to Russia that the saying goes the American ambassidor said to the Victorious Japanese "...And you can keep Tokyo!" Again Japan had won a sucessful war and politically lost most of her gains, via western politics.This time due to USA politics.

The resentment was building.

Incidently prisoners of war of the era were superly treated, almost 4000 Russians asked to stay in Japan after the war the were treated so well.

World War I broke out Japan was OUR ally she cleared the germans of all their pacific possesions in as well as her chinese ones "Tsing Tao beer is originally german!" And even had destroyers in the Mediteraineain patroling against German U-boats. None of the war weary Allies took any of Japans war conquest away from her at the end of WWI leaving only a weakend britain and France and a neutral USA in her percieved role as master of ASIA. In as well she has very large German conquest.

However the politics of the 20s and 30s sought to limit Japans military force. Again Japan was treated as an dangerous upstart and treated like such....more simmering.

The Japanes conquest of German Chinese territories in WWI put Japan in conflict with Chiang's Natiionalist Chinese, so much so that Japan occupied Manchuria in 1931, from this point Japans civilian government crumbled,The Army and Navy became the defacto Japanese government.

in 1936 Japan staged the Marco Polo bridge incident and invaded China. Japans early conquest of china was as easy as it was brutal.

But to achieve final victory as she had such a narrow industrial base and almost no homeland raw materials , she needed western raw materials.BADLY.

Thus began the dance to conuquer China. Japan did an abmsyal job of selling politically to the western powers her need to conquer China, and they needed for western resources to win her Chines war. For six years this went on till the western alliance gradually cut off all resources to Japan.

Japans military was already streched to the braking point when we cut her off. Then like a conered dangerous animal she struck back.

HARD.

Thus begins strategic command Pacific front.

How they fought so hard so long with so little is beyond amazing.

The average american infantry man had 11 people behind him and an average of 22600 lbs of supplies. The Japanes had .5 men behind him and 128 lbs of supplies.

Despite very costly hard fought battles up to the shores of Japan and unbelievable personal sacrifice, they would have still fought and died in thier millions. Japan had not sucessfully been invaded in over 2000 years.

[thetwo]

CSS, when I read your post, I generally agreed. I thought some of your comments were left hanging so I decided I'd try to help out and add some polish.

After Japan's opening to the world, Japan's leaders were afraid of becoming another China. Their choice was to modernize as quickly as possible. To do this, they chose the “best in class” from around the world as their models. You get a snippet of this in the movie, The Last Samurai. (If I remember correctly too, some of the old samurai families became industrialists during this time.)

The fear of being another China resulted in a split personality. It may well have happened anyway, because the most extreme beliefs, in my opinion, often come with their opposites. Be that as it may, the Japanese leadership believed themselves both extremely morally and culturally superior to anyone else in the world and simultaneously the weakest. This simultaneity led them, ultimately to very dark places.

The destruction of Japanese democracy in the 1920's, which CSS alluded to didn't just happen. “Happen” is a nice passive verb that politicians and corporate executives like to use to avoid blame. Japanese democracy was deliberately and decisively undermined, because certain groups considered it weak. There are a few good, English language books on the subject, but its been many years since I've read them or seen a bibliography.

One of the results of this systematic destruction of the relatively new governmental system, was that when the Army took charge (not the military as a whole) they, both with laws and with extra-legal means, set out to destroy all free media in the country. Something that is basically true to this day in Japan. (It might be debated that Japan has a free press today, but I would argue that Gen. MacArthur failed to destroy the Japanese Militarist press after the war and they still dominate, even the tabloids.)

This is the period when the Army changed the history of the samurai and began the national indoctrination of the entire population into the “new” bushido. Combining a code of bushido that required all Japanese to give their lives for Japan, a press with one voice, and a Japanese superiority labeling all non-Japanese as sub-human and the the pieces were in place for Japan's aggressions. (Documentation for Japanese research into a microwave weapon during the WWII shows they used “monkeys” as test subjects. “Monkey” was a euphemism for human, prisoner test subjects.)

Even though the Japanese had not wanted to become another China, they were perfectly willing to do unto others. Very quickly they developed colonial ambitions. This will seem odd to westerners, because in time frame we are talking about, (1920's and 1930's for the China War) some in the West were already wondering when the European empires would begin freeing their possessions. Japan was a latecomer and wanted to catch up. It wanted to be a major player.

During World War I, Japan joined in the war against Germany in hopes of being rewarded later. It should be noted that Japan began making demands of China during WWI, while the Europeans were occupied elsewhere. Japan received the German concessions in China and that only whetted its appetite.

CSS mentioned efforts to limit Japanese arms between the wars. I can only guess that what he is referring to are the naval building treaties that were attempts to avoid arms races between the major powers. In reading about those, in years past, everyone felt put upon by those treaties and individual country responses, through their building programs were interesting. To say that it was aimed only at Japan isn't accurate. All countries were strapped for cash, but economically, the US had emerged with the strongest economy and could have out built both the British Empire and Japan. The building program it had underway at the end of WWI would have done just that.

The Japanese though had one handicap, one that would hinder them during WWII, American code breakers were reading their diplomatic mail. Historians for decades had wondered why Japan had accepted relative tonnage numbers that were so disadvantageous. While I have found some Wikipedia sites questionable (and others highly biased), the one for the Washington Naval Treaty gets this right. The American negotiators knew what the Japanese would accept as their rock bottom tonnage. Japan ultimately withdrew from the treaty. It should be remembered, that Japan had commitments in only one ocean, while the United States, the British, and French had obligations over much wider areas. The Japanese used this to advantage at the start of the war.

To my knowledge, the Japanese invasion of Manchuria was the first outright aggression in the pursuit of resources. While I am quite knowledgeable on most of WWII for both sides, I must admit, that I am weak on details of the invasion of China. I recall that China was highly balkanized and the Japanese skillfully played local warlords off against each other.

The documentation of the rape of Nanking is more extensive than some realize. There were Westerners in the city. If I remember rightly, one of the best records was from a German diplomat who recorded everything he saw and sent it out.

As for the Japanese military being stretched to the breaking point then striking back hard, I have to disagree. The military was not being rolled back on any front and was fighting well. The only field of endeavor in which they had any difficulty was the limited aspect of fighting the Flying Tigers. (I should note here, that President Roosevelt first signed the order for terror bombing of Japanese cities in the first half of 1941. This was part of a authorization for 100 fighters and 100 bombers for General Chennault. Wish I could remember where I saw this document.)

The Japanese were in a bind for resources and I think there was might have a been a foreign currency problem as well. Cutting off those resources can't be called illegitimate expressions of unhappiness. I find apologists for the Japanese expansion south disingenuous when they attempt it. There is a cause and effect relationship, but it is not exclusive and it since it is based on rationales it could have been decided differently.

[Retributar]

"CSS & thetwo!!!",...

Exceptional-Reporting-Work by the both of you!!!.

We-Need-More-Of-This-Type-Of-Contribution!!!.

I am getting an education out of it!. We need the REAL-REASON'S why the JAPANESE went to war with the U.S.A. ... and how they eventually went to war with the U.S.A.!...in order to make this game..."LIVE!"..to be "ALIVE",...& to be as 'REAL' as possible to the 'Game-Player-Participants!'.

[Nupremal]

For reading, I would suggest some EXCELLENT books available from the USA for low prices on CD-ROM. These would be from the US Army on the China-Burma-India Theatre, General Stilwell and his command problems. Lots of information on the Chinese and all the problems they had. It is good source material - much of it first-hand and well documented. I did a lot of research when I was creating a world scenario game involving PG2.