Help with cities please.

[Pandur]

maybe it sounds dumb, but i have problems creating a more or less reasonable city.

i have a map, the natural formed landscape is easy for me and mostly done, but when it comes to areas wich are shaped by humans i totaly fail.

cities are "artificial" but the ones i do look even lifeless.

how do you guys build cities into your map!?

i create the map mostly out of a picture in my head. thats verry simple for me and works great as i dont have to look up a source all the time.

i think about landscapes until i found some "picture" i would like a mission in, and i shape it than in the editor to look as close as the picture i imagine.

now the problem, i cant "imagine" a city in a way i could simply rebuild it in the editor. iam a bit lost at that point. thats probably why my cities and towns look totaly off becouse i just build em. no plan evolved.

here you have a overview on the basic map. main problem, as said, the first big city/town area.

i tried to work around with foliage and walls and such stuff, but i scraped the results and reverted back to this version all the time so far.

about 1100m broad and 3600m long;

[hoolaman]

All I could suggest would be to remember that any town or city exists because it is (or was) at some sort of trade crossroads or has a watercourse running through it. In any city that spans a river there will be several crossing points and roughly equal numbers of building on both sides. In any town on a major road or highway, often the centre of town will straddle that.

Also remember there will often be an "old city" maybe a modern CBD and more sparse suburbs built around, and further out there is going to be farming or smaller villages, just think where the nucleus of a city is built, usually on the riverbank or the more favourable land, then build out in circles like people do for real.

[the Fighting Seabee]

Pandur,

That map looks awesome. It looks like Afghanistan. I really hope you integrate this map into a mission and put it up on cmmods.

There is, however, something I noticed that didn't look natural. The river should go all the way up to the top. As a geology major, the map would be much more natural looking if the river ran all the way through it. Tactically, it creates choke points at bridges and shallow areas, which CM:SF needs more of.

Other than that, the only thing I can say about towns is that you really would have to look at some google earth pictures to see how things look in different countries. Some cities are based on a grid. Some around a circle. Others around the features of the land. Some are just willy nilly. From what I have seen of Afghanistan, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Afghanistan (and many other countries) look exactly like that. Pretty damn good if you ask me.

[Cpl Steiner]

I think the "Rock Around The Block" scenario (designer?) is a very good example of how to do urban maps. It has a building site, a car scrap yard and lots of other interesting features.

In "Sim City" terms, any urban landscape will be zoned into industrial, commercial and residential areas, often quite close together. Unfortunately it is hard to represent each type of area in CM:SF as it doesn't have specific "Factory" tiles like CMx1 had but with a bit of imagination and labelling...

Also drawn from "Sim City", long roads connecting residential areas to industrial areas will often be lined with shops, which the commuters use on their way to and from work.

[Pandur]

All I could suggest would be to remember that any town or city exists because it is (or was) at some sort of trade crossroads or has a watercourse running through it. In any city that spans a river there will be several crossing points and roughly equal numbers of building on both sides. In any town on a major road or highway, often the centre of town will straddle that.

i tried to figure in some of this thinking already, i have 2 river/creek crossings, both important as they have to be occupied by the player.

a "town center" with 2 storry commercial buildings, also needs to be accupied.

i dicided to build the major part of the city to the right as it has the higher ground, the left side of the creek looks like it could be flooded first in case of flash flodding(sp!?) so i tried to make the close sourounding of the creek a bit more sparse and poor looking.

I think the "Rock Around The Block" scenario (designer?) is a very good example of how to do urban maps. It has a building site, a car scrap yard and lots of other interesting features.

hm, i just downloaded the new rock around the block scenarios some days ago, didnt played into it so far, i will fire it up and look for some ideas there too.

That map looks awesome. It looks like Afghanistan. I really hope you integrate this map into a mission and put it up on cmmods.

actualy the mission has already player and enemy forces, i also expirimented with AI plans here but the bigest reason why it is still unfinished is that i couldnt test run it with my old Gfx card.

now that changed i think, at least i looks much better FPS whise, so i start to refine the map in the areas where it is needed.

unfortunately that leaves the room for improvement somewhat shrinked. i just cant build the super detailed most awsome city as it would probably eat up more FPS that i have to spare.

There is, however, something I noticed that didn't look natural. The river should go all the way up to the top.

thats reasonable, but i intended the river to be a creek of some sort and it should be a well/spring up there. the thing is the vally ends up there more or less.

Tactically, it creates choke points at bridges and shallow areas, which CM:SF needs more of.

hehe, i have quiet some choke point naturaly formed so far. see the picture->

here for everyone, the map as it looks in 3D view, total player force is to the bottom of the screen.

unfortunatley i cant get the whole map on a screen better than that. its to long.

EDIT:

i better use the thumbnail, as it breaks the dimensions of the site here, makes it hard to read the posts.

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by Cpl Steiner:

[QB] I think the "Rock Around The Block" scenario (designer?) is a very good example of how to do urban maps. /QB]

Well, thanks very much...

Actually if you look at the "Rock" map without the trees, flavor objects and cars, it would be very dull. I think these things really make all the difference, especially cars are an easy way to turn a "ghost town" into something believable.

And it is amazing how many trees there actually are in towns and cities, and not just in parks.

A good example is GMC's "Just another Day" - there is tons of doodads placed around the town. You really see that there are people living.

I use some "tricks" to make easy recognizable buildings, my personal favorite is the "gas station" which is nothing more than a low building in a compound with acces roads and low walls some barrels, tires, &c and a car or two. Easy to make, takes up space and looks nice.

I like making densely built areas with a lot of buildings and walls to create narrow alleys or small passageways between the buildings leading to a courtyard or ending in a dead end. (not that many in "Rock", as this was more meant to resemble a modern type urban area) This will make movement more interesting and offers tactical choice. I try to give the player a real reason to use the blast command.

To add some flavor (and cover space) I place several buildings next to each other to create larger buildings in various forms. This way you can also build courtyards with some benches or a tree. And you can use roofs for terraces if you connect it through a balcony from an adjacent building. I try to use varied window and door positions, and blank walls.

In cities in southern europe and the mid east, it is a common feature that the buildings have less windows to the street and balconies and lot of windows to the inner courtyard. There are also often high walls around the compounds which protect from curious eyes (and bullets).

In general I'd suggest to look at things in the context how they are used. Buildings and walls have a reason why they are put on a certain spot. Try to think what the owner would find useful to have around (a place to park his car, a shed for the donkey, a wall to keep the neighbor's cat out of his garden).

Though, of course a map this big is a helluva lot of work. I don't envy you. (Working on a big city myself - and it sucks! ) Hope you can still use some of these tips.

But the map looks great so far. Looking forward to the scenario.

[Pandur]

i reworked the first big city into something more visualy pleasing. it works better than i though with some time and patience.

birdstrike;

i looked into you map and please, i would like to know how you placed the civilian cars in a way they dont need to be spotted by the player side!?

i didnt saw that so far and was reluctant to do it myself as i dont find it too practical if the player does not see them if they are not spotted.

did you simply added them to the "blue" side!?

[Chelco]

Pandur,

That's a great map!

I was wondering how easy on the framerates your map is. I ask you because I had very bad framerates with a map I made that was actually smaller than yours (1.5 X 1.5 Km).

Anyway, keep up the good work. Looking forward to play in your map.

Cheers,

[birdstrike]

Pandur:

Yes, the reason they are visible is because they are added to the blue side. If you add them to the red side, this will solve your spotting concerns. The vehicles are only spotted as blue units see them.

The reason for adding them to the blue side in my scenario was because of the way friendly fire is currently handled (or not handled ).

Red vehicles will stop bullets from blue, blue vehicles will stop bullets from red.

I wanted to give the attacker (blue in this case) the possibility to use cars for cover, therefore I added them to the blue side (with the negative effect that they are visible all the time).

[Pandur]

chelco;

thats a good question! actually i dont know fure sure.

fact is i could build this thing with my old Gfx card but as soon as shooting started in the first test run it got unplayable.

with my new Gfx card the FPS got quiet a bit better for the bigger maps so i try to refine it currently and have a simple performance test soon.

somehow i fear the Gfx card is up for this, this time, but my unchanged processor(E6400DualCore)may throw the towel(again ).

i will see today or tomorrow and post what i found out about preformance.

birdstrike;

i guess my foreign english wasnt realy clear, i actually asked becouse i want to do it the same way as you did it.

i feel "decoration" cars do not make sense if you dont see em, so i add them for the player side too.

and, does someone of you know if i would have "lags" in editor with ATI left klick option turned off when i need to turn it on to play!?

try to imagine this, i can not click flavour object around walls and houses, if more flavour objects are close together, i have as many chaces to delete/rotate/move the one as the other.

means its a PAIN in the A**!

sometimes i have to remove houses or walls to delete or move a object, becouse the mouse it that unprecise.

add to that the loadtime of a map of that size, it takes ages :mad:

however, i make progress

[birdstrike]

Your English is fine, my eyes are getting worse.

[Pandur]

Chelco,

about the FPS; i decided to delete all enemy forces and place them new. i totaly forgott what i intended the AI to do at what time, and the AI was generally placed in a rush.

also since i reworked the city AI placing was messed up.

so, my test run will have to wait until i sorted that out. at least iam positive that the new placing and AI plan will be most unpleasent for the player